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I acknowledge the fact that Roo was magnificent from rounds 13-22 RF and that he had a huge influence on the team. That is what champions do. But I can't agree that you can give one man the credit for getting the other 21 into a finals series. It's a team game and as great a player as Riewoldt is, he can't win games on his own. The whole team and the coaching staff lifted. Sure Roo was the catalyst, but he had plenty of help. I'm thinking Sam Fisher, BJ, Milne, Max and Hayes. They weren't bad either. As for RL, he seemed to do better in the second half of the year. Asserted himself at the selection table and seemed generally more upbeat and positive. Credit where credit's due, no matter how begrudgingly.
Run like Ditterich, arms flailing, cause fear in the enemy, make fellow saints walk tall!
the shadow wrote:I acknowledge the fact that Roo was magnificent from rounds 13-22 RF and that he had a huge influence on the team. That is what champions do. But I can't agree that you can give one man the credit for getting the other 21 into a finals series. It's a team game and as great a player as Riewoldt is, he can't win games on his own. The whole team and the coaching staff lifted. Sure Roo was the catalyst, but he had plenty of help. I'm thinking Sam Fisher, BJ, Milne, Max and Hayes. They weren't bad either. As for RL, he seemed to do better in the second half of the year. Asserted himself at the selection table and seemed generally more upbeat and positive. Credit where credit's due, no matter how begrudgingly.
They all 'weren't bad' all year (except for Lyon), but we weren't winning. We weren't winning until Roo took control of the comp.
It's certainly open for debate. But from my view, we relied almost solely on Roo being the dominant and most influential player on the ground to win games. When he wasn't, we really struggled.
I agree that without him we've looked ordinary. I shudder to think what would happen if he went down with a serious injury. However, I think others are developing well and RL has publicly challenged a number of players (dal, ball, kosi, bj etc..) to step up this year and become truly elite players in the way Riewoldt is. I think that is some recognition that we came up short last year and that part of the solution is for truly talented players to get the maximum benefit from their ability. Let's face it the quickest way to improve is to get more from your better players. Think Geelong 2007. Ling, Johnson, Mooney etc. Hacks who were almost traded at the end of 2006. Major factors in the cats rise and premiership in 2007.
If our potentially elite players do develop and take some of the burden from Riewoldt, I'll be happy to credit the coach with having had some influence. You have rightly pointed out RF, that a good coach gets the best from his players and resources. By the end of the year we'll know whether RL has done that. If we fail, condemn appropriately. If we succeed will you (GULP!) give RL appropriate praise?
Run like Ditterich, arms flailing, cause fear in the enemy, make fellow saints walk tall!
the shadow wrote:
If our potentially elite players do develop and take some of the burden from Riewoldt, I'll be happy to credit the coach with having had some influence. You have rightly pointed out RF, that a good coach gets the best from his players and resources. By the end of the year we'll know whether RL has done that.
He's had 2 years with ready made, quality players. One must ask how long does he need?
the shadow wrote:I agree that without him we've looked ordinary. I shudder to think what would happen if he went down with a serious injury. However, I think others are developing well and RL has publicly challenged a number of players (dal, ball, kosi, bj etc..) to step up this year and become truly elite players in the way Riewoldt is. I think that is some recognition that we came up short last year and that part of the solution is for truly talented players to get the maximum benefit from their ability. Let's face it the quickest way to improve is to get more from your better players. Think Geelong 2007. Ling, Johnson, Mooney etc. Hacks who were almost traded at the end of 2006. Major factors in the cats rise and premiership in 2007.
If our potentially elite players do develop and take some of the burden from Riewoldt, I'll be happy to credit the coach with having had some influence. You have rightly pointed out RF, that a good coach gets the best from his players and resources. By the end of the year we'll know whether RL has done that. If we fail, condemn appropriately. If we succeed will you (GULP!) give RL appropriate praise?
Our potentially elite players apart from BJ were much better 3-4 years ago so they were developed. I dont know what has happened to them but I will be happy if they can play as well as they did 2004/05. I not sure RL should get credit if they only return to what they did 3 years.
Another thread of nosensical 'I don't know what's happening' blah, brought to you by the people who disappeared when we finished in the top 4 last year.
degruch wrote:Another thread of nosensical 'I don't know what's happening' blah, brought to you by the people who disappeared when we finished in the top 4 last year.
degruch wrote:Another thread of nosensical 'I don't know what's happening' blah, brought to you by the people who disappeared when we finished in the top 4 last year.
the shadow wrote:I acknowledge the fact that Roo was magnificent from rounds 13-22 RF and that he had a huge influence on the team. That is what champions do. But I can't agree that you can give one man the credit for getting the other 21 into a finals series. It's a team game and as great a player as Riewoldt is, he can't win games on his own. The whole team and the coaching staff lifted. Sure Roo was the catalyst, but he had plenty of help. I'm thinking Sam Fisher, BJ, Milne, Max and Hayes. They weren't bad either. As for RL, he seemed to do better in the second half of the year. Asserted himself at the selection table and seemed generally more upbeat and positive. Credit where credit's due, no matter how begrudgingly.
They all 'weren't bad' all year (except for Lyon), but we weren't winning. We weren't winning until Roo took control of the comp.
It's certainly open for debate. But from my view, we relied almost solely on Roo being the dominant and most influential player on the ground to win games. When he wasn't, we really struggled.
Agree 1000%
Riewoldt's second half of the year catipulted us into contention. Without him firing - like against Geelong and Hawthorn - we looked horrible and hardly worthy of a finals' spot, let alone top four.
Love how these threads all finish up on the same topics.
Poor old roger, he has no time for modern footy, maybe a fraction more for the current saints, but spends his time posting on here... mate you need to get out more.
Yes footy is a business, even the little club in the country town has to pay its bills and have some success (on the field and off it) to keep alive. It is pure head in the sand stuff to wish for the old days.
I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that the definition of loyalty hasn't changed in the last thirty years.
However all we can do is trust that our players and officials are doing the best that they can at that time to bring success. And I am sure that in that time they create a loyalty amongst them selves and to the club.
As for one player making or breaking a season, hello does anyone remember plugger and say the 89 season.
It happens.
Every club has its weaknesses and sometimes that is an over reliance on one player.
Geelong is lucky they have an even spread but in truth don't have a great forward line.
and so on we could go through each team.
I think that last year we got a good result , we were up against two of the best teams of the last 30 years. Have alook at how great the grand final was.
Sorry roger I know you couldn't be bothered.
Yes footy has changed , but it is still an amazing game that can cater for everyone from the 170com to the 205cm player. That can be fast or slow, tough or ugly. But still mesmerises us for 7 months every year.
Patience RF. I know saints supporters are probably the most patient of all, but I really think we can make a definitive call on RL, going on what happens this season. I think, plugger66, that our potentially elite players did play very well in 2004-5. At that time they also had experienced and exceptional players around them who've since departed. I speak of Hammil, Gehrig, Voss, Jones, Guerra, Black, Powell, Thompson and Peckett. That's a list of players who are not easily replaced and who made life easier for the young guys. For that reason, I don't think the list that RL inherited was as good as many would have you believe.
I would argue that while our young guys did play well in that period, they hadn't reached their full potential, or weren't fully developed. Dal Santo was a case in point. Third in the Brownlow in 2005 (beaten by 2 drug cheats), he became a marked man and his deficiencies have been exposed by various opponents since. I think a few of the Hawthorn lads from last year will suffer a similar fate in the coming year. Kosi on the other hand was on the verge of stardom before a series of unfortunate mishaps clearly curtailed his development. Luke Ball the same. Flying before his OP recurred and turned him from a jet into a WW1 biplane. Xavier Clarke also. Star in '03/'04, constantly injured since. Goose.....well, you get the picture. Good reasons as to why their development has been stifled.
Dal has had a difficult relationship with the coach, culminating in his being dropped last year (I didn't agree with him being dropped BTW). But the message was clear. You are a potentially great player, start playing like one on a consistent basis and in every facet of the game, not just attack. Others will face similar challenges. I think our guys are very talented in a number of areas, but deficient in others. Perhaps we will get the balance of all aspects right this year. If not, the Lyon experiment could be deemed a failure.
So RF, I think 3 years is enough time to implement your strategies and plans, but I believe he has had to have a "mini-rebuild" of the list, which has complicated things a bit. I do think he is on the right track though. Whether the players follow him down that track, to what extent they do, and whatever success they have, will be what he will be judged on. I think the signs are positive.
Run like Ditterich, arms flailing, cause fear in the enemy, make fellow saints walk tall!
the shadow wrote:
I would argue that while our young guys did play well in that period, they hadn't reached their full potential, or weren't fully developed. Dal Santo was a case in point. Third in the Brownlow in 2005 (beaten by 2 drug cheats), he became a marked man and his deficiencies have been exposed by various opponents since. I think a few of the Hawthorn lads from last year will suffer a similar fate in the coming year. Kosi on the other hand was on the verge of stardom before a series of unfortunate mishaps clearly curtailed his development. Luke Ball the same. Flying before his OP recurred and turned him from a jet into a WW1 biplane. Xavier Clarke also. Star in '03/'04, constantly injured since. Goose.....well, you get the picture. Good reasons as to why their development has been stifled.
Clarke, Kosi, Ball, Goose and X were all injured throughout the 2004-2006 period.
Yet we still we highly completitive. Even nearly pinched a GF berth twice, once when we were without 6 of our starting 18.
At the time, we were incorrectly criticised for relying on individual players. Oddly, players who were siting in the grandstand.
We don't play as a team now. We rely on individuals. It's a problem.
the shadow wrote:We also nearly "pinched a grand final berth last year. We've been short of the mark in all three years.
I don't agree with that.
And that's the reason the whole 'top 4 finish' thing doesn't wash with me.
In 04, we nearly pinched a GF. Would have been smashed by Brisbane, so we were off the mark in my view.
In 05, we were the best team. Only decimation through injury prevented us from winning the flag comfortably.
Last year, we pinched a spot in the top 4. We were not clearly in the top 4 best teams in the comp. For the majority of the year we were barely in the top 8 best teams.
In my opinion.
In my opinion, the top 4 of 2005 compared to the top 4 of 2008, although on paper being exactly the same results, were far far different in terms of our overall performance.
the shadow wrote:We also nearly "pinched a grand final berth last year. We've been short of the mark in all three years.
I don't agree with that.
And that's the reason the whole 'top 4 finish' thing doesn't wash with me.
In 04, we nearly pinched a GF. Would have been smashed by Brisbane, so we were off the mark in my view.
In 05, we were the best team. Only decimation through injury prevented us from winning the flag comfortably.
Last year, we pinched a spot in the top 4. We were not clearly in the top 4 best teams in the comp. For the majority of the year we were barely in the top 8 best teams.
In my opinion.
In my opinion, the top 4 of 2005 compared to the top 4 of 2008, although on paper being exactly the same results, were far far different in terms of our overall performance.
crap. 04 was by far and away our best chance for the flag. Brisbane were the walking wounded and were NEVER going to win no matter who they played.
the shadow wrote:We also nearly "pinched a grand final berth last year. We've been short of the mark in all three years.
I don't agree with that.
And that's the reason the whole 'top 4 finish' thing doesn't wash with me.
In 04, we nearly pinched a GF. Would have been smashed by Brisbane, so we were off the mark in my view.
In 05, we were the best team. Only decimation through injury prevented us from winning the flag comfortably.
Last year, we pinched a spot in the top 4. We were not clearly in the top 4 best teams in the comp. For the majority of the year we were barely in the top 8 best teams.
In my opinion.
In my opinion, the top 4 of 2005 compared to the top 4 of 2008, although on paper being exactly the same results, were far far different in terms of our overall performance.
Yet still a top 4 team. We're a top 4 team, as it currently stands too.
IMO, we would have smashed a tired Brissy unit into a million pieces. Winning the prelim against us was Port's ticket to silver, all their supporter's know it too. We were very unlucky, but that's history, as is the team that produced top 4 finishes in '04 and '05.
I think we're looking good this year too, just quietly, and expecting a strong second half of the year (where it counts).
Granted we were closer in both 2004/5 than last year. I am pinning my hopes on the fact that in 2006, we started to decline, whereas I think the graph moved in the right direction again last year. I reckon it'll keep going up.
Run like Ditterich, arms flailing, cause fear in the enemy, make fellow saints walk tall!
degruch wrote:
IMO, we would have smashed a tired Brissy unit into a million pieces. Winning the prelim against us was Port's ticket to silver, all their supporter's know it too. We were very unlucky, but that's history, as is the team that produced top 4 finishes in '04 and '05.
I think we're looking good this year too, just quietly, and expecting a strong second half of the year (where it counts).
People forget that Brisbane beat us by 50 points 3 weeks earlier, then again by 80 points.
It's incredibly rare for a team to turn thsoe types of maulings around.
evertonfc wrote:Riewoldt's second half of the year catipulted us into contention. Without him firing - like against Geelong and Hawthorn - we looked horrible and hardly worthy of a finals' spot, let alone top four
agree. to be a chance we need the whole team firing, not just one player.
doesn't seem so long ago we had a variety of players who could win us a match. time for a few of them to step back up to the plate.
degruch wrote:
IMO, we would have smashed a tired Brissy unit into a million pieces. Winning the prelim against us was Port's ticket to silver, all their supporter's know it too. We were very unlucky, but that's history, as is the team that produced top 4 finishes in '04 and '05.
I think we're looking good this year too, just quietly, and expecting a strong second half of the year (where it counts).
People forget that Brisbane beat us by 50 points 3 weeks earlier, then again by 80 points.
It's incredibly rare for a team to turn thsoe types of maulings around.
But we did...a 100+ point turn around, if I remember correctly. Besides, those maulings were in Brisbane, where we tend to play about 10 goals below our game on a consistant basis to this day.
Let's be honest guys, if the captain goes down for any length of time the team will be screwed. On past performances, Milne becomes the focal point and we as supporters can shite in one hand and wish in the other. We all know what will be filled first.
Don't hope, let's rebuild. let's rebuild a forward line capable of obtaining Lyon's vision of kicking 16 goals per game.
Leave your ego's in the locker when you start and pick them up again when you retire
evertonfc wrote:Riewoldt's second half of the year catipulted us into contention. Without him firing - like against Geelong and Hawthorn - we looked horrible and hardly worthy of a finals' spot, let alone top four
agree. to be a chance we need the whole team firing, not just one player.
doesn't seem so long ago we had a variety of players who could win us a match. time for a few of them to step back up to the plate.
I agree with the sentiment, that it needs to be a good all round effort. I however, don't think that this is impossible...
That's only ever been my concern with Lyon and our team over the past 2 years. We aren't following any sort of plan at all.
We're all over the place.
No method.No system. No coherence. No consistency.
It's Lyon's job to get that. This is my where my criticims stems from.
I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
degruch wrote:
IMO, we would have smashed a tired Brissy unit into a million pieces. Winning the prelim against us was Port's ticket to silver, all their supporter's know it too. We were very unlucky, but that's history, as is the team that produced top 4 finishes in '04 and '05.
I think we're looking good this year too, just quietly, and expecting a strong second half of the year (where it counts).
People forget that Brisbane beat us by 50 points 3 weeks earlier, then again by 80 points.
It's incredibly rare for a team to turn thsoe types of maulings around.
In Round 22 2001 Richmond beat Essendon by 10 goals. Exactly 7 days later in the first week of the finals Essendon won by 13 goals
Rodge...interesting..you are the only Saints fan Ive ever heard say that we'd have struggled v Brisbane the next week. They had just come a very tough brutal ame agasint Geelong the previous week, played in the pouring rain..and had to return to Brissy them come back. A number of injuries..I reckon they were ripe for the picking..as Port found.
