This will sound like heresy

[joffaboy]

And I want to make it absolutely clear that this is in no way a critisism of the greatest od all Saints players.

My question is....

Is St.Kilda better off from a structure and psychological perspective now Robert Harvey has retired?

Again I say that this is now way a critisism of Harvey. He is beyond critisism and any team is better off with him in the team...

Mabye my critisism is with the mindset of the other mids who may have always thought that when in trouble we could always turn to Harvey.

Well Harv's is gone and with it the last of the old Saints. Now the Riewoldt's and Dal Santo's and the Goddards own this team it may be time for them to pu their stamp on our club and its playing culture.

Harv's needed a change of scenery and mabye so did the Saints. It is so good to see our midfield so hard at it - out tackling and pressure without the ball so encouraging and our overall team performance so even - not the usual Saints way of relying on our marquee players winning the game for us.

Grant Thomas mentioned it a couple of weeks back that our culture was one of looking to individuals and messiahs to take our club forward. Rightly or wrongly Harv's was seen as one of those messiahs.

Now we HAVE to do it without that mindset and so far - early days - post Harv's we seem to be doing this.

Ross Lyon told the playing group they were kidding themselves if they thought a 30 y.o midfielder would win them a flag when telling htm about the reasons why they didn't take Cousins.

Mabye this mindset of not hoping for the individual to come to the Saints and win us glory is permeating through the club.

I for one hope so. And if Lyon is the one achieving it - all power to him.

As I stated - this is just a discussion point and not a critisism of the great man Harvey.

I also have notived a distinct lack of talk about Harv's from supporters and bemoaning the fact that he isn't there. Mabye the mindset is also going through the supporters as well - or mabye it is because we have won both games this year with our mids doing well.

Am I being too harsh or is there merit in my thoughts?

[saintly]

nah, i don't think you are being too harsh. i am sure that some mid filed players also though they could rely on harves. Just like we all did. now its up to the 'new' look midfiled and others must now take up the slack., coz, if they don't the saints won't win too many games.

[Beej]

You say it's not a criticism of the great man but what you are effectively saying is that he held us back.

This is the third or fourth time I've seen this point of view bandied about the forum and I think it's ridiculous.

Who's to say that we wouldn't be 2 and zip had Harvey not retired.

Yeah, we've won the first two games of the season and played some decent football. Is there any need to suggest that the reason for this is because Harvey is not there? Come on now...

I wonder if Essendon fans were thinking along these lines when Hird retired. I wonder if Collingwood fans were suggesting they were better off without Buckley. I doubt it.

How quickly we forget...

[SaintDebi]

The team can never be better without Harves, but I do agree that maybe a number of the boys realise that we need them to step up now to fill the void.

[Sobraz]

Fair call, but I think the Messiah talk is a tad overrated... I dont think anyone honestly sat around for Harvs to win a flag for us...

Looking at the team this year, I look at Ray as a direct replacement for Harvs, and at this early stage, Rays output has been equal to, if not greater than Harvs at his best in the last year or 2....

If Harvs had stayed on, we probably would have got Ray anyhow, but as a straight swap, i see us as a stronger unit this year....

[HardSaint]

Brave post Joffa.

My worry leading into the game last night was the absence of Harves who IMO was always the main reason we beat the Crows at AAMI through his extra effort and lift.
The fact that we did it without the great man is a really significant development. I think that doing it also without overly relying on Riewoldt was a good sign as well.

Back to your main point though, it is an interesting perspective and echos what a few of us have quietly felt for a good 3-4 years, in that Harvey's continued high standard might have had more to do with others leaving the heavy lifting to him and not putting their hands up.
This may have just been purely situational and no ones fault and Harv's presence out there created this dynamic.

[Legendary]

I've always said we would win a flag the year after Harvey retired ...

You make some good points on a difficult topic Joffa

[bigcarl]

I've always said we would win a flag the year after Harvey retired ...

can we have it in writing

[WayneJudson42]

Good luck hoping that some people won't take it the wrong way.

Without doubt, this is a new era, and I reckon it has a lot to do with new ideas and people from the outside who are bringing "premiership" ideas and leadership to the club... as opposed to Harvey leaving.

Yes, we have suffered the Messiah complex, and these changes were set in place with GT and his rotating Captaincy policy... rightly or wrongly.

Maybe it's just a fresh message getting through? Who knows?

Either way, I'm seeing a different approach already this year. Although we haven't kicked as many goals, I can see a lot of the same aggression and commitment as we had back in '04... so far.

One thing that cannot be disputed is that too much was left to too few over the past few years, and we never had 2nd tier players who could step up and turn a game. RL refered to these players as mentally weak.

As devil's advocate, whilst Harvey earned his spot over the last few years... it could be argued that his spot should have been given to a kid... given so many people's penchant for "playing kids".

[joffaboy]

You say it's not a criticism of the great man but what you are effectively saying is that he held us back.

You obviously cant read.

This is the third or fourth time I've seen this point of view bandied about the forum and I think it's ridiculous.

So a view that is a figment of your imagination is ridiculous to you - hmmm fair enough.

Who's to say that we wouldn't be 2 and zip had Harvey not retired.

We dont live in parrellel worlds. Facts are that we are two zip and harv's retired last year.

That is the fact - the rest is like your other delusion - supposition and hypothetical.

Yeah, we've won the first two games of the season and played some decent football. Is there any need to suggest that the reason for this is because Harvey is not there? Come on now...

Why not? You scared to look at alternatives? Hard Saint makes the point that we usually beat Adelaide at AAMI only with Harv's leading us forward as he always did brilliantly.

Last night we were without Harv's and we won going away.

I wonder if Essendon fans were thinking along these lines when Hird retired. I wonder if Collingwood fans were suggesting they were better off without Buckley. I doubt it.

Dont know or care. Neither was a mark on Harv's and neither played in the club that I support.

How quickly we forget...

Forget nothing. I saw Harv's first game and his last and was amazed at his skill and work ethic and fairplay every time I saw him play.

A true great of the game. Where did i deny this.

Apparently some here still suffer from the messiah complex and haven't the lateral thinking ability to understand the OP.

You obviously fall into this category. Leave the discussion to people who obviously have a bit of insight.

[joffaboy]

Good luck hoping that some people won't take it the wrong way.

yeah i know. Some people can objectively view a subject like this without their usual defensive attitude.

Understandable and basically reinforces the view that some have a messiah complex and can understand the big issues involved.

You are correct too much left to to few. In the 90's it was Harvs - Plugger - Winmar - Loewe. This decade Harvs - Riewoldt - Max and Lenny - with the rest playing cameo's.

Well our messiah's have gone now - its time to aim up as a team.

What I have seen so mfar suggests we are doing so. Long way to go but mabye we have changed our mindset and it is a new era for the Saints.

[WayneJudson42]

Good luck hoping that some people won't take it the wrong way.

yeah i know. Some people can objectively view a subject like this without their usual defensive attitude.

Understandable and basically reinforces the view that some have a messiah complex and can understand the big issues involved.

You are correct too much left to to few. In the 90's it was Harvs - Plugger - Winmar - Loewe. This decade Harvs - Riewoldt - Max and Lenny - with the rest playing cameo's.

Well our messiah's have gone now - its time to aim up as a team.

What I have seen so mfar suggests we are doing so. Long way to go but mabye we have changed our mindset and it is a new era for the Saints.

To put it bluntly... and I challenge anyone to deny this... the tail has wagged the doc for too long at this club... starting from Prez's all the way down.

Mate, if the first 2 rounds are any indication... and probably too early to judge... we are further along than many would think.

I reckon there might be a few on here owing Walls an apology for yesterday's article.

[joffaboy]

Mate, if the first 2 rounds are any indication... and probably too early to judge... we are further along than many would think.

Yeah I would agree. It is probably too early to judge. Also agree about the tail wagging the dog.

I reckon there might be a few on here owing Walls an apology for yesterday's article.

I reserve my apology for a couple of months.

God I hope Walls is right for once.

[WayneJudson42]

Mate, if the first 2 rounds are any indication... and probably too early to judge... we are further along than many would think.

Yeah I would agree. It is probably too early to judge. Also agree about the tail wagging the dog.

I reckon there might be a few on here owing Walls an apology for yesterday's article.

I reserve my apology for a couple of months.

God I hope Walls is right for once.

I thought you didn't believe in God?

[stinger]

You say it's not a criticism of the great man but what you are effectively saying is that he held us back.

This is the third or fourth time I've seen this point of view bandied about the forum and I think it's ridiculous.

Who's to say that we wouldn't be 2 and zip had Harvey not retired.

Yeah, we've won the first two games of the season and played some decent football. Is there any need to suggest that the reason for this is because Harvey is not there? Come on now...

I wonder if Essendon fans were thinking along these lines when Hird retired. I wonder if Collingwood fans were suggesting they were better off without Buckley. I doubt it.

How quickly we forget...

yep........was wondering how long it would take for one of the self professed experts to start trotting out this sort of garbage.......

[starsign]

Harves or no Harves there is a lot to like about the Saints at the moment and a lot to take away from our first 2 wins Maybe, just maybe it has been drummed into the group for a while ...you've gotta do it for Harves ...now they just have to get up there and go those few steps further for their own sakes
Certainly his efforts will be missed straight off but we have made more significant gains which certainly off-set and leave us well in front from last season
ie
the return of Bakes ....very significant , we have missed his hardness and I recon the boys grow a bit and just love him out there on the paddock alongside them
the great lift and impact from Dal , Kozi and Gardiner
The presence of BJ & Grammy in the midfield via the great pick-up of Ray and to a lesser note Zac and further development from Geary
the improvement in Joey, Gilbert and possibly the hope we can get a lot more out of the Clarkes
I could go on , but the champ has retired and we are moving on

[matrix]

well if the team can never be better without harves then we will never win a premiership.
we never got one during his career at the saints so if we cant get better its logical then that we wont win one.
not trying to be nit picky here.

but i agree with joffa in a way.
and i can fully see his points

[sunsaint]

I disagree on almost all counts including the point you make about the "greatest of all saints players" should be immune from critcism.

And you claim there has been no lamenting from posters about Harveys' abscence. That was the essence of why I wanted cousins. RH was always going to leave a hole, and many people stated as much.

If, and I stress IF in your eyes, Harvey was holding back the side, then in my mind that would only go to prove that we drafted the wrong people. Because if they sat back and said I'll let Harvey carry the load & pull us out of trouble, then they never intended to strive to be the games best, and if you dont want to be a better player in today's game, then you probabaly wont last very long. Even Harvey strived to be better in his early days, he was not the champion player that retired decades later.

But the glaring flaw in your your logic: we should get rid of Roo, NDS and Goddard just in case they become champions of the game, and their team mates start to, or worse still are already relying on them.

You have to smile when posters put out this kind of post and then get uppity when others disagree, talk about an ego.

[fugazi]

Joffaboy...had the same thoughts...even before he retired for many of the reasons you describe. He was my favourite player, but with his retirement it almost creates a clean slate and the boys can do it for themselves and know they have to step up to his level.

[stinger]

You have to smile when posters put out this kind of post and then get uppity when others disagree, talk about an ego.

never a truer word posted mate.......and you make your point without abuse and without attacking the poster offensively......you are to be admired.....too few follow your lead...

[joffaboy]

But the glaring flaw in your your logic: we should get rid of Roo, NDS and Goddard just in case they become champions of the game, and their team mates start to, or worse still are already relying on them.

You have to smile when posters put out this kind of post and then get uppity when others disagree, talk about an ego.

Another one who obviously doesn't understand the OP.

As WJ42 should have expected this type of response

Not about ego at all - it is simply about having the objectivity to understand a premis.

Seeing everything in absolutes only clouds your judgement. Not saying it is correct or not - just stating a POV.

Obviously uou have some difficulties understanding this simple concept. Oh well too bad.

[joffaboy]

Joffaboy...had the same thoughts...even before he retired for many of the reasons you describe. He was my favourite player, but with his retirement it almost creates a clean slate and the boys can do it for themselves and know they have to step up to his level.

Please whatever you do - dont agree - you will be accused of saying Harvey held the team back

See the ridgid thinkers on this thread cant comprehend it wasn't Harvey holding the rest of the team back - It was the rest of the team resting on their laurels and allowing Harv's to do it for them

But hey dont let sublties get in the way of the delusions of the messiahists

[stinger]

another putdown jb???????.....

[stinger]

See the ridgid thinkers on this thread cant comprehend it wasn't Harvey holding the rest of the team back - It was the rest of the team resting on their laurels and allowing Harv's to do it for them

But hey dont let sublties get in the way of the delusions of the messiahists

and now a put down of the entire team ffs.......... .....just who is delusional around here?????.....not hard to guess.....

[cowboy18]

My question is....

Is St.Kilda better off from a structure and psychological perspective now Robert Harvey has retired?

No, particularly with respect to the latter.

I don't think there's any evidence to support the contention. He never really represented the cult of the individual in the same way as Lockett, Winmar, etc.

Harvey was always part of the structure rather than something it revolved around. In later years he played a diminished role (part of a rotation) where his contributions were very different to what he had done during his halcyon years.

I can't recall times when strategies were built around his efforts, the team goals were never constrained by Harvey's ability. I imagine that the structural attributes most affected would be tackling at versatility but from memory he did enough last year to warrant being one of our best 22 with respect to his tackling, second efforts and work around the field.

Psychologically? I can't think of anyone who demonstrated courage and leadership by example more than him. He took his turn with those things.

What evidence would support that we're better off structurally and psychologically without him?