N Burke and R Harvey cant split them

[Mr Magic]

Question
Why would Baldock (the legend he was, and I am taswegian) who played 5 seasons even compare to a guy who dominated for 20 seasons....seriously...

I didn't realize that longevity was the final arbiter of greatness rather than just a part of its determination?

I watched all of Baldock's career at St Kilda just as I watched all of Harves' career (and all the greats in between)

Baldock came to St Kilda as a champion in his twenties. Just about every Club in the VFL chased him (Melbourne thought they had his signature on a Form 4) but Ian Drake secured him for us. Like Harvey in the 90's he revolutionized the game of Australian Rules with his skill.

It is only my opinion, but I believe that he was the greatest Saint I have seen. That's not downplaying HArvey as I believe that Baldock is in the top 5 AFL/VFL footballers I have seen (not just Saints).

Under your criteria does that maen Plugger cannot be in the equasion either?
Maybe only players who have played over 300 games?
Breen, Loewe, Burke and Harvey?
Well he's defnitely, IMO, the best of that grouping.

[mbogo]

What a classic thread ...
I only saw Baldock on TV and he was about five levels above anyone his size that played - he seemed to do impossible things every week.
Ian Stewart I saw quite a bit and he took the game apart on a forward flank or centre - even when he went to Richmond. He took some of the greatest marks I have seen - like Winmar!! 3 Brownlows and All Australian centreman - shee-it.
Harves, Burke, Lockett - best ever at FF!
My rating ...
1. Lockett - impossible to beat with less than three opponents
2. Stewart - see above
3. Harvey 350+ of the best games
4. Baldock - simply brilliant, but short lived career it seems.
5. Winmar - sublime and could take Ablett apart
6. Ditterich - did anyone see him on here? - unbelievable leadership
6. Burkey - sheer guts and never gave less than 100% over 300

yes draw for number 6
.... none go close to these .... yet

[plugger66]

Plugger is clearly the best Saint in the last 30 years and even as good as Baldock and Stewart obviously were I could never go past him. The interesting one is Rooy. He has already won 4 B&F in a very good era for the club so where do we rate him at the moment. Must be right up there you would think .

[mbogo]

Yeah OK - he is a great - but I want to see a brilliant PF or GF performance to put him up there - I think all of the others did that.
eg: N. Winmar game in PF against Nth in 97

[saintly_safes]

I love Robert Harvey more than my own brother but in the 40 odd years Ive followed the saints as much as it hurts me he is no.2 on my list . This is imo so feel free to bag me or give me yours as i'm sure there are some guys that ive missed that maybe could have got a gurnsey or you see things different but here it is

1.A. Lockett (out & out super star)
2.R.Harvey (fortius quo fidelius)
3.T.Barker (the great white hope)
4.N.Burke (captain courageous)
5.Neil Elvis Winmar (excitment machine)
6.S.Loewe (the markologist)
7.N.Riewoldt (extreme athlete)
8.D. Frawley ( mr reliable)
9.G.Burns (tough as old boots)
10.D.Grant (mr underated)
apologys to D.Baldock ,I.Stewart & others that i never had the pleasure of watching & to L. Hayes, B.Goddard & the other up & coming players as I might have to reassess in 5 years time, cheers "go saints"

[saintbob]

I was asked the other day who was the better player between Burkey And Harves my answer was both were great footballers and i could not split them i also added thet N Winmar was slighty better than both of them

your joking..............?????


banger is one of the top ten footballers of all time..........winmar top 100 maybe.......still one of the saints alltime greats.......burkey would probably rate in the top 200......maybe 300.....

Spot on Stinger, the 3 players are poles apart.

Harvey - A champion in every sense of the word

Burke - Always gave his all and you could count on him week in week out

Winmar - Freakish, but could be hot and cold

[WayneJudson42]

I agree that oyu cannot judge a player based on games played, because there have been some asolute freaks who's career has been cut short by injury.

Whilst I admire 35 for his longevity...

Baldock played CHF and was undersized and still carved them up.

Lockett was an absolute freak

Look at the 66 GF video and take a note of the Stewart's skills... a class above. Stewart was one player who would slot into the modern game.

The one doubt I've had... and don't howl me on this... is that RH never seemed to have the ability to win a game off his boot. Then again, he was instrumental in setting things up.

[Mr Magic]

I agree that oyu cannot judge a player based on games played, because there have been some asolute freaks who's career has been cut short by injury.

Essendon's John Coleman springs to mind - he only played 98 games before injury ruined his career but surely no-one is going to say he didn't play long enough to consider him one of the all-time greats of the AFL/VFl?

Incidentaly, The Doc played about 20 games more than Coleman.

[JABBER]

all the player so far mentioned are great players i had G Burns in my top 10 beacause of his G& T as a youngster watching the terrible teams in the 1980s he stood out across the centre The G Train for his entrertainment as well as kicking 100 goals in a season L Hayes And Nick Dal Santo are great players and Brendon Goddard are on the way up and in the years to come i will rate S Fisher and J Gram as well.I also liked G Dunne as a backpocket player in the early 1980s

[Winmar7Fan]

In my opinion Harvey and Burke were great work horses for four quarters contributing a lot to many wins but Lockett and Winmar were able to do great things and win matches off their own boot.

I remember If Lockett or Winmar were out not only did it take a lot of the excitement out of the game it really had you thinking this could seriously change things, where you never really thought that with Harvey or Burke out.

[Zed]

I'm stating the bleeding obvious - but they were all very differnet types of players.

Dont underestimate Burkie - Burkie was one of the greatest in and under players our club has ever produced. My challenge to you is to name 3 better in and under players who have played for us.

Harvey - pure consistent class. A once in a generation player.

Winmar - from a brilliance perpective, by far the most magical of the 3, but as mentioned by others not as consistent as Burkie and Harves.

All 3 could win a game of their own boot - but it all depends on what other players you have around them.

Consider this - hypothetically, if all 3 were playing last year and fully fit in their prime:
(Q1) which player in his prime would have been most value to us in the PF against Hawthorn ?
(Q2) which player would have been most value to Geelong in the GF against Hawthorn ?
(Q3) which player would have been most value to Collingwood in the SF against us ?

In my opinon answers to above questions are:
(A1) Burkie
(A2) Winmar
(A3) Harvey

[Mr Magic]

[quote="Zed"]I'm stating the bleeding obvious - but they were all very differnet types of players.

Dont underestimate Burkie - Burkie was one of the greatest in and under players our club has ever produced. My challenge to you is to name 3 better in and under players who have played for us.
/quote]

No disrespect to Burkie but I would have the following as better 'in and under' players than him:-

Ross Smith
Lenny Hayes
Luke Ball (prior to his OP and injuries)

[stinger]

I agree that oyu cannot judge a player based on games played, because there have been some asolute freaks who's career has been cut short by injury.

Whilst I admire 35 for his longevity...

Baldock played CHF and was undersized and still carved them up.

Lockett was an absolute freak

Look at the 66 GF video and take a note of the Stewart's skills... a class above. Stewart was one player who would slot into the modern game.

The one doubt I've had... and don't howl me on this... is that RH never seemed to have the ability to win a game off his boot. Then again, he was instrumental in setting things up.

baldock and plugger regularly won games off their own boot......but so did georgie young and big bill....banger ocassionally.....

.some very astute judges of football flesh rate stewart the greatest ever footballer.......we are f****** lucky that we can call them saint players.........plugger and stewart deserted the ship........reasons don't matter....the doc, burkie and banger would never have done that.............

[BigMart]

Surely the greatest saint....is the player that had the biggest impact at the club.....and by impact I guess we mean - who had the biggest hand in numbers of victories....

It's like arguing about who was the greater batsman
Graeme Pollock 23 Tests - 4 years
Allan Border 156 Tests - 18 years
Who had the bigger impact on Test Cricket

I would suggest that if Baldock spent 10 years in the AFL and not 5 years in his prime with Latrobe he would be remebered as one of the best 5 of all time


Must be careful to look at Lockett as only a saint.....and not the 600+ he kicked at Sydney....

then you could say....at their absolute best, who was the best

Baldock it could be argued played his best footy in Tassie, and bad knees saw him diminished a bit towards the end of his time at the saints....I would argue that Baldock came with a reputation that enhanced his output as a player.....yes he was a genius....but for effect Stewart was probably more influential as a player over that period.....however both were top line

Best game
Harvey vs WB
48 Possessions 3 goals

Best season
Avg 32 Possesions 1 goal

#8 BOG in Vic Rep (really it was 4)

8 Times selected in the AFL team of the year (Lockett 3, Baldock 3, Winmar 2, Burke 3)

So IMO - The answer is still Rob Harvey...

[plugger66]

Surely the greatest saint....is the player that had the biggest impact at the club.....and by impact I guess we mean - who had the biggest hand in numbers of victories....

It's like arguing about who was the greater batsman
Graeme Pollock 23 Tests - 4 years
Allan Border 156 Tests - 18 years
Who had the bigger impact on Test Cricket

I would suggest that if Baldock spent 10 years in the AFL and not 5 years in his prime with Latrobe he would be remebered as one of the best 5 of all time


Must be careful to look at Lockett as only a saint.....and not the 600+ he kicked at Sydney....

then you could say....at their absolute best, who was the best

Baldock it could be argued played his best footy in Tassie, and bad knees saw him diminished a bit towards the end of his time at the saints....I would argue that Baldock came with a reputation that enhanced his output as a player.....yes he was a genius....but for effect Stewart was probably more influential as a player over that period.....however both were top line

Best game
Harvey vs WB
48 Possessions 3 goals

Best season
Avg 32 Possesions 1 goal

#8 BOG in Vic Rep (really it was 4)

8 Times selected in the AFL team of the year (Lockett 3, Baldock 3, Winmar 2, Burke 3)

So IMO - The answer is still Rob Harvey...

You can make stats do anything to win an arguement. The stats I would use to say Lockett is the best are the only FF to win a brownlow, the highest average of goals in a season per game by any player in the history of the game in 1991. Come top 5 in goalkicking in 1984-85 when we were clearly one of the worst sides ever to play in the AFL/VFL and must have won more games off his own boot than any Saints player has ever done.

[stinger]

Surely the greatest saint....is the player that had the biggest impact at the club.....and by impact I guess we mean - who had the biggest hand in numbers of victories....

It's like arguing about who was the greater batsman
Graeme Pollock 23 Tests - 4 years
Allan Border 156 Tests - 18 years
Who had the bigger impact on Test Cricket

I would suggest that if Baldock spent 10 years in the AFL and not 5 years in his prime with Latrobe he would be remebered as one of the best 5 of all time


Must be careful to look at Lockett as only a saint.....and not the 600+ he kicked at Sydney....

then you could say....at their absolute best, who was the best

Baldock it could be argued played his best footy in Tassie, and bad knees saw him diminished a bit towards the end of his time at the saints....I would argue that Baldock came with a reputation that enhanced his output as a player.....yes he was a genius....but for effect Stewart was probably more influential as a player over that period.....however both were top line

Best game
Harvey vs WB
48 Possessions 3 goals

Best season
Avg 32 Possesions 1 goal

#8 BOG in Vic Rep (really it was 4)

8 Times selected in the AFL team of the year (Lockett 3, Baldock 3, Winmar 2, Burke 3)

So IMO - The answer is still Rob Harvey...

captain of our only premiership team......probably a fair size impact st mart....

[BigMart]

Does that make him a better player????

I reckon BOG in that premiership win is more significant....

Are all premiership captains great players.....or beneficiaries of a great team....

If Cowboy Neale was injured and could not play and we lost in '66 would Baldock have been any worse....

Captaincy is an honour, no doubt.......but many greats have captained St.Kilda.....but did not have the team to suppport them.

Yes Baldock was a great - as was Coleman......but their careers were short, which takes away from their impact on football.

[plugger66]

Does that make him a better player????

I reckon BOG in that premiership win is more significant....

Are all premiership captains great players.....or beneficiaries of a great team....

If Cowboy Neale was injured and could not play and we lost in '66 would Baldock have been any worse....

Captaincy is an honour, no doubt.......but many greats have captained St.Kilda.....but did not have the team to suppport them.

Yes Baldock was a great - as was Coleman......but their careers were short, which takes away from their impact on football.

Under your criteria that means Michael Tuck is clearly Hawthorns best player which I would doubt myself.

[bigcarl]

lockett's not only the best st kilda player i've seen, but, on pure ability, hands down the best footballer (a view shared by r. harvey).

i'd rate banger No 2 and after that it gets hard with winmar, barker, riewoldt, burke, loewe and gehrig all worthy of mention.

i just miss out on having a clear recollection of our great teams of the late 60s and early 70s, but stewie must have been something else.

you should hear my dad on him ... talk about revered tones.

[plugger66]

lockett's not only the best st kilda player i've seen, but, on pure ability, hands down the best footballer (a view shared by r. harvey).

i'd rate banger No 2 and after that it gets hard with winmar, barker, riewoldt, burke, loewe and gehrig all worthy of mention.

i just miss out on having a clear recollection of our great teams of the late 60s and early 70s, but stewie must have been something else.

you should hear my dad on him ... talk about revered tones.

The reason I say Lockett clearly without really seeing Stewie or the Doc is because my old man always said no Saints player will ever get close to those two. Well that was until Plugger came along that is. He rated him so highly even when he left he just couldnt miss a Swans game on TV. Ask him now who is the best and he mentions only one player, Plugger.

[TriColourDisciple]

Really?.. You rate Gehrig as possiby the Saints 3rd greatest player of all time?

[TriColourDisciple]

I booed Plugger when the Swines played the Saints.
Loved him in our jumper...hated him in theirs.

[stinger]

What a classic thread ...
I only saw Baldock on TV and he was about five levels above anyone his size that played - he seemed to do impossible things every week.
Ian Stewart I saw quite a bit and he took the game apart on a forward flank or centre - even when he went to Richmond. He took some of the greatest marks I have seen - like Winmar!! 3 Brownlows and All Australian centreman - shee-it.
Harves, Burke, Lockett - best ever at FF!
My rating ...
1. Lockett - impossible to beat with less than three opponents
2. Stewart - see above
3. Harvey 350+ of the best games
4. Baldock - simply brilliant, but short lived career it seems.
5. Winmar - sublime and could take Ablett apart
6. Ditterich - did anyone see him on here? - unbelievable leadership
6. Burkey - sheer guts and never gave less than 100% over 300

yes draw for number 6
.... none go close to these .... yet

yep...saw him play his first game as a 17 year old....played with and against him in junior comps before that......out and out champion who put the fear of god into the 18 players on the other side...our best ever ruckman......

[bigcarl]

Really?.. You rate Gehrig as possiby the Saints 3rd greatest player of all time?

no, but he'd be in my top six or seven. a coleman medallist who led our goalkicking for quite a few years ... that shouldn't be underestimated.

very talented footballer, fraser.

[stinger]

Does that make him a better player????

I reckon BOG in that premiership win is more significant....

Are all premiership captains great players.....or beneficiaries of a great team....

If Cowboy Neale was injured and could not play and we lost in '66 would Baldock have been any worse....

Captaincy is an honour, no doubt.......but many greats have captained St.Kilda.....but did not have the team to suppport them.

Yes Baldock was a great - as was Coleman......but their careers were short, which takes away from their impact on football.

from memory cooper was best wasn't he....baldock is the only player i know who could turn certain defeat into victory once he came on the ground......i don't really want to separate these saints greats......we could argue this till the cows come home.......