Our Reliance on Luke Ball and Lenny Hayes (UPDATED)

[Armoooo]

Now there is no denying that Hayes and Balls are great players, but I think it is fair to say that they are not good enough to get a team into the finals by themselves...

I just found some very disturbing stats that show just how heavily we rely upon those two...

There are the average tackles per game for each team

Sydney 62.3
Brisbane 59.6
Geelong 58.4
Collingwood 57.3
Essendon 54.3
Melbourne 53.6
Adelaide 53.4
St Kilda 52.7
----------------------------
North Melbourne 52.7
Hawthorn 52.6
Port Adelaide 52.4
Carlton 51.4
Western Bulldogs 49.1
Fremantle 48.7
West Coast 48.3
Richmond 46.9

We are 8th in tackles in the comp, that isn't too bad, could be better but considering how we've been travelling this year we'd be wise to take it...

These are each teams top two tacklers and their totals...
St Kilda – Lenny Hayes (6.64), Luke Ball (6.45)
Sydney – Jude Bolton (6.36), Brett Kirk (6)
Geelong – Jimmy Bartel (5.75) James Kelly (5.45)
Port Adelaide – Dominic Casisi (6.4), Shaun Burgoyne (4.62)
Collingwood – Scott Burns (5.9), Shane O’Bree (4.64)
Carlton – Adam Bentick (7), Andrew Carrazzo (3.45)
West Coast – Matthew Priddis (5.75), Tyson Stenglein (4.27)
Melbourne – James McDonald (5.25), Brent Moloney (4.75)
----------------------------------
Brisbane – Luke Power (5.27), Rhan Hooper (4.64)
Adelaide – Scott Thompson (5.25), Robert Shirley (4.33)
Western Bulldogs – Daniel Cross (5), Matthew Boyd (4)
Hawthorn – Luke Hodge (4.71), Brad Sewell (4.2)
Kangaroos – Adam Simpson (4.45), Matthew Campbell (4.2)
Fremantle – Josh Carr (4.4), Ryan Crowley (4.2)
Essendon – Sam Lonergan (4.12), Mark McVeigh (3.75)
Richmond – Kane Johnson (3.89), Nathan Foley (3.73)

This is where it gets disturbing, have a look at each teams top two tacklers % to their teams overall average tackles per game...

St Kilda – 25%
Carlton – 20%
West Coast – 20%
Sydney – 19%
Port Adelaide – 19%
Geelong – 19%
Melbourne – 19%
Adelaide – 18%
-------------------
Collingwood – 18%
Fremantle – 18%
Western Bulldogs – 18%
Brisbane – 17%
Hawthorn – 17%
Kangaroos – 16%
Richmond – 16%
Essendon – 15%


As you can see our numbers just do not go along with the rest of the leagues....

And it gets even worse, evern though we have the two best tacklers in the league, have a look at each team's third best tackler...

Sydney _ Keiran Jack (5.45) 9%
Geelong – Gary Ablett (5.1) 9%
Brisbane – Michael Rischetelli (4.37) 8%
West Coast – Chris Masten (4.2) 9%
Melbourne – Brock McLean (4.18) 8%
North Melbourne – Daniel Harris (4.18) 8%
Hawthorn – Cyril Rioli (4) 8%
Collingwood – Scott Pendlebury (3.9) 7%
------------------
Essendon – Leroy Jetta (3.75) 7%
Carlton – Chris Judd (3.7) 7%
Western Bulldogs – Mitchell Hahn – (3.64) 7%
Port Adelaide – Kane Cornes (3.55) 7%
Richmond - Matthew White (3.44) 7%
Fremantle – Byron Schammer (3.4) 7%
St Kilda – Leigh Montagna (3.27) 6%
Adelaide – Richard Douglas (3.18) 6%

So while we have the best two tacklers in the league our third best tackler is the second worst in numbers when compared to his counterparts...

Now these stats may see arbitrary, you have to consider this, how many teams play as much stop start footy as us?, look at the Bulldogs and they have very low rates because that isn't a part of their game, they are all about run and carry...
Our game is based around pressure, intensity and tackling yet we are only the 8th best team for tackling, and after Hayes and Ball we still struggle...

Ross needs to put the challenge to the team, corelling players is no longer enough, half arsed tackles that just get you brushed off are not enough, we need to start sticking tackles that dispossess the opposition and make them hurt, take the run out of their legs...

If we are going to play this type of football we have to mean it, we have to be harder, stronger and show no mercy, I want teams to be afraid of St Kilda like they were a few years ago and like they were of the Brisbane era...

BRING THE PAIN BOYS!!

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UPDATED
----------------------------------------------------
Another stat that I found quite interesting that I forgot to put in is what the team's tackling ladder would look like if you took the top 2 tacklers from each team out, we would plummet from 8th to 14th and fall even further behind the pack...

Sydney 49.94
Brisbane 49.69
Geelong 47.2
Collingwood 46.76
Essendon 46.43
North Melbourne 44.05
Melbourne 43.6
Adelaide 43.82
----------------------------
Hawthorn 43.69
Port Adelaide 41.38
Carlton 41
Fremantle 40.1
Western Bulldogs 40
St Kilda 39.6
Richmond 39.28
West Coast 38.28

[matrix]

any chance of the link for those stats Armoooo?

im a bit of a stats buff

[Armoooo]

I just went to footywire and figured out the %s myself

[matrix]

nice work!!

very interesting stats mate...thanks for that.

cant say too many teams would be afraid of us at the moment
of course we arre always a possible threat when u have the likes of bally and lenny apply the pressure they do, but some of the others need to step up i think.

[Dis Believer]

Just another stat to support the very basic problem of a team leaving too much to too few.

[Shaggy]

Looking at the stats Lenny, Ball, Bolton and Kirk are going to spend most of the match hugging each other.

[ratismeat]

Looking at the stats Lenny, Ball, Bolton and Kirk are going to spend most of the match hugging each other.

Good call, time for dancing lessons.

[GiGi]

Looking at the stats Lenny, Ball, Bolton and Kirk are going to spend most of the match hugging each other.

Mmmm, I wouldn't mind being in the middle of that !!!

[matrix]

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Looking at the stats Lenny, Ball, Bolton and Kirk are going to spend most of the match hugging each other.

well if is tagging someone other than dal santo or joey then that is surely a win for us...bally and lenny can be tagged and they will still get the hard ball and the tackles...

this also means they leave bj alone and if he runs through the midfield and forward 50 expect all hell to brake loose...including a st kilda win...

[Teflon]

Just another stat to support the very basic problem of a team leaving too much to too few.

Exactly. I mean dropping to 14th after taking out Ball/Hayes is deplorable.

Turn em over Ross and bring in some who CAN lay a tackle that sticks FFS.

[Armoooo]

Bump

IMO (assuming current form continues) RL may have addressed our single biggest weakness... Our reliance on Hayes and Ball when it comes to tackling.

Ball has averaged 8.5 tackles in the past two weeks and Lenny laid 8 last night, but for a change they have actually had some support.

Montagna had 12 last night and 7 last week, Geary has had 6 the last two weeks (probably keeping him in the 22), Ray has averaged 6, Gram 5.5, Dal Santo 5.

This is a fantastic effort and if it continues we WILL make the top 4, our aggression at the man has been beautiful to watch so far and you will find a lot of teams will struggle to cope with it, especially those who have slimmed down to accomodate for the running game.

Footy goes under paradigms, one trend could be strength, you can beat that with speed, you can beat speed with height etc. I tell you what toughness and forcing contests will beat running every day of the week, because after Bally has thrown you into the ground a few times you will lose a lot of run...

Keep it up boys...

[Teflon]

super post Armo.

Im staggered at the increase in hardness early from Joey/Dal.

Nowhere was it more evident about our reliance on Hayes and Ball than last years Hawk prelim loss......we lost Ball...they had to many in/under for Hayes on his own and we got smashed by Mitchell and co out of the middle.

[Bernard Shakey]

Lenny coming in set up last nights win.

A fit Ball and Lenny will make for a very interesting season for StKFC.

[bobmurray]

apart from the tackles...how would we be looking if Gram could kick....

[Solar]

interesting this is one area that RL said in the sydney debrief will keep players in the team. (see geary and 6 tackles plus heaps of forward pressure)

[Sainterone]

maybe the stats posted above were from 2008 (without Baker)?

we are a much better side (tackles wise and other areas too) with Bakes in and fit.

[Armoooo]

maybe the stats posted above were from 2008 (without Baker)?

we are a much better side (tackles wise and other areas too) with Bakes in and fit.

Yeah they were from 2008, but even apart from Baker we have drastically increased our tackling across the board (While Ball and Hayes have managed to maintain their impressive averages).

The mentality really seems to have gotten across that no matter where you play, no matter how tired you are, you MUST ALWAYS tackle, tackle, tackle and I love seeing it.

[gringo]

As said in another post Neil Craig the old adelaide miser said in todays age he'd never seen as much pressure applied in a rnd2 game.

That pressure like that is applied in finals and the crows youngsters can learn from the saints that pressure can be applied for long periods. I hope this is RLs plans come to fruition.

S.Crawford said teams implementing the rolling zone for the first time are not going to win enough games as it takes time to really apply it in battle. It would be great if the boys have finally worked out his style and have a break out year like Geelong had.

If they can stay as hard at it for the rest of the season look out.

[longtimesaint]

Is the tackle average relating to last year? -so far this season we have laid 162 tackles -an average of 81, which would put us at the top of the list.

[Armoooo]

Yeah it was done halfway through last year, when we were struggling a bit, it was what I considered to be one of our biggest weaknesses last year.

This year it is a completely different story however...

[BAM! (shhhh)]

If ever there was a perfect post to bump!

Agreed with Armo back when he posted this initially, and agree with him now - we know that Ball and Hayes are elite tacklers (and even in Friday's tacklefest, it was amazing to watch some of Hayes tackles - scenarios where you'd expect a hipswing to dislodge him, or him to only apply a couple of hands to the back he manages to wrap up his opponent and drag them down) and will always put up good tackle numbers.

It's good to see Dal Santo reverting to form and putting up his previous numbers here as well.

Seeing other mids jump their numbers up so significantly is awesome. Joey was great on Friday, and Farren Ray was not someone I expected to contribute so well in thsi area. Jason Gram also ought get credit for the lift and commitment (to the extent of almost hurting himself, and then continuing to chase the tackle when he came back on). The degree to which the rest of the team has also lifted here makes it clear this has been a teamwide commitment.

That kind of commitment is going to make St Kilda a very tough team to play against.

[Red]

In that half time production of the Saints week during the game on friday.

Lyon basically stated to the players that their positions in the side relied on

them being able to chase, harass and tackle. It was obviously a key focus of

the coaching panel over the summer.