The Modern Game

[Mr Magic]

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

ahhh...now we get to it...the list is as good as 04...

sure...

I didn't say anything about the '04 list.

Is what I wrote incorrect?

In your opinion which 2 or 3 coaches wouldn't want to swap lists?

IMO Geelong and Hawthorn would definitely stick with theirs.
Some would argue that the Footscray list would be better than ours - not me, though.

Other than those two or three I think that any other coach in the comp would take our mix of players over their own lists.

You think the following woud swich positions with Ross Lyon:-
Malthouse
Wallace
Roos
Voss
Williams
Ratten
Craig
Laidley
This list includes the other 4 of last year's finalists as well as 4 other teams purported to be on the rise this season.

(I'm not talking about cherry picking a palyer or 2 or 3, but swapping teams completely.)

[rodgerfox]

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

ahhh...now we get to it...the list is as good as 04...

sure...

I didn't say anything about the '04 list.

Is what I wrote incorrect?

In your opinion which 2 or 3 coaches wouldn't want to swap lists?

IMO Geelong and Hawthorn would definitely stick with theirs.
Some would argue that the Footscray list would be better than ours - not me, though.

Other than those two or three I think that any other coach in the comp would take our mix of players over their own lists.

You think the following woud swich positions with Ross Lyon:-
Malthouse
Wallace
Roos
Voss
Williams
Ratten
Craig
Laidley
This list includes the other 4 of last year's finalists as well as 4 other teams purported to be on the rise this season.

(I'm not talking about cherry picking a palyer or 2 or 3, but swapping teams completely.)

An alternative could be - would Lyon swap with any of those guys?

I highly doubt he would.

Wallace and Ratten would be the only 2 I would think who would rightly be confident with their own cattle going forward.

[Mr Magic]

With respect rodgerfox, the proposal put forward by Saints43 is that he believes the view from'outside' the Club is that the list is so good that only 2 or 3 other coaches wouldn't swap their current list for that of St Kilda.

What Lyon thinks of other lists may well be an interesting topic but not what Saints43 was raising.
I'm sure there are things that satisfy him about our list and other things that don't. How would you, I or anybody elsew other than his closest confidantes have any idea of what his thoughts are on this matter. It's pure conjecture and specualtion on our part.

Which is why I'm interested in Saints43's ideas on this - as he obviously rates our list as equal 3rd best in the AFL.

Barring injury problems to us you would then expect us to finish top 4, which is exactly what we did last season.

What's the problem with Lyon then?
He didn't exceed expectations?

[Saints43]

With respect rodgerfox, the proposal put forward by Saints43 is that he believes the view from'outside' the Club is that the list is so good that only 2 or 3 other coaches wouldn't swap their current list for that of St Kilda.

What Lyon thinks of other lists may well be an interesting topic but not what Saints43 was raising.
I'm sure there are things that satisfy him about our list and other things that don't. How would you, I or anybody elsew other than his closest confidantes have any idea of what his thoughts are on this matter. It's pure conjecture and specualtion on our part.

Which is why I'm interested in Saints43's ideas on this - as he obviously rates our list as equal 3rd best in the AFL.

Yes I do. To qualify my statement - I believe that our list is the equal third best in the league currently and will be around that mark for the next three seasons.

Every list has deficiencies - including Geleong & Hawthorn's - but our deficiencies now (and I believe in the short term) are less than most clubs in the competition.

PS. Are you serious when asking if Laidley would prefer to work with St Kildas list rather than the Kangaroos?

[Mr Magic]

With respect rodgerfox, the proposal put forward by Saints43 is that he believes the view from'outside' the Club is that the list is so good that only 2 or 3 other coaches wouldn't swap their current list for that of St Kilda.

What Lyon thinks of other lists may well be an interesting topic but not what Saints43 was raising.
I'm sure there are things that satisfy him about our list and other things that don't. How would you, I or anybody elsew other than his closest confidantes have any idea of what his thoughts are on this matter. It's pure conjecture and specualtion on our part.

Which is why I'm interested in Saints43's ideas on this - as he obviously rates our list as equal 3rd best in the AFL.

Yes I do. To qualify my statement - I believe that our list is the equal third best in the league currently and will be around that mark for the next three seasons.

Every list has deficiencies - including Geleong & Hawthorn's - but our deficiencies now (and I believe in the short term) are less than most clubs in the competition.

PS. Are you serious when asking if Laidley would prefer to work with St Kildas list rather than the Kangaroos?

Not really
Just trying to get to the point that if we're around the 3rd/4th best list (subjective opinions) and we finished Top 4, what's the issue with Lyon's coaching?
Are posters suggesting we finished Top 4 despite the Coach?

[Saints43]

What's the problem with Lyon then?
He didn't exceed expectations?

My issue with Lyon has been how long it is taking for him to get it together. He is working with a good list. I reckon the finish last year was about right. If we could get players playing to their potential more often (established players whose capabilities are already known - not pie-in-the-sky stuff like #34) then we could still have a tilt at the flag. But we don't want to waste too much more time of the core players peak periods.

It has been a painfully slow learning period - from the game-style for personnel to the media relations.

[Mr Magic]

What's the problem with Lyon then?
He didn't exceed expectations?

My issue with Lyon has been how long it is taking for him to get it together. He is working with a good list. I reckon the finish last year was about right. If we could get players playing to their potential more often (established players whose capabilities are already known - not pie-in-the-sky stuff like #34) then we could still have a tilt at the flag. But we don't want to waste too much more time of the core players peak periods.

It has been a painfully slow learning period - from the game-style for personnel to the media relations.

I've never coached a team at any level (team managed juniors though ) so I really have no knowledge in this area, but how long would you expect it to take under these circumstances?:-

You take over a team which finished 6th
You believe that their gameplan is fundamentally flawed.
You decide on a totally new gameplan, not a 'tweaking' of the existing one.
You start discarding players you don't feel can play your style.

I believe what I just posted above is the position Lyon found himself in when he took on the job as our Senior Coach.

[Saints43]

What's the problem with Lyon then?
He didn't exceed expectations?

My issue with Lyon has been how long it is taking for him to get it together. He is working with a good list. I reckon the finish last year was about right. If we could get players playing to their potential more often (established players whose capabilities are already known - not pie-in-the-sky stuff like #34) then we could still have a tilt at the flag. But we don't want to waste too much more time of the core players peak periods.

It has been a painfully slow learning period - from the game-style for personnel to the media relations.

I've never coached a team at any level (team managed juniors though ) so I really have no knowledge in this area, but how long would you expect it to take under these circumstances?:-

You take over a team which finished 6th
You believe that their gameplan is fundamentally flawed.
You decide on a totally new gameplan, not a 'tweaking' of the existing one.
You start discarding players you don't feel can play your style.

I believe what I just posted above is the position Lyon found himself in when he took on the job as our Senior Coach.

I'm not doubting that. And I fully acknowledge what a hard job it is - the different skills required in one person.

It was a shame that we've (IMO) wasted so much time (and while people may say it was only 12-18 months - that's a lot of Lenny's career). I sincerely hope that he's going to be all over it this year and if we can get at least the known performance from our players I think we will be in for a good season results-wise. Especially when you consider the impact we had on the competition last year play inconsistent (week to week, quarter to quarter) football.

Anyway, I think there is plenty to work with.

[Mr Magic]

I agree with you, which is why I find it really interesting that so many posters seem to view the situation in a black/white way.

Either 'Lyon is the best thing since sliced cheese or he is hopeless' and no room for any other view in the middle.

If AFL football was only so simple.

My own view is that Lyon has spent the last 2 years stamping his authority and imprimatur on the team and moulding the way we play.

We maybe still aren't there yet but,
It is my belief that the players no longer believe that once they get behind they are finished. That woulds seem to be a huge change in mindset from teh previous 4 or 5 years where it seemed all the opposition needed to do was get 4 or 5 goals up and we were gone for the day.

I think the players also believe that they can 'close down' any opposition when they need to.

The area that they seem to have had a problem with is 'flicking the switch' from choking the life out of their opponents to all out attack.

Hopefully this season we'll see that improve also.

[MC Gusto]

I agree with you, which is why I find it really interesting that so many posters seem to view the situation in a black/white way.

Either 'Lyon is the best thing since sliced cheese or he is hopeless' and no room for any other view in the middle.

If AFL football was only so simple.

My own view is that Lyon has spent the last 2 years stamping his authority and imprimatur on the team and moulding the way we play.

We maybe still aren't there yet but,
It is my belief that the players no longer believe that once they get behind they are finished. That woulds seem to be a huge change in mindset from teh previous 4 or 5 years where it seemed all the opposition needed to do was get 4 or 5 goals up and we were gone for the day.

I think the players also believe that they can 'close down' any opposition when they need to.

The area that they seem to have had a problem with is 'flicking the switch' from choking the life out of their opponents to all out attack.

Hopefully this season we'll see that improve also.

best post of this <tiresome> thread bar none

[rodgerfox]

I agree with you, which is why I find it really interesting that so many posters seem to view the situation in a black/white way.

Either 'Lyon is the best thing since sliced cheese or he is hopeless' and no room for any other view in the middle.

If AFL football was only so simple.

My own view is that Lyon has spent the last 2 years stamping his authority and imprimatur on the team and moulding the way we play.

We maybe still aren't there yet but,
It is my belief that the players no longer believe that once they get behind they are finished. That woulds seem to be a huge change in mindset from teh previous 4 or 5 years where it seemed all the opposition needed to do was get 4 or 5 goals up and we were gone for the day.

I think the players also believe that they can 'close down' any opposition when they need to.

The area that they seem to have had a problem with is 'flicking the switch' from choking the life out of their opponents to all out attack.

Hopefully this season we'll see that improve also.

That's all well and good, however I don't agree with the 'positive' points at all.

We can't 'close down' opponents consistently. We try - but we certainly aren't good at it.

Lyon has obviously been trying to stamp his authority on the team for 2 years - but our inconsistent, scrappy and incohesive style of footy tells me that it's not working.

I have no doubt he's trying his hardest.

What I doubt about Lyon is that 1) his plan is actually any good and what he's trying to get the team to do will actually result in success, and 2) that he will ever actually get through to the players.

To me, so far, there's very little evidence (apart from falling into 4th on the back of a Roo inspired 2nd half) to suggest I'm wrong either.

[Mr Magic]

So what's new rodger?

When we play well/win - it's the players' credit.
When we play badly/lose - it's the Coach's fault.

[rodgerfox]

So what's new rodger?

When we play well/win - it's the players' credit.
When we play badly/lose - it's the Coach's fault.

We don't play well often. That's the problem!

And when we do play well, it appears that the only reason is that Nick Reiwoldt carries us.

That's my concern. We're hardly setting the world on fire.

[Teflon]

What's the problem with Lyon then?
He didn't exceed expectations?

My issue with Lyon has been how long it is taking for him to get it together. He is working with a good list. I reckon the finish last year was about right. If we could get players playing to their potential more often (established players whose capabilities are already known - not pie-in-the-sky stuff like #34) then we could still have a tilt at the flag. But we don't want to waste too much more time of the core players peak periods.

It has been a painfully slow learning period - from the game-style for personnel to the media relations.

So lets put your "Lyons just taking to long" into context.

The list isnt as good as it was - I mean by your own ranking we are now 3rd best in the comp - in 04/05 some had us best (and Id argue the Dogs depth is now better than ours - as we have seen we are "thin" when we lose a player....see Luke Ball against Hawks prelim...)....so we may even be 4th best list getting round (and if we are honest the impressive talent Carlton/Richmond have coming through you could mount an argument they are in better shape...I dont think Mqualter/Clint Jones would get a game for them - do you??.....but lets go with your theory for now...)

Regardless, Lyons taken over a list that is slipping - needs depth added badly, he doesnt have the top 10 pick luxury to revamp as his predecessor did so he needs to be far more astute through rookies, scholarships, draft picks etc

He's had to revamp a "one size fits all" game plan that fell down badly when sides simply refused to play "shoot outs" and got numbers back,
He's had to re-educate a side to play a new way
Hes had to adapt to the caper of senior AFL coach - including deal with the media
He's had to do this while navigating his way through a Board spill that led to major changes
Lose a legend and a Coleman medallist...

Despite all this this he gets us to a prelim in yr 2..........(where you say our list is at..)

And hes taking to long for your liking????

F@rk me - you should get on the plane and have a chat to Obama - I reckon in a day or two you'd have this global financial crisis sorted....

[Teflon]

I agree with you, which is why I find it really interesting that so many posters seem to view the situation in a black/white way.

Either 'Lyon is the best thing since sliced cheese or he is hopeless' and no room for any other view in the middle.

If AFL football was only so simple.

My own view is that Lyon has spent the last 2 years stamping his authority and imprimatur on the team and moulding the way we play.

We maybe still aren't there yet but,
It is my belief that the players no longer believe that once they get behind they are finished. That woulds seem to be a huge change in mindset from teh previous 4 or 5 years where it seemed all the opposition needed to do was get 4 or 5 goals up and we were gone for the day.

I think the players also believe that they can 'close down' any opposition when they need to.

The area that they seem to have had a problem with is 'flicking the switch' from choking the life out of their opponents to all out attack.

Hopefully this season we'll see that improve also.

Great post Magic.

Amazes me that people actually believe that the type of changes you've outlined so well above should occur overnight.

No, that doesnt mean Lyon has done everything right the first time and yep nothings black/white .....well...not to most.

[joffaboy]

If the "Modern Game" is that ring a ring a rosey - multiple short hand passes until someone gets caught - kicking backward - sideways - to the other side - backwards again - then to someone who once again starts a procession of short ineffective and usually poorly executed handballs - well I wont be going to that much football this year.

I'll go to the first couple of games but if this crap that I have witnessed so far in 2009 continues - well lets just say my interest in football will be killed off completly.

Cant believe I am say this as I think our game is so much better than Rugby League - the game I was brought up on - but I have really enjoyed the games of League i saw on the weekend. The games where the Rabbitohs and Bulldogs won were full on attacking with end to end tries.

zthe games were blowouts and it seems that while there were some close games (Storm v Saints and Tigers v Raiders tonight) the NRL hasn't tried to make every game close and even as the AFL have attemptred with their knee jerk rule changes and compromised competition.

I fear for our game as it becomes bogged down keepings off. It is losing my interest very quickly I'm afraid.

For the first time in twenty years I have booked holidays at the start of the footy season and will miss three games from R3.

Sadly I really couldn't care less.

[mightysainters]

If the "Modern Game" is that ring a ring a rosey - multiple short hand passes until someone gets caught - kicking backward - sideways - to the other side - backwards again - then to someone who once again starts a procession of short ineffective and usually poorly executed handballs - well I wont be going to that much football this year.

I'll go to the first couple of games but if this crap that I have witnessed so far in 2009 continues - well lets just say my interest in football will be killed off completly.

Cant believe I am say this as I think our game is so much better than Rugby League - the game I was brought up on - but I have really enjoyed the games of League i saw on the weekend. The games where the Rabbitohs and Bulldogs won were full on attacking with end to end tries.

zthe games were blowouts and it seems that while there were some close games (Storm v Saints and Tigers v Raiders tonight) the NRL hasn't tried to make every game close and even as the AFL have attemptred with their knee jerk rule changes and compromised competition.

I fear for our game as it becomes bogged down keepings off. It is losing my interest very quickly I'm afraid.

For the first time in twenty years I have booked holidays at the start of the footy season and will miss three games from R3.

Sadly I really couldn't care less.

Cry me a river it's called evolution more tactical game play, it's called being a die hard football supporter no matter what...

Ross has been trying ot implement these tactics unfortunately the running game play and cluster has not been implemented as well as Bulldogs, Hawks and Cats because our defficiency by foot and lack of speed.

Hopefully our skill improves and we play more attacking football albeit on the counter attack and more decisive.

[rodgerfox]

Amazes me that people actually believe that the type of changes you've outlined so well above should occur overnight.

I don't think I've read or heard anyone say these improvements should happen overnight??

I have heard over 2 years. Which I think is well and truly fair enough.

No improvement in 2 years suggests something's awry.

[Mr Magic]

Amazes me that people actually believe that the type of changes you've outlined so well above should occur overnight.

I don't think I've read or heard anyone say these improvements should happen overnight??

I have heard over 2 years. Which I think is well and truly fair enough.

No improvement in 2 years suggests something's awry.

Well a couple of things.

1. You haven't just started complaining about it now -you've been complaining about it for a large proportion of the 2 year period so in light of your above recognition that it should take time you were obviously hasty in your earlier posts re this.

2. Just because you choose not to recognize any improvement doesn't mean there hasn't been any.

[rodgerfox]

Well a couple of things.

1. You haven't just started complaining about it now -you've been complaining about it for a large proportion of the 2 year period so in light of your above recognition that it should take time you were obviously hasty in your earlier posts re this.

That's not really true. I was very supportive of Ross Lyon when he took over. I had private concerns about 3 months in, then started to share them publicly.
My concerns at the time, are exactly the same as they are now.

My concerns at the time, related to recruitment, and the performances of our ready made players.

These are two things that shouldn't take 2 years to get right. These are things that a new coach should get from the start.

The other things, like learning a game plan can take 2 years. I made a thread defending Lyon staunchly for this about 18 months ago.
Another 12 months on, I still don't see any improvement though.
Granted the season hasn't started yet so it may well click this year. But if in the first half of this year we see the same scrappy, incohesive style of footy that we've become used to, then clearly it's taking too long and I'll be proven to be correct.

[Saints43]

So lets put your "Lyons just taking to long" into context.

The list isnt as good as it was - I mean by your own ranking we are now 3rd best in the comp - in 04/05 some had us best (and Id argue the Dogs depth is now better than ours - as we have seen we are "thin" when we lose a player....see Luke Ball against Hawks prelim...)....so we may even be 4th best list getting round (and if we are honest the impressive talent Carlton/Richmond have coming through you could mount an argument they are in better shape...I dont think Mqualter/Clint Jones would get a game for them - do you??.....but lets go with your theory for now...)

I don't think St Kilda have ever had the best list in the competition. The results the previous coach was getting were about right as well. You can argue that Carlton and Richmond have better prospects over the next three years but you would be wildly incorrect IMO. Carlton's list has massive flaws in both defence & forward lines. Richmond is the same. St Kilda has a good defence, good midfield and I would argue that problems with our forward line are self imposed.

Clinton Jones shouldn't get a game for us. He shouldn't play for us. As far as I'm concerned he is a waste of development time of a player with more scope for improvement (almost anyone else on the list). McQ will take a step this year (but I agree with you generally on him). Have a look at the bottom end of other teams lists - they all have pretty ordinary players.

Regardless, Lyons taken over a list that is slipping - needs depth added badly, he doesnt have the top 10 pick luxury to revamp as his predecessor did so he needs to be far more astute through rookies, scholarships, draft picks etc

When you say Lyon took over a list that is slipping... how far did 'the list' slip between September 2006 and march 2007. Or did the performances slip? The list issues were exacerbated by the list group performance falling away.

He's had to revamp a "one size fits all" game plan that fell down badly when sides simply refused to play "shoot outs" and got numbers back,
He's had to re-educate a side to play a new way
Hes had to adapt to the caper of senior AFL coach - including deal with the media
He's had to do this while navigating his way through a Board spill that led to major changes
Lose a legend and a Coleman medallist...

This is a statement that continually gets made on this forum - that St Kilda performed the charge of the light brigade each week and just kicked helicopters to Gehrig & Riewoldt. St Kilda were a high scoring and defensively sound unit (as well as generally being highly motivated). These attributes don't come about just with a pat on the arse and "Do it for the jumper" jingoism. Although I will agree that the refusal to pay tempo football when required was a philosophical failing. I don't believe RL has had to perform a re-education. The style of football he says he wants St Kilda to play is not like switching from golf to the high-jump. It's the same game.

And I agree that RL has had to learn the non-technical aspects of the job such as media. To me RL hasn't presented as the fastest learner in the game.

Despite all this this he gets us to a prelim in yr 2..........(where you say our list is at..)

And hes taking to long for your liking????

The greatest concern with St Kilda late 2003 onwards (since we've been a good team) has been consistency of performance. This is the most important measure of a coaches performance. Our best and worst is as far apart as I can ever remember.

I am yet to be convinced that RL is going to get this right. If he does I believe that we can still have a tilt at the flag.

F@rk me - you should get on the plane and have a chat to Obama - I reckon in a day or two you'd have this global financial crisis sorted....

Whatever.

[joffaboy]

Cry me a river it's called evolution more tactical game play, it's called being a die hard football supporter no matter what...

the AFL must love drones like you

interesting - you will support this type of tripe football but you wont support our players.

You are a hypocrite.

Ross has been trying ot implement these tactics unfortunately the running game play and cluster has not been implemented as well as Bulldogs, Hawks and Cats because our defficiency by foot and lack of speed.

Who cares - it is still s.hit and you swalow it hook line and sinker.

Hopefully our skill improves and we play more attacking football albeit on the counter attack and more decisive.

Our skills are just as bad as ever.

[meher baba]

I have just finished reading through this thread and think that almost all of you have made the mistake of vastly overrating the importance of a coach to determining how his team plays.

I do believe that GT was a more than competent coach and that sacking him in 2006 was a stupid and risky move.

I believe that, as one would expect from a rookie, Lyon made a lot of mistakes in 2007 and early 2008, but has improved greatly during the second half of last year and is now probably about as good a coach as GT was at his best (albeit one with a much different style).

Our main stylistic deficiencies over the past 3 seasons, regardless of the coach, have had nothing whatsoever to do with our defence, points conceded, etc. and everything do with lack of attacking firepower in the midfield and upfront.

Hamill was effectively finished in May 2006, robbing us of an all time great medium-sized forward. Gehrig slowly deteriorated over 2006-07 and Kosi's impact when he moves into the forward 50 has been mostly down for a few seasons now (albeit marginally better last year).

The only compensating factors to this decline in up-front strength have been Milne's much better form in 2007 and 2008 compared to the relatively poor year he had in 2006 and, to a very minor extent, the advent of Schneider.

What we have done to compensate for this decline in forward power? The main thing has been to use Riewoldt almost exclusively as a forward. This has weakened our forward thrust out of the midfield (in which Riewoldt played an important role in 2004 and 2005).

At the same time, other factors have contributed to our lack of forward thrust in recent seasons: the retirement of Aussie Jones (for which Gram looked to provide an antidote in 2006, but not since); the retirements of Thommo and Powell; the repeat injuries to Ball and X; the major injuries to Lenny and Goose in 2006 and BJ in 2007; the deterioration in form of Dal; the slow decline of Harves as an attacking force; and the inability of players like Fiora, McQualter, Armitage, Howard, Birss, etc. to give us the additional thrust we were looking for.

Arguably, the flooding/retreating/lockdown (or whatever you want to call it) style of football that seems to be favoured by Lyon hasn't helped the situation, but I don't see it as the primary cause.

This season, I would expect Lyon to be looking at players like BJ, the Clarkes (if fit), Ray, Armo, Steven and Begley to give us more forward thrust out of the back half of the field. And he would be desperately hoping that somebody - Gwilt, Gilbert, Lynch, Heynes, McEvoy - steps up as a third forward to fill the void left by Gehrig and Hamill. Past experience has shown that successful forwards can often emerge quite quickly, so we can only hope.

In that context, if I were Lyon I would also seriously consider playing Dal Santo a lot more inside the forward 50. We all know that he has been too heavily tagged in recent seasons to allow him to be particularly creative coming out of the back half. So why not try something different with him?

[WayneJudson42]

Ugly as it mey be, but the modern game is a result of coaches trying to go one better in a tactical sense.

The sad reality is that you can play whatever style you like, but if a coach devises a way to shut you down, then you're scroowed which ever way.

So do you roll over or join them?

Perhaps the AFL should look at some serious rules like a minimun of players in defensive zones, or even like rugby where after 5tackles, they turn it over. Perhaps a cap on handballs in any one set play?

Mins you, having said that, just take a look at videos from the 8's and it wasn't too pretty back then, either.

[iwantmeseats]

Ugly as it mey be, but the modern game is a result of coaches trying to go one better in a tactical sense.

The sad reality is that you can play whatever style you like, but if a coach devises a way to shut you down, then you're scroowed which ever way.

So do you roll over or join them?

Perhaps the AFL should look at some serious rules like a minimun of players in defensive zones, or even like rugby where after 5tackles, they turn it over. Perhaps a cap on handballs in any one set play?

Mins you, having said that, just take a look at videos from the 8's and it wasn't too pretty back then, either.

um, no! Those type of rule changes should never ever ever be considered.

How about we just the scrap the game, call it something else , and start again. FFS.