The Modern Game

[Saints Premiers 2008]

IMO, we would have smashed a tired Brissy unit into a million pieces. Winning the prelim against us was Port's ticket to silver, all their supporter's know it too. We were very unlucky, but that's history, as is the team that produced top 4 finishes in '04 and '05.

I think we're looking good this year too, just quietly, and expecting a strong second half of the year (where it counts).

People forget that Brisbane beat us by 50 points 3 weeks earlier, then again by 80 points.

It's incredibly rare for a team to turn thsoe types of maulings around.

agreed rog...

saying we would have beaten the lions is bullding...we lost by a combined 130 points within 3 weeks or so...

[Teflon]

Yup, I think the premise in the OP is a good one... and I think if you cant get excited at this stage of the year about this team and our prospects for the coming season then you should seriously consider giving it away... I mean what is the point?

The premise of the OP is ridiculous. If the game is going defensive then RL's gameplan in 2007 was not in preparation for this day. He didn't mean for us to play that way - it was a mistake.

Is that so hard to understand? It might be a happy co-incidence (it might be a stroke of luck that will win us the flag) but it was not planned. (That's what the OP is about BTW)

Lets go back and dumb this down for you cause you are struggling.

Heres the essence of the OP again in slo mo for you:

Regardless I will say this: IF the game is gone this way then IMO Lyon is to at least be commended - he has drilled more defensiveness into this side from day 1......just maybe we are ahead of the pack game plan wise this time.....


REGARDLESS of whether Lyon says we havent played the way he truly wants DOES NOT exclude the possibility that he does at least want us to be more defensive minded ...is that so hard?????- as Mark P pointed out.......it aint just black or white (must be a cold world where you live).

IF we do handle the defensive game better than many this year because we have been "practising" it for 2 years now the FACT from this will be that Ross Lyon bought that about and he should be commended for that. You wont like it but IF it occurs youd better suck it up....thats life.

I will also point out I did not say we ARE ahead of anything at present - this year will help us see that....but again.....we just maybe ?

NO ONE could logically argue that he has not made us more defensive - ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US THIS ISNT SO?

I am not convinced your simply not Rodger wearing a dress.

You need to get over me and focus on the discussion - Im sure that will bring some level or clarity and logic to your thinking.

Its clear you loathe giving Ross Lyon any credit at all for anything...thats sad cause its the club I support NOT Ross Lyon (Ive already highlighted my points where I have been critical of him)- fair enough you dont like him cause he was honest in his responses when he took the job. Obviously you prefer the smooth schmaltzing supplied by his predecessor.

Shame peoples personality conflicts override objective discussion.

Try again.

[Teflon]

RF, I don't give RL credit for being a genius with the foresight to predict future patterns of play, but I think it's fair to say what has been perceived as an overly defensive game plan in the past, may suddenly become more effective. That may just be pure luck. But we deserve some. I too have been a critic of RL in the past, but I think on the available evidence, we seem to be improving. After all we did finish 4th last year having made a preliminary final, a position that would have been the envy of 12 other clubs.

I also think its a bit rich to say we have no method, system or coherence. Inconsistency I'd agree on, but I think that's what he's trying to achieve. More consistency through method and system. If anything, we've been criticised for being "overcoached", too predictable and a lack of flexibility. There are a number of experts, who see RL as a good tactician and can appreciate that he is working hard to create a more resilient unit through an emphasis on defence. Greg Denham recently said he thought RL's coaching alone was worth a couple of wins for the saints last year and that this year will be the same. KB agreed. I think his method is crystal clear, it's just not that palatable or attractive at times.

If we keep making finals and god forbid, win a premiership, I'll be the first to worship at the altar of Ross Lyon. FWIW, I think we're closer now than we have been since 2005. 2006 and 2007 were not lost years, just the opportunity to have a bit of a rebuild, get the right structures in place and get a shot at it while our core group of stars are still in their prime. The next three years represent our best chance. We have more than just hope. We are closer than most people believe. We've got a favourable draw and all we need is a better run with injuries to have a real crack.
As Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right." So at this stage I hope the players and fans think we can.

Superb post - well said.

[Teflon]

It might be a happy co-incidence (it might be a stroke of luck that will win us the flag) but it was not planned. (That's what the OP is about BTW)

Splitting hairs now, but I believe the OP leaves room for it to have partially been a 'happy coincidence', RL put the plan in place but how could anyone be sure of how the game would evolve?.... the result is what's important, and just maybe we are ahead of the curve a bit.

Wouldn't that be great?... reason to get exited even...?

Ahh.....clarity......its like a sliver of sunslight reaching the ground through a much denser than normal rainforest canopy....

Thanks.

[SainterK]

Fan of this game style or not, can we name any other teams that are better equiped to play it better? Perhaps we are not yet completely fluid in our approach, but we at least have an approach?

[degruch]

IMO, we would have smashed a tired Brissy unit into a million pieces. Winning the prelim against us was Port's ticket to silver, all their supporter's know it too. We were very unlucky, but that's history, as is the team that produced top 4 finishes in '04 and '05.

I think we're looking good this year too, just quietly, and expecting a strong second half of the year (where it counts).

People forget that Brisbane beat us by 50 points 3 weeks earlier, then again by 80 points.

It's incredibly rare for a team to turn thsoe types of maulings around.

agreed rog...

saying we would have beaten the lions is bullding...we lost by a combined 130 points within 3 weeks or so...

I think you need to read my reply.

[Saints43]

Yup, I think the premise in the OP is a good one... and I think if you cant get excited at this stage of the year about this team and our prospects for the coming season then you should seriously consider giving it away... I mean what is the point?

The premise of the OP is ridiculous. If the game is going defensive then RL's gameplan in 2007 was not in preparation for this day. He didn't mean for us to play that way - it was a mistake.

Is that so hard to understand? It might be a happy co-incidence (it might be a stroke of luck that will win us the flag) but it was not planned. (That's what the OP is about BTW)

Lets go back and dumb this down for you cause you are struggling.

Heres the essence of the OP again in slo mo for you:

Regardless I will say this: IF the game is gone this way then IMO Lyon is to at least be commended - he has drilled more defensiveness into this side from day 1......just maybe we are ahead of the pack game plan wise this time.....


REGARDLESS of whether Lyon says we havent played the way he truly wants DOES NOT exclude the possibility that he does at least want us to be more defensive minded ...is that so hard?????- as Mark P pointed out.......it aint just black or white (must be a cold world where you live).

IF we do handle the defensive game better than many this year because we have been "practising" it for 2 years now the FACT from this will be that Ross Lyon bought that about and he should be commended for that. You wont like it but IF it occurs youd better suck it up....thats life.

I will also point out I did not say we ARE ahead of anything at present - this year will help us see that....but again.....we just maybe ?

NO ONE could logically argue that he has not made us more defensive - ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US THIS ISNT SO?

I am not convinced your simply not Rodger wearing a dress.

You need to get over me and focus on the discussion - Im sure that will bring some level or clarity and logic to your thinking.

Its clear you loathe giving Ross Lyon any credit at all for anything...thats sad cause its the club I support NOT Ross Lyon (Ive already highlighted my points where I have been critical of him)- fair enough you dont like him cause he was honest in his responses when he took the job. Obviously you prefer the smooth schmaltzing supplied by his predecessor.

Shame peoples personality conflicts override objective discussion.

Try again.

So you'd 'commend' someone for lucking out (if in fact it does happen).

OK.

I'll commend RL when we are playing a consistent brand of winning football.

[vacuous space]

I haven't read the whole thread (thanks to the old 'once a thread gets past three pages' rule...), so excuse me if this has been covered.

The main difference between zoning and man on man play is that in one you're accountable for a man, the other for a space and anyone who should enter it. Either way, you still have to be accountable, which has been a focus of Ross Lyon from day one. So I think we're pretty well prepared in that sense.

I also don't think the zone is a massive departure from what our previous coach used to do. Specifically, maintaining our structure while our opponents mess with their structure.

Also, it will be interesting to see, if we do copy Hawthorn's style of play, who plays the roaming roles. One would think that Dal Santo would be a lock for one of them.

[degruch]

Yup, I think the premise in the OP is a good one... and I think if you cant get excited at this stage of the year about this team and our prospects for the coming season then you should seriously consider giving it away... I mean what is the point?

The premise of the OP is ridiculous. If the game is going defensive then RL's gameplan in 2007 was not in preparation for this day. He didn't mean for us to play that way - it was a mistake.

Is that so hard to understand? It might be a happy co-incidence (it might be a stroke of luck that will win us the flag) but it was not planned. (That's what the OP is about BTW)

Lets go back and dumb this down for you cause you are struggling.

Heres the essence of the OP again in slo mo for you:

Regardless I will say this: IF the game is gone this way then IMO Lyon is to at least be commended - he has drilled more defensiveness into this side from day 1......just maybe we are ahead of the pack game plan wise this time.....


REGARDLESS of whether Lyon says we havent played the way he truly wants DOES NOT exclude the possibility that he does at least want us to be more defensive minded ...is that so hard?????- as Mark P pointed out.......it aint just black or white (must be a cold world where you live).

IF we do handle the defensive game better than many this year because we have been "practising" it for 2 years now the FACT from this will be that Ross Lyon bought that about and he should be commended for that. You wont like it but IF it occurs youd better suck it up....thats life.

I will also point out I did not say we ARE ahead of anything at present - this year will help us see that....but again.....we just maybe ?

NO ONE could logically argue that he has not made us more defensive - ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US THIS ISNT SO?

I am not convinced your simply not Rodger wearing a dress.

You need to get over me and focus on the discussion - Im sure that will bring some level or clarity and logic to your thinking.

Its clear you loathe giving Ross Lyon any credit at all for anything...thats sad cause its the club I support NOT Ross Lyon (Ive already highlighted my points where I have been critical of him)- fair enough you dont like him cause he was honest in his responses when he took the job. Obviously you prefer the smooth schmaltzing supplied by his predecessor.

Shame peoples personality conflicts override objective discussion.

Try again.

So you'd 'commend' someone for lucking out (if in fact it does happen).

OK.

I'll commend RL when we are playing a consistent brand of winning football.

Lucking out? Surely you're joking...our game plan, for the last two seasons, just an accident??? We're not the only team that's employed this style of defensive game, and we're not the only team that's had success with it...if you find it boring to watch, that's unfortunate. I don't think it's 'the modern game', I think it's a tactic.

When GT had us attacking like crazy, it did look great, I must admit. But without the right cattle it would come unstuck. This brand of footy would not work with our current team structure...Roo would get RSI kicking for goal. As fun as it was, it was easy to out-coach GT in his day, provided you had a good defense and some fire-power up forward. Without big guns like Hamill and Gerhig in the team, it didn't work that great either.

I'm happy to see how the new season goes, but as with last season, I'm expecting us to be a little unpredicible...as unpredicitible as RL would be to coach against.

[Saints43]

Lucking out? Surely you're joking...

I depends on if you see 'being more defensive' as chasing players into your backline. I would define 'being more defensive' as reducing the number of goals conceded without reducing the same number of goals scored. Otherwise you are really doing nothing.

If playing a defensive brand of football is going to be the best way to play winning football in 2009 (debatable I would have thought) and RL has implemented a more defensive style of football in 2007-2008 without knowing how football will be played in 2009 has that been planned? He has stated that the gameplan of 2007 (which was praised by the OP originator) was an error. Is that something to be commended? It might be good luck. But is it worthy of acclaimation?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Rodge...interesting..you are the only Saints fan Ive ever heard say that we'd have struggled v Brisbane the next week. They had just come a very tough brutal ame agasint Geelong the previous week, played in the pouring rain..and had to return to Brissy them come back. A number of injuries..I reckon they were ripe for the picking..as Port found.

I think there are probably many Saints fans who don't think Brisbane would have been a walkover for St Kilda in 2004... but that's a while ago now, and hardly bears thinking about.

I know I suspect Brisbane would have been much harder on the young Saints than they were on a fit, firing and hungry Port... while Port weren't necessarily intimidating, they were much more capable of going with the rough stuff Brisbane was trotting out through that finals campaign, which is part of why we got clsoer to Port (Guerra was legged! )than Brisbane did. It's no co-incedence that Pickett was the Norm Smith against Brisbane after doing zip against us. With Hammill out, we really had nobody at that stage capable of being that grunt, and it was through sheer intimidation that they ran over us.

It would have been an interesting game, and compared to the games we lost in rd 22, the QF, and subsequent, we would have been a good chance against a tired outfit... but I think it's the golden hindsight of "if only" mixed with a general disrespect (not just Saints fans) for how good the Power of that era (2001-04) really were that has decided we were only a kick away from winning the '04 premiership.

[degruch]

Lucking out? Surely you're joking...

I depends on if you see 'being more defensive' as chasing players into your backline. I would define 'being more defensive' as reducing the number of goals conceded without reducing the same number of goals scored. Otherwise you are really doing nothing.

If playing a defensive brand of football is going to be the best way to play winning football in 2009 (debatable I would have thought) and RL has implemented a more defensive style of football in 2007-2008 without knowing how football will be played in 2009 has that been planned? He has stated that the gameplan of 2007 (which was praised by the OP originator) was an error. Is that something to be commended? It might be good luck. But is it worthy of acclaimation?

I think he's alluding to the fact that the game plan of 2007 did not suit the team structure, nor their prior training. However, there simply wasn't the personnel to continue blasting teams off the park. However, that was 2 years ago, numerous players have come and gone...ignoring the fact that 2009 season is yet to commence (and the plan can change), I believe the time has come for RL's gameplan (defensive or not) to be put in place.

Don't forget that restructuring (thanks to the likes of Dempster, Begley, Ray, possibly Dawson) arriving is due to release potential running attack players like Goddard, Gram and Fisher from the 2008 backline - it remains to be seen how effective these guys will be.

[ctqs]

One way to make it more attacking is to get rid of the "points against" and just include "points for" in the percentage.
Rodney Eade also made a good suggestion last night. At each stoppage, both teams have to have three players each inside both 50s. So 12 of the 36 on the field are at either end of the ground for every ball-up and throw in.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

One way to make it more attacking is to get rid of the "points against" and just include "points for" in the percentage.
Rodney Eade also made a good suggestion last night. At each stoppage, both teams have to have three players each inside both 50s. So 12 of the 36 on the field are at either end of the ground for every ball-up and throw in.

Personally, I'm against any and all rule changes targetted at making the game more attacking. Let it work itself out and the cycle will happen by itself. The dominant team of the last 24 months is Geelong, the most attacking team in the comp. Last year we had the first 100 goal scorer since the G train, and he got there in the H&A season, and another stranded on 99... plenty of attack.

Other notes:
- 3 players each inside 50? Putting in place a netball type rule like that actually removes the option for an open forward line without removing on the ball flooding... we should remember that our part of the game against the hawks in 07 (the first one) was to leave our back 6 in the defensive circle.
- Changing to points for instead of % only applies in the case of a tie...
- While not mentioned above, the one that truly perplexes me is limiting the interchange. It will require fitter players who will play "stay at home" more... it won't create offense, it will promote all rounders and rotations, and kill the classic ruckman.

IMO, most of the concern the preseason is generating is over the top - I have no doubt the Hawthorn system will lead to some incredibly defensive soccer style games at times, but no worse than flood fests we've seen before. The bigger cause is that there's inexperienced and speculative players playing experimental systems... and the objective of the games is mroe around practice than around winning.

[Teflon]

Lucking out? Surely you're joking...

I depends on if you see 'being more defensive' as chasing players into your backline. I would define 'being more defensive' as reducing the number of goals conceded without reducing the same number of goals scored. Otherwise you are really doing nothing.

If playing a defensive brand of football is going to be the best way to play winning football in 2009 (debatable I would have thought) and RL has implemented a more defensive style of football in 2007-2008 without knowing how football will be played in 2009 has that been planned? He has stated that the gameplan of 2007 (which was praised by the OP originator) was an error. Is that something to be commended? It might be good luck. But is it worthy of acclaimation?

As others have said -you are splitting hairs in your hatred or all things Lyon.

Its not an "Accident" we now play a more defensive game. Did Lyon know the game was going that way? Does that matter? - HE is STILL the coach who has overseen that change? who else deserves the credit IF in fact we turn out to be well versed in a defensiv game plan AHEAD of other sides in 09?

Let me guess - Grant?

Degruch has tried, Mark P, BAM, - it isnt just me who can see this???

Regardless, carry on your petty, silly rubbish against Lyon (and me with your feather like attacks on my "OP"... ) it matters little.

They are there for all to see what exactly they amount to.

Bring on 09 - Im backing our CURRENT coach.
Go Rossy.

[Teflon]

Interesting discussion, and I can see the basis of most expressed views (with the exception of the idea that Lyon has no system... love it or hate it, he's clearly got a system), but I do find myself wondering if the "defensive approach" necesserily translates into us being well prepared for lots of rolling zones in 2009.

We've certainly played a number of defensive zones in the last 2 (and more) years, played loose men in the back, put numbers behind the ball, etc. etc.

I'm not sure that necessarily translates any better than any other system to rolling zones. I'm not sure we're necessarily ahead of the curve in that sense. It could well be - it depends on what degree we try these zones during the H&A ourselves, our players should be well drilled in zoning by now.

I think it probably doesn't hurt that there's been a strong focus on building a running game with the intention of beating floods and zones, as it will continue to apply; the wheel does not need to be re-invented. It equally ought to be noted that our offensive systems have been a downfall. We broke down Hawthorn's zone during mid 2008 pretty well... but when we met them in finals, we couldn't touch it.

So I'm more conservative in any praise of foresight. Lyon's put us in a position which won't hurt us, while others are more of a mystery. I don't really think it's foresight - the rolling zone vs the Saints tactics are only similar in falling under the banner "defensive", IMO the only current coach who should be credited with the strategy is it's creator: Clarkson. That Clarkson has had such impact with a defensive system, and Lyon is a defensive system coach isn't foresight, it's co-incidence.

I do think it gives an opportunity for a defensive minded tactitian like a Ross Lyon to show foresight, by being able to get a couple of moves ahead on what the exploits will be to get through and the solutions to those... but until it happens, that's just optomism on my part.

Well thought out response. Its so nice to talk football on a football website..

Interesting distinction with Lyon as a "defensive system coach" and Clarkson as the rolling zone king - one could mount an argument that Clarksons approach isnt defence at all .......more a holding pattern for attack.

Regardless, your point about Lyons ability to demonstrate a way through the "zone" tactically and show some forsight is true - hes done it once and we were 5 goals down against a very good side at that time...will be interesting.

I suspect our failure against Hawks in finals had much more to do with a midfield collapse than not being able to get passed Hawks rolling zone (I actually thought we looked quite good in qtr 1 against them...) after that......its was a procession of Hawthorn clearances (at one stage we moved Riewoldt in there to give us something). I also believe Lyon made an error - Mqualter OR Fiora should have made way for a Birss - no not the difference - but someone who can play close and snag a goal against the trend when we so badly needed one. Clearly Hayes was a lone hand in and under and Luke Ball (who negates so much opposition in and under work) was a monstrous loss. While we are at it a Dempster to hold a Mark Williams wouldve been nice.......Gilbert was murdered.

Excellent point about our ability to NOW run this game style out - that HAS to be critical in carrying the ball through a zone....whether its a coincidence or not......Lyon IMO has us better placed than we were in 2004 to deal with this physical, running style of game.

Now IF Kosi can stand up....AND we manage a decent approach to fwd 50 in 09,.....well....who knows.

[SainterK]

Not if, WHEN Kosi stands up...

[Teflon]

Not if, WHEN Kosi stands up...

Hes so crucial I know.

Again (me theorising) but IF the game goes the rolling flood in 2009...a big, contested grab FF will be gold. Kosi has IMO the ability to be as dominant as J Brown IF he gets form.

The Bulldogs know this and want Ace Cordy for this role in future - we have this guy who should be in his prime right now....time to really step up, step out of Nicks shadow and cast his own spectre over the game.

Love to see him go nuts in 09 - hes also a nice bloke.

[rodgerfox]

Kosi is not a forward.

Never has been, never will be.

[SainterK]

Here I disagree with you, I think he is capable. He can certainly take a contested grab and kick a goal.

I also think with King and Gardiner fit, that's the plan. He has trimmed down, and I think we will see him in this role more "consistently" this year.

[rodgerfox]

Here I disagree with you, I think he is capable. He can certainly take a contested grab and kick a goal.

I also think with King and Gardiner fit, that's the plan. He has trimmed down, and I think we will see him in this role more "consistently" this year.

I keep hearing this.

Although off the top of my head, he's never kicked more than 4 in a game when playing forward. And he's only done this once I think.

As a follower, he's kicked 5 or more drifting forward a few times.


He's an ordinary forward. Slow on the lead. Doesn't judge a pack well at all. Runs too straight and allows good backmen to block his run. And his kicking is incredibly unreliable.

[Saints43]

As others have said -you are splitting hairs in your hatred or all things Lyon.

Markp stated that 'the OP leaves room for it to have partially been a 'happy coincidence''. If I'm splitting hairs stating that your guess that RLs defensive plan may be of benefit to us in 2009 IF football is played a certain way in the future is dopey then I apologise. Would hate to be pedantic on such a clearly defined statement.

Its not an "Accident" we now play a more defensive game. Did Lyon know the game was going that way? Does that matter? - HE is STILL the coach who has overseen that change? who else deserves the credit IF in fact we turn out to be well versed in a defensiv game plan AHEAD of other sides in 09?

I'll wait til he gets things right on purpose before I'll 'commend' him.

Let me guess - Grant?

You are the only person posting about GT.

Degruch has tried, Mark P, BAM, - it isnt just me who can see this???

I think you might want to go back and re-read BAM's unqualified support of your position. Markp states ''the OP leaves room for it to have partially been a 'happy coincidence'''. Another ringing endorsement of your opinion.

Regardless, carry on your petty, silly rubbish against Lyon (and me with your feather like attacks on my "OP"... ) it matters little.

Why does the abbreviation of 'Opening Post' make you giggle? Strange.

They are there for all to see what exactly they amount to.

Bring on 09 - Im backing our CURRENT coach.
Go Rossy.

Go Saints.

[Teflon]

As others have said -you are splitting hairs in your hatred or all things Lyon.

Markp stated that 'the OP leaves room for it to have partially been a 'happy coincidence''. If I'm splitting hairs stating that your guess that RLs defensive plan may be of benefit to us in 2009 IF football is played a certain way in the future is dopey then I apologise. Would hate to be pedantic on such a clearly defined statement.

Apology accepted. Im still amazed that your the only poster who STILL doesnt get the sentiment of the thread - once more with feeling....its a view. Its not right/wrong.....the world isnt black/white....but good luck with that line of reasoning....

Its not an "Accident" we now play a more defensive game. Did Lyon know the game was going that way? Does that matter? - HE is STILL the coach who has overseen that change? who else deserves the credit IF in fact we turn out to be well versed in a defensiv game plan AHEAD of other sides in 09?

I'll wait til he gets things right on purpose before I'll 'commend' him.

So we play more defensively than under Thomas - according to many we just flood now? - yet you think thats been an accident?
Let me guess - another boorish definition of ...."whats really defensive anyway..."......

Let me guess - Grant?

You are the only person posting about GT.

Im only saying what youd like to....

Degruch has tried, Mark P, BAM, - it isnt just me who can see this???

I think you might want to go back and re-read BAM's unqualified support of your position. Markp states ''the OP leaves room for it to have partially been a 'happy coincidence'''. Another ringing endorsement of your opinion.

Again your hung up on happy coincidences - again who cares? IF the game style of 2009 continues the same trend weve seen pre season AND we handle this style better than others does the coach deserve no credit at all?......I'm simply backing that Lyons style may be where footy is going - it STILL has to be implemented appropriately....again no credit there IF we do appear ahead of many teams for being well drilled in this style this year??.....you mustve been hard to please at Xmas....

Regardless, carry on your petty, silly rubbish against Lyon (and me with your feather like attacks on my "OP"... ) it matters little.

Why does the abbreviation of 'Opening Post' make you giggle? Strange.

I like to laugh at silly things. Take your clear obsession with me....its Peter Hoarish qualities make me giggle...

They are there for all to see what exactly they amount to.

Bring on 09 - Im backing our CURRENT coach.
Go Rossy.

Go Saints.

Oh I forgot ...Lyons not part of the fold cause he "upset" you when he correctly stated he didnt apply for the job... ...never the less he is STILL a Saint.

You also need to stop borrowing the glib posting styles of Dodgy......Im still not convinced your not him in drag.....oh well..... whatever floats your boat.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

...

I think it probably doesn't hurt that there's been a strong focus on building a running game with the intention of beating floods and zones, as it will continue to apply; the wheel does not need to be re-invented. It equally ought to be noted that our offensive systems have been a downfall. We broke down Hawthorn's zone during mid 2008 pretty well... but when we met them in finals, we couldn't touch it.

So I'm more conservative in any praise of foresight. Lyon's put us in a position which won't hurt us, while others are more of a mystery. I don't really think it's foresight - the rolling zone vs the Saints tactics are only similar in falling under the banner "defensive", IMO the only current coach who should be credited with the strategy is it's creator: Clarkson. That Clarkson has had such impact with a defensive system, and Lyon is a defensive system coach isn't foresight, it's co-incidence.

I do think it gives an opportunity for a defensive minded tactitian like a Ross Lyon to show foresight, by being able to get a couple of moves ahead on what the exploits will be to get through and the solutions to those... but until it happens, that's just optomism on my part.

Well thought out response. Its so nice to talk football on a football website..

Interesting distinction with Lyon as a "defensive system coach" and Clarkson as the rolling zone king - one could mount an argument that Clarksons approach isnt defence at all .......more a holding pattern for attack.

Regardless, your point about Lyons ability to demonstrate a way through the "zone" tactically and show some forsight is true - hes done it once and we were 5 goals down against a very good side at that time...will be interesting.
....

Forgive the snippage of an interesting post, trying to keep it manageable for those who'll just scroll past anyway...

I think you've actually nailed Clarkson in your "holding pattern for attack" comment. Buddy's Box was initially set up within an ultra defensive approach (HFF became wingers, everyone else shifted back), the zone came later. With a soccer inspired forward setup, he created the zones to feed a soccer inspired rebound strategy. Compliment it with clearance winners of the class of Mitchell and Hodge et al, and you've got a premiership winning formula when it all works.

Where I see Lyon tactically is currently closer to the 2007 Hawks. I balance off our offensive strategy being (waaaay) below Buddy's Box with the ability to counter the box - they got us in the prelim, but it was a footy gotcha, not a tactical one - the mids kicked goals, creating one on one's where Gilbert got done by Williams - as you say, a better midfield performance changes the catalyst, and probably changes the outcome.

What I don't see (which isn't a criticism, it's not saying I won't just that I haven't yet) is working innovation that will deliver advantage to the Saints. If the offensive plan is ala Essendon and/or Collingwood 2k8, then the Geelong's and Hawthorns will remain tough asks.

It what Lyon does with and around our run that will really dictate his success, both in the W/L column, and as an innovator.

I should note that I don't really need Lyon to be innovative for me to consider him good - he can put together the most boring bits of the boring bits and if it creates wins, I'll call him a good coach. IMO, the biggest change the Saints need to rejoin the true contender is to be better at clearances... since 2005 it's gone from being an enourmous strength to a weakness. If the Saints can break even and win the clearances against good midfields, they'll be incredibly tough to crack.

[yipper]

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I should note that I don't really need Lyon to be innovative for me to consider him good - he can put together the most boring bits of the boring bits and if it creates wins, I'll call him a good coach. IMO, the biggest change the Saints need to rejoin the true contender is to be better at clearances... since 2005 it's gone from being an enourmous strength to a weakness. If the Saints can break even and win the clearances against good midfields, they'll be incredibly tough to crack.

If they get this right, they'll actually be the hardest team in the league to crack!! Reckon we are becoming a very well drilled team. Get our structure right and we will extremely difficult to beat.