N Burke and R Harvey cant split them

[stinger]

l

i just miss out on having a clear recollection of our great teams of the late 60s and early 70s, but stewie must have been something else.

you should hear my dad on him ... talk about revered tones.

he was .......but roo is better.....

[plugger66]

Does that make him a better player????

I reckon BOG in that premiership win is more significant....

Are all premiership captains great players.....or beneficiaries of a great team....

If Cowboy Neale was injured and could not play and we lost in '66 would Baldock have been any worse....

Captaincy is an honour, no doubt.......but many greats have captained St.Kilda.....but did not have the team to suppport them.

Yes Baldock was a great - as was Coleman......but their careers were short, which takes away from their impact on football.

from memory cooper was best wasn't he....baldock is the only player i know who could turn certain defeat into victory once he came on the ground......i don't really want to separate these saints greats......we could argue this till the cows come home.......

Agree we all have our favourites but the one thing we should agree on is that we hope Steven, Lynch and Conners can force there way onto that list.

[bigcarl]

lockett's not only the best st kilda player i've seen, but, on pure ability, hands down the best footballer (a view shared by r. harvey).

i'd rate banger No 2 and after that it gets hard with winmar, barker, riewoldt, burke, loewe and gehrig all worthy of mention.

i just miss out on having a clear recollection of our great teams of the late 60s and early 70s, but stewie must have been something else.

you should hear my dad on him ... talk about revered tones.

The reason I say Lockett clearly without really seeing Stewie or the Doc is because he always said no Saints player will ever get close to those two. Well that was until Plugger came along that is. He rated him so highly even when he left he just couldnt miss a Swans game on TV. Ask him now who is the best and he mentions only one player, Plugger.

sorry, you've lost me. who are you talking about? your dad?

[plugger66]

lockett's not only the best st kilda player i've seen, but, on pure ability, hands down the best footballer (a view shared by r. harvey).

i'd rate banger No 2 and after that it gets hard with winmar, barker, riewoldt, burke, loewe and gehrig all worthy of mention.

i just miss out on having a clear recollection of our great teams of the late 60s and early 70s, but stewie must have been something else.

you should hear my dad on him ... talk about revered tones.

The reason I say Lockett clearly without really seeing Stewie or the Doc is because he always said no Saints player will ever get close to those two. Well that was until Plugger came along that is. He rated him so highly even when he left he just couldnt miss a Swans game on TV. Ask him now who is the best and he mentions only one player, Plugger.

sorry, you've lost me. who are you talking about? your dad?

Yes sorry I didnt mention my old man.

[bigcarl]

lockett's not only the best st kilda player i've seen, but, on pure ability, hands down the best footballer (a view shared by r. harvey).

i'd rate banger No 2 and after that it gets hard with winmar, barker, riewoldt, burke, loewe and gehrig all worthy of mention.

i just miss out on having a clear recollection of our great teams of the late 60s and early 70s, but stewie must have been something else.

you should hear my dad on him ... talk about revered tones.

The reason I say Lockett clearly without really seeing Stewie or the Doc is because he always said no Saints player will ever get close to those two. Well that was until Plugger came along that is. He rated him so highly even when he left he just couldnt miss a Swans game on TV. Ask him now who is the best and he mentions only one player, Plugger.

sorry, you've lost me. who are you talking about? your dad?

Yes sorry I didnt mention my old man.

mine still reckons stewie, but i take him to task on it.

[BigMart]

No Plugger - that is a ridiculous/dumb reply......seriously.

I will spell it out

I rate sustained excellence over fleeting......and 5 seasons is fleeting (in R.Harvey terms)....

you could split Harves career into three....and he would still be great in all three.

Plugger being the only FF to win a B-low has what to do with it......that means he is arguably the best FF......we he was in 87/91 only two seasons in his Saints career was he the best FF in the AFL.

He was awesome - but games lost in his prime cost him....88/89/90/91/94

[plugger66]

No Plugger - that is a ridiculous/dumb reply......seriously.

I will spell it out

I rate sustained excellence over fleeting......and 5 seasons is fleeting (in R.Harvey terms)....

you could split Harves career into three....and he would still be great in all three.

Plugger being the only FF to win a B-low has what to do with it......that means he is arguably the best FF......we he was in 87/91 only two seasons in his Saints career was he the best FF in the AFL.

He was awesome - but games lost in his prime cost him....88/89/90/91/94

I think winning the brownlow has a fair bit to do with it. It means that in 110 years no other FF was the best player in the comp. Yes he lost a hell of a lot of games but to me that only makes him more special. He also played FF in some of the worst sides in history and still kicked plenty. As i said under your criteria that makes Tuck Hawthorns best player. Is that what you think. And if you do fair enough but IMO that would be wrong.

[mbogo]

Without looking up the stats - weren't there games when we would lose and only kick about 10 goals and Plugger would get 8 or so?
Was there ever a player who could stand beside Plugger and match him man for man? I think not.
This can also be said of Stewart, Doc and Harves to some extent - if Roo learns to kick like Plugger then he can join this group.

[Mr Magic]

Surely the greatest saint....is the player that had the biggest impact at the club.....and by impact I guess we mean - who had the biggest hand in numbers of victories....

It's like arguing about who was the greater batsman
Graeme Pollock 23 Tests - 4 years
Allan Border 156 Tests - 18 years
Who had the bigger impact on Test Cricket

I would suggest that if Baldock spent 10 years in the AFL and not 5 years in his prime with Latrobe he would be remebered as one of the best 5 of all time

SO Bradman , under your ratings system above, is less of a batsman than
Gavaskar
Tendulkar
Lara
Ponting
Border
Waugh
Kallis
etc

because he only scored half the runs they did in 50 odd tests whereas the others played 100= tests?

Or Lillee is less of a fast bowler than
McGrath
Walsh
Dev
etc
because he only played half as many tests as them?

There is a reason that Cricket uses batting/bowling averages rather than raw statistics of runs scored, wickets taken and games played.

I'm sorry but I'm having difficulty trying to understand the logic you are using?

As I said before, ask any Essendon fan how they rate John Coleman despite him only playing 98 games?

[stinger]

Does that make him a better player????

I reckon BOG in that premiership win is more significant....

Are all premiership captains great players.....or beneficiaries of a great team....

If Cowboy Neale was injured and could not play and we lost in '66 would Baldock have been any worse....

Captaincy is an honour, no doubt.......but many greats have captained St.Kilda.....but did not have the team to suppport them.

Yes Baldock was a great - as was Coleman......but their careers were short, which takes away from their impact on football.

from memory cooper was best wasn't he....baldock is the only player i know who could turn certain defeat into victory once he came on the ground......i don't really want to separate these saints greats......we could argue this till the cows come home.......

Agree we all have our favourites but the one thing we should agree on is that we hope Steven, Lynch and Conners can force there way onto that list.

would be nice plugger, but i will settle for one of them making that list in years to come......

[stinger]

No Plugger - that is a ridiculous/dumb reply......seriously.

I will spell it out

I rate sustained excellence over fleeting......and 5 seasons is fleeting (in R.Harvey terms)....

you could split Harves career into three....and he would still be great in all three.

Plugger being the only FF to win a B-low has what to do with it......that means he is arguably the best FF......we he was in 87/91 only two seasons in his Saints career was he the best FF in the AFL.

He was awesome - but games lost in his prime cost him....88/89/90/91/94

the doc actually played for us in the then vfl for 7 seasons...i wouldn't call that fleeting.....




the best three players to have worn the Number 4 (not written by me)

1. Daryl Baldock, 119 games, 1962-68.

The Doc played his first game for the Saints against the Pies in Round 3, 1962 at Victoria Park. We won and I was there. This was a momentous occasion as we rarely won there and a win by 25 points on an Easter Monday was the best Easter present a 12 yr old boy could get. Daryl Baldock went on to lead the Saints to a Premiership in 1966. He won the Saints Best and fairest 3 times in 1962-3 and 1965. From Centre Half Forward he topped the club goal kicking 4 times and was the Saints skipper from 1963 to 1968. In 1987 he took over as coach and lifted us from a dismal 2 wins in 1986 to 9 wins in his first year. Ill health plagued his 3 year tenure as coach and the club did not sustain any improvement. I have chosen Daryl at Centre Half Forward in the Saints Number 4 team of the decades. He is a Saints legend.

2. Tony Lockett, 183 games. 1983-94, No 4 1988-94,
p>Tony Lockett is arguably the greatest Full Forward ever. In 1987 he scored 117 goals and was the first Full Forward to win a Brownlow medal. Injury and suspension prevented further centuries until 1991 when he kicked 127 goals followed by 132 in 1992. Injury prevented him adding to that tally of centuries until he transferred to Sydney where he posted tons in1996 and 1998. Tony Lockett won the Saints Best and Fairest in 1987 and 1991.

There may be some debate over whether Tony Lockett should be regarded as the best number 4 in front of Daryl Baldock but as a supporter who watched them both play, for sheer wizardry and overall talent , Baldock stands alone. I have obviously chosen Tony at Full Forward in this great Number 4 team. He is a member of the Saints Hall of Fame.

3. Barry Breen, 300 games, 1965-82, No 4, 1972-82.

I have chosen Barry Breen as the 3rd best Saints player to pull on the Number 4. Barry Breen won us a premiership when he kicked the winning score in the dying moments of the game. As a 17yr old and still at De La Salle College in Malvern he made his debut for the Saints in 1965. Some time after Baldock left the Saints Breen took over the number 4 and the Centre Half Forward position. He captained the Saints in 1979 playing at Full Back where he played well. He played a then record 300 Games and was a great player for the club. I have chosen Barry at Half Forward in this great Saints team. Barry was elevated to the Saints Hall of Fame in 2007.

[Winmar7Fan]

I suppose a good way to answer this question is if we could have any one of these past players in their prime playing for us now who would it be?

I'll take Locketts consistent 6 - 10 powerhouse goals week in week out over Roos 2 or 3 or anyone elses 35 posessions any day.

Some of us must have short memories about how awesome this guy was.
They used to say no Lockett no St Kilda as much as I don't believe in that sort of thing in this case it was so true.

Every player knew all you had to do was just get it up there and he'd do the rest. Theyd switch 3 or 4 players on him then put 2 on him at once and he'd still make it look easy.

I've never seen anything like him and probably never will again. Definately my best memories of football.

I'm sure If you ask every opposition coach back in those days who they were more concerned about doing the most damage leading up to the game it wasn't Harvey or Bourke.

[BigMart]

No - Michael Tuck does not even rate......I said sustained EXCELLENCE you fool.....L.Matthews would be a better analogy 313 games....

I would Take 385 Harvey games as better than Locketts 183 (half as many) Harvey was BOG almost 3 times more than Lockett to put that in perspective

and a long way ahead of Baldock 119 games....who may not have even been the best saint in that time....although had the biggest rep...

if not, you are overrating the other two, or underrating Rob Harvey.....as everone does...

if you combine Locketts career.....yes he would surpass Harves
the question was
who is the best saint, not the best player.......best player is over a career....

or A Koutafidies is the greatest ever......his 2000 season is possibly the best anyone has ever played

or do we rate Woewodin as a great or a GOP????.......


BTW

Bradman made 7000 Runs at 100....fair to say someone with double anyone's averade with a fair sample is proven to be the best....

[Mr Magic]

Bradman made 7000 Runs at 100....fair to say someone with double anyone's averade with a fair sample is proven to be the best....

Yes but the others have made many more runs (from many more games) and similarly Lillee vs the other bowlers.

It's interesting that you are prepared to use averages for cricketers but will not countenance anything other than longevity for footballers?

[Shaggy]

Bradman made 7000 Runs at 100....fair to say someone with double anyone's averade with a fair sample is proven to be the best....

Yes but the others have made many more runs (from many more games) and similarly Lillee vs the other bowlers.

It's interesting that you are prepared to use averages for cricketers but will not countenance anything other than longevity for footballers?

Thats a bit unfair. Bradman played enough I think to prove he was the best cricketer ever and IMO the best sportperson Austalia has had.

I agree with BigMart's quote "if you combine Locketts career.....yes he would surpass Harves
the question was
who is the best saint, not the best player.......best player is over a career.... "

Harves was our best in 1997 GF. He averaged some 32 possessions in the finals series that year. He won us the Adelaide final in 2005. He was best in the Melbourne final in 2006 up until getting injured. He picked up some 27 possessions per final in his other hit-outs whilst being seriously tagged.

Plus Banger did the hard yards to get us in the finals in the first place which have been relatively frequent since early 1990s compared to pre-banger days.

No other Saints player has that record in finals.

Stewart may be his equal in big games but half or more were with the opposition.

The doc was injured coming into the 66 GF in his short career and what great finals did Plugger play for the Saints?

Banger proved himself partially due to his longetivity. He survived under the Saints banner and proved himself time and again.

Plugger was the best I ever saw don the Saints jumper (Doc was before my time) but he wasn't the best Saint IMO.

Banger has been IMO because he survived to take us forward for 20 years and prove himself in big matches which big Tony didn't. But I am damn proud Plugger played for us because I do think he was the best FF ever.

But for the Saints Banger's recruitment was more important.

Burkey was a wonderful player and a hell of a nice bloke but he was not in the same league as the blokes mentioned above who are in the all time best of the best legends.

[bigcarl]

Banger has been IMO because he survived to take us forward for 20 years and prove himself in big matches which big Tony didn't.

lockett's record in big games was pretty good.

he kicked six (in a losing swans side) in his only grand final appearance.

he kicked nine goals five (in a losing st kilda side) against the cats in our first final since 1973 in the early 1990s.

he won us a hell of a lot of matches, including big ones.

if i had to chose someone to get it and kick a goal to win a match i'd go to lockett every time.

any case it's an argument no-one's going to win, but i agree with robert harvey, who described lockett as the best player he'd ever seen.

interestingly winmar recently described banger as second only to lockett among the guys he had played with.

[Shaggy]

Banger has been IMO because he survived to take us forward for 20 years and prove himself in big matches which big Tony didn't.

lockett's record in big games was excellent.

he kicked six (in a losing swans side) in his only grand final appearance.

he kicked nine (in a losing st kilda side) against the cats in a final for us in the early 1990s.

if i had to chose someone to get it and kick a goal to win a match i'd go to lockett every time.

any case it's an argument no-one's going to win, but i'll go with robert harvey, who described lockett as the best player he'd ever seen.

I take back my wording. I don't mean to suggest Plugger went missing in big games ... on contrary he dominated ... I meant he didn't play in many for whatever reason.

Plugger is my second all time favorite Saint to big Carl.

And I was there for the Geelong game. And at the time I thought Plugger would win us the premiership.

But compared to Banger actually he cannot match it in big games because he didn't play enough of them. And that is why Banger was so special.

[bigcarl]

Banger has been IMO because he survived to take us forward for 20 years and prove himself in big matches which big Tony didn't.

lockett's record in big games was excellent.

he kicked six (in a losing swans side) in his only grand final appearance.

he kicked nine (in a losing st kilda side) against the cats in a final for us in the early 1990s.

if i had to chose someone to get it and kick a goal to win a match i'd go to lockett every time.

any case it's an argument no-one's going to win, but i'll go with robert harvey, who described lockett as the best player he'd ever seen.

I take back my wording. I don't mean suggest Plugger went missing in big games ... on contrary he dominated ... I meant he didn't play in many for whatever reason.

Plugger is my second all time favorite Saint to big Carl.

And I was there for the Geelong game. And at the time I thought Plugger would win us the premiership.

But compared to Banger actually he cannot match it in big games because he didn't play enough of them.

i get your meaning. we agree that both were great champions for st kilda football club.

[Shaggy]

Banger has been IMO because he survived to take us forward for 20 years and prove himself in big matches which big Tony didn't.

lockett's record in big games was excellent.

he kicked six (in a losing swans side) in his only grand final appearance.

he kicked nine (in a losing st kilda side) against the cats in a final for us in the early 1990s.

if i had to chose someone to get it and kick a goal to win a match i'd go to lockett every time.

any case it's an argument no-one's going to win, but i'll go with robert harvey, who described lockett as the best player he'd ever seen.

I take back my wording. I don't mean suggest Plugger went missing in big games ... on contrary he dominated ... I meant he didn't play in many for whatever reason.

Plugger is my second all time favorite Saint to big Carl.

And I was there for the Geelong game. And at the time I thought Plugger would win us the premiership.

But compared to Banger actually he cannot match it in big games because he didn't play enough of them.

i get your meaning. we agree that both were great champions for st kilda football club.

I think we do agree except for my english.

Roo is the interesting current player. IMO he is already slightly above Burkey and Buckets level.

To be amongst the very greats will take a major finals series. Its great watching champions play and see what level they get to.

[plugger66]

No - Michael Tuck does not even rate......I said sustained EXCELLENCE you fool.....L.Matthews would be a better analogy 313 games....

I would Take 385 Harvey games as better than Locketts 183 (half as many) Harvey was BOG almost 3 times more than Lockett to put that in perspective

and a long way ahead of Baldock 119 games....who may not have even been the best saint in that time....although had the biggest rep...

if not, you are overrating the other two, or underrating Rob Harvey.....as everone does...

if you combine Locketts career.....yes he would surpass Harves
the question was
who is the best saint, not the best player.......best player is over a career....

or A Koutafidies is the greatest ever......his 2000 season is possibly the best anyone has ever played

or do we rate Woewodin as a great or a GOP????.......


BTW

Bradman made 7000 Runs at 100....fair to say someone with double anyone's averade with a fair sample is proven to be the best....

Thanks for calling me a fool because I suggested Tuck. Even though he may not be rated the best Hawks player I think their supporters would say he had a very consistant career and actually was playing very well when forced to retire. Just because it doesnt suit your arguement there is no need to say I was a fool for suggesting him.

From what are saying is that Lockett is also behind Loewe and Burke because they also played fantastic all their careers.

Lastly I do not underate Harvey but maybe you are underating how many wins Lockett was directly involved in during his career.

[Mr Magic]

It's interesting to see how semantics can create a heated argument.

IMO Banger was the greatest Saint but not the best Saint.

In my terminology, longevity of service combined with excellence of service make him the greatest.

But the sheer brillioance of Baldock and the pure power of Plugger make them better players.

Similarly Shane Warne was, IMO, the greatest leg spinner Australia has had, but O'reilly may well have been a better leg spinner.

Rightly or wrongly I see a difference between greatest and best.

In the case of Bradman, he was both the greatest and the best. One of the very few sportspeople who can be categorized as both.

[JABBER]

What has Baldock Stewert Lockett got to do with who's the better player Beween Burke or harvey or winmar

[Mr Magic]

my top 10 since 1975 was
1. T Lockett
2. N Winmar
3.4. N Burke, R Harvey
5. N Riewoldt
6. S Loewe
7. G Burns
8. D Frawley
9. T Barker
10. G Train

Given that you posted this on the first page it seems a tad strange that you're now asking why other names have been mentioned in this thread?

#1 on your list is T Lockett - in case you're not aware of it, his naickname is/was Plugger.

Did you forget that you yourself widened the parameters of the discussion?

[JABBER]

mr magic you were the first person to mentioned other players What is Pluggers name
(a) A Lockett
(b) T Lockett
(c) Plugger
(d) All of above

now dont think to hard you might damage half a brain

[Mr Magic]

mr magic you were the first person to mentioned other players What is Pluggers name
(a) A Lockett
(b) T Lockett
(c) Plugger
(d) All of above

now dont think to hard you might damage half a brain

JABBER, as a rule I don't tend to get into slanging matches with children.
There is nothing to be gained in showing their ineptitude up.

Why don't you Just go away before you make a bigger fool of yourself?