Clinton Jones

[Solar]

Jason Blake 84.71
Brendon Goddard 81.38
Samuel Fisher 81.08
Raphael Clarke 81.08
James Gwilt 80.79

pleasantly surprised with blake and raph. some on here close their eyes and groan when either have the ball, so maybe they'll have to rethink their attitudes to these players.

not suprised by either blake or raph. Alot of the turnovers that raph made early last year was because he tried to make the play and had NO support or options to kick to. It was little wonder that once the team around him supported these runs and defensive marking that he glowed.

You also have to remember that alot of this is short kicking and it would be more interesting to see pressured turnovers v no pressure and length of disposal.

[bigcarl]

Jason Blake 84.71
Brendon Goddard 81.38
Samuel Fisher 81.08
Raphael Clarke 81.08
James Gwilt 80.79

pleasantly surprised with blake and raph. some on here close their eyes and groan when either have the ball, so maybe they'll have to rethink their attitudes to these players.

not suprised by either blake or raph. Alot of the turnovers that raph made early last year was because he tried to make the play and had NO support or options to kick to. It was little wonder that once the team around him supported these runs and defensive marking that he glowed.

You also have to remember that alot of this is short kicking and it would be more interesting to see pressured turnovers v no pressure and length of disposal.

yes, both raph and blake did a fair bit of chipping around the backline, but the same could be said of bj and fisher.

like i said, i'm not sure how much can be read into stats like these. a lot of things come into it, including the sort of role they have. but they are interesting reading.

[JeffDunne]

Interesting stats bigcarl and they don't really surprise me at all.

[evertonfc]

FFS - a few posters point out what can be improved in his game and then get hung out to dry? Gimme a break..

Not like you to be melodramtic when someone disagrees with an opinion . . .

Anyhow, you're all over the place in that post. One minute you're claiming the game has changed and the next minute you're talking about Greg Williams.

Didn't hit the mark but good attempt all the same. And wasn't Greg Williams playing until 1997 BTW? Yeah, that's 1960s.

Anyway, elevating above such pettiness, the interesting point made with Andrew Thompson seems to stem purely from the fact he wasn't a great kick - which is true.

Neither was Stephen Powell, for what it's worth. Yet both were able to play important and sizable roles for this club. It's worth examining why that is.

While all three players (inclduing Jones) have poor footskills, Thompson and Powell were superb in-and-under players. Their ability to win the ball in traffic was excellent and their ability to stop their opponants from winning the ball in the packs was equally strong.

Now, Jones is a different player. He's not a pack-to-pack player with us - we use Ball, Hayes and increasingly Montagna for that role. Baker, when fit, can also found in there and I'd expect Armitage to do that as well.

But Jones isn't. I often see him being the last player to dive on a pack; this may create the false view he is in-and-under but he is not that. He is an outside player, for the most part. And he has value to our club - I think anyone who saw him in R1 last year or chase down Buddy would agree he's prepared to put in significant effort.

The question for me remains whether or not, at 25 (not 18 or 19), he has the requisite levels of improvement left in his game that could make him a fully-functioning member of a premiership-winning St Kilda midfield.

I guess I'm not totally sure. In many ways, I feel that Farren Ray is a more similar player. Except one thing Ray has is time on his side - at 22, is not unfair to assume that by 25, he'll be a better player than Jones currently is?

On that basis, if you're talking about our best 22, Ray probably pips him for the outside-midfielder-with-pace-but-little-skill role. His potential at junior level indicates he's been able to dominate his peers before, so it's a matter of him putting in an extrodinary amount of hard work to get back to where he can play.

That leaves Jones out of our best 22 for mine, but given our inevitable injuries, I'm pretty sure he'll playing most games this year as he does seem rather durable.

[JeffDunne]

Didn't hit the mark but good attempt all the same.

The smilie & condescension would prove otherwise.

And wasn't Greg Williams playing until 1997 BTW? Yeah, that's 1960s.

Yeah, and . . . ???

We are talking about the game as played in 2008/2009 are we not?

I guess I'm not totally sure.

Who is?

In many ways, I feel that Farren Ray is a more similar player. Except one thing Ray has is time on his side - at 22, is not unfair to assume that by 25, he'll be a better player than Jones currently is?

Why would you "assume" that?

Ray has already been in the AFL system longer.

On that basis, if you're talking about our best 22, Ray probably pips him for the outside-midfielder-with-pace-but-little-skill role. His potential at junior level indicates he's been able to dominate his peers before, so it's a matter of him putting in an extrodinary amount of hard work to get back to where he can play.

Can you remind me why the Bulldogs were preprared to let him go?

Disposal & decision making have anything to do with it?

[thirty-seven!?]

I just watched the Robert Harvey tribute DVD from my membership, which arrived today, and through an interview with Harves, he commented that when he started (admittedly as a teenager), he was nothing special as far as disposal went, yet realised his need for an edge over the competition - so he trained so hard on his gut running - Im sure you know the story.

Now i feel this is the same story with players such as McQualter, Jones and Eddy - three players with average disposal, who could all be put in to the "tries hard" category. We know the story of McQ - was delisted, rookied and had a kick up the bum, and by all reports is now working harder than ever on his fitness - same as Harves did. It is the same for Eddy and Clint - working hard on other areas of their game that THEY HAVE CONTROL OVER - fitness can be increased - skills are much harder to control.

Hopefully this is making sense...

Simply what im saying is that these bottom few may not need to have Goddard-like disposals if they can take a different aspect of their game to an above average level. Just as we'd accept a player with fantastic skills, but not too fast...

We do need players like Clint in our team... I agree - his disposals can be woeful... but i feel we should still have a place for him...

[evertonfc]

Ray has already been in the AFL system longer.

Sure has - as a skinny kid who was picked as a 17 year old. That's a lot of groundwork the Dogs have put in.

He could be a late bloomer - as Jones is - or he may not.

Can you remind me why the Bulldogs were preprared to let him go?

Disposal & decision making have anything to do with it?

Absolutely - the two reasons you mentioned. And the Dogs would have cut Clinton Jones by now as well.

But they are hell-bent of piecing together an elite midfield that is packed with guys who have two out of these three attributes: ball-winners, quality users of the footy or pace to burn.

Ray and Jones tick the pace box, get a 0 for footy usage and half a pass mark for ball-winning ability. They get good stats but seldom win their own contested footy when compared with elite-level 'extractors'.

I peg them at similar levels right now, but with an extra three years up his sleeve and probably more raw ability, I'd prefer we went with Ray. Having said that, I'm fairly convinced Lyon will stick with Jones if he had to make a choice between the two. Jones doesn't make quite as many hair-pulling clangers as he once did.

Be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Saints94]

If he really wants to replace him he needs to improve his kicking skills tackling, pressure etc, is brilliant

[evertonfc]

If he really wants to replace him he needs to improve his kicking skills tackling, pressure etc, is brilliant

Homey I would like to see Ross challenge both of them to 'win' that 22nd spot, and say there's only room for one of you...unless you can both break the door down and make two spots available.

[Saints94]

If he really wants to replace him he needs to improve his kicking skills tackling, pressure etc, is brilliant

Homey I would like to see Ross challenge both of them to 'win' that 22nd spot, and say there's only room for one of you...unless you can both break the door down and make two spots available.

Tungatulem?

[evertonfc]

Tungatulem?

You never know with Choo Choo

[Saints94]

Tungatulem?

You never know with Choo Choo

He has a long way to go yet before he makes his senior debut

[BigMart]

How do they calculate those percentages?.....useless stat...Ball would have far more disposals under pressure than Hudghton for instance....


Cannot compare Blake and Jones.....different types....and finally Blake is in his best role.....using his running power and athletisism on a running fwd to negate them.....CJ is a mid/flanker.....skill is a pre-requisite for such a player.....

Only really players whose main role is to negate, can be carried with poor foot skills....

Hudghton, Baker (who has OK skills), Blake etc...

Our worst mid by foot.....Lenny Hayes

[bigcarl]

How do they calculate those percentages?.....useless stat...Ball would have far more disposals under pressure than Hudghton for instance

well i guess it's the number of times out of a hundred they hit the intended target with their disposal. but, yes, they are certainly open to interpretation as i was quick to point out.

[Teflon]

Anyway, elevating above such pettiness, the interesting point made with Andrew Thompson seems to stem purely from the fact he wasn't a great kick - which is true.

Neither was Stephen Powell, for what it's worth. Yet both were able to play important and sizable roles for this club. It's worth examining why that is.

While all three players (inclduing Jones) have poor footskills, Thompson and Powell were superb in-and-under players. Their ability to win the ball in traffic was excellent and their ability to stop their opponants from winning the ball in the packs was equally strong.

Now, Jones is a different player. He's not a pack-to-pack player with us - we use Ball, Hayes and increasingly Montagna for that role. Baker, when fit, can also found in there and I'd expect Armitage to do that as well.

But Jones isn't. I often see him being the last player to dive on a pack; this may create the false view he is in-and-under but he is not that.

Perception is a funny thing.

I dont see Jones as just the 'last to dive on packs' and hence a false in and under type at all.

While he's not Luke Ball (few are) or Armo he IMHO represents similar type to Montagna (without the foot skills). He will chase, will tackle (so will Joey)..has speed and can break lines and we dont have huge numbers of these and losing a legend run and carry type in Harvey perhaps exacerbates the need for a Jones in the team... (Gram as contrast......will corale before eventually having his tackle shrugged....but Gram CAN break lines AND score). I havent seen enough of Ray to make a call...or compare....will be interesting to see but I can see why he was recruited - lets hope he works hard cause his chances after us are small.

Perhaps the Thompson example relates more to the endeavour I see in both players starting careers late knowing they dont have all the skills and for that recognising they need to work. BOTH players to me have work ethic - Jones isnt lazy....I like that. He knows he isnt Dal Santo....so did Thommo......and overcame it. The comparison was never based solely on poor foot skills...(we'd be lining them up all day from Moorrabin if that was the case...).

[sunsaint]

For example, Greg Williams had a crack handball. Scott West was a ferret under packs. Sam Mitchell is the 'extractor'. Very few 'outside' midfielders (which Jones is effectively played as) succeed in the game without being able to hit targets.

Comparing him to Dal Santo is just wrong. Dal Santo is a Rolls Royce in need of a quick tune up. Jones is a second-hand sports car with no handling.

With respect EvFC
mentioning CJ with those guys, the games elite, in the same sentence is a bit tough. Can you remember the third string onballer that lined up with Williams?
One of the reasons why I will stick up for players like CJ, Blake etc, is the effort to paycheck ratio. You just cant expect a player such as CJ to be as good as a player earning 3times more. Which brings me to the next point...
The fact that alot of saints supporters talk about CJ Vs NDS, to me just indicates how far NDS has slipped in peoples' expectations.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

How do they calculate those percentages?.....useless stat...Ball would have far more disposals under pressure than Hudghton for instance....


Cannot compare Blake and Jones.....different types....and finally Blake is in his best role.....using his running power and athletisism on a running fwd to negate them.....CJ is a mid/flanker.....skill is a pre-requisite for such a player.....

Only really players whose main role is to negate, can be carried with poor foot skills....

Hudghton, Baker (who has OK skills), Blake etc...

Our worst mid by foot.....Lenny Hayes

Far from useless, just need to be taken in context of usual position and contested possessions (when combined, IMO the most useful stats available to get a feel for a players usefulness anywhere but the forwardline). They'd be better if we had the breakdow between kicking and handball efficiency, but we can work with what we've got.

Rule of thumb, expect your average forward to be in the 65-70 range (it's dropped since they finally decided a behind was an innefective disposal), mids from 70-75, and backs from 75-85 depending on how much they rotate through the midfield and get contested possessions.

Hayes is a good example, until 2008 he was a very reliable disposal... but being used more in and under and kicking out of packs under pressure (he'd always been inside, but rarely went from picking the ball up directly to kicking as he did in '08) he was far less reliable to hit targets... his awful goalkicking wouldn't have helped either.

As for CJ, as is pointed out above, he's not winning a large percentage of his possessions in a contest (94 of 356, so ~ 26%, which isn't anything to sneeze at - it's in line with Leigh Montagna, whose efficiency is actually lower) and is also impacted by having a kick:handball of < 1:1, which suggests he's doing his best work as an outside link man.

From observation, that shouldn't belittle Jones, the Saints struggled (especially in the first half) with the running game they were trying to play by making a lot of mistakes by hand. That contested rate is also heavily affected by role, a HFF is going to be under the ruckman's toes rarely... given his courage and general athleticism, I wouldn't be surprised if Jones were able to quite successfully play an in and under role (in fact, I think that's his challenge in continuing to improve, moving into the middle to win the ball and get it to a better kicking teammate).

His kicking will never be his best asset, but is servicable when not under pressure. He's the type of player that well used, will have a decent career without ever being a star, because beyond one gaping flaw, he's proven himself.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

The fact that alot of saints supporters talk about CJ Vs NDS, to me just indicates how far NDS has slipped in peoples' expectations.

Indicates to me that they either have no idea about CJ's game, or no idea about NDS. Guts and blue collar work ethic may be easier to relate to than skill, poise and class (i.e. it may be easier to like CJ), but the only commonality is that they're both "midfielders" in the widest sense of the word.

[Richter]

The reasons CJ got a game last year.....

- injuries e.g. to X, Ball

- up and coming players like Armo not stepping up

- willingness to pressure the opposition when he doesn't have the ball.

----------------------------------

If we are to win a flag then I really don't think that CJ will get much game time - quite simply with the ball he does not hurt the opposition. He's competing for one of the last couple of midfielder spots...... I hope that the likes of X, Armo, Ray will step up for these. I'd personally put all of McQualter, Eddy, Geary ahead of CJ.

[saintbob]

The fact that alot of saints supporters talk about CJ Vs NDS, to me just indicates how far NDS has slipped in peoples' expectations.

Indicates to me that they either have no idea about CJ's game, or no idea about NDS. Guts and blue collar work ethic may be easier to relate to than skill, poise and class (i.e. it may be easier to like CJ), but the only commonality is that they're both "midfielders" in the widest sense of the word.

NDS - Lazy, lethargic and at times very uncommitted to the cause.
Skill, poise and class are all things that this man has an abundence of but last year showed very little of. Needs a very big year to re-establish his Rolls Royce tag.

CJ - Guts and blue collar work ethic are certainly words which sit pretty comfortably with this bloke. Yes his disposal can be bad at times, but while he continues to have a red hot go every week RL will continue to pick him because the sometimes lack lustre performances of our so called super stars. Very much in the mould of Thompson and Powell IMO, and these two were a vital part of our team.

[WayneJudson42]

WTF does age have to do with scope for improvement?

Many palyers hit their maximum potential by 18... and don't get any better.

So why is the consensus that at 25, Jones doesn't have any improvement left? Why should age diminish his potential?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

The reasons CJ got a game last year.....

- injuries e.g. to X, Ball

- up and coming players like Armo not stepping up

- willingness to pressure the opposition when he doesn't have the ball.

----------------------------------

If we are to win a flag then I really don't think that CJ will get much game time - quite simply with the ball he does not hurt the opposition. He's competing for one of the last couple of midfielder spots...... I hope that the likes of X, Armo, Ray will step up for these. I'd personally put all of McQualter, Eddy, Geary ahead of CJ.

I would like to be able to put any of those guys ahead of CJ. The only one listed who came close in 2008 was Farren Ray.

Clinton Jones averaged 18 touches a game. That's not easy to do from the HFF, X was at 13 (if he can every shake his injuries, he could move ahead quickly one would think), Armo at 10, Geary 11, Eddy 13, McQualter 11.

That's a lot of bad disposing Jones has to do to get the other guys into the equation.

He either needs to go backwards, or others need to go forward to see Jones dropped. The reason Jones got into the team may have been injuries etc, but he was among the most improved Saints last year, and none of the young guys have an inside track on his spot at the moment.

[bigcarl]

NDS - Lazy, lethargic and at times very uncommitted to the cause.

that is the popular perception, but without being privvy to the inner workings of his mind how can you say it with any certainty?

maybe he simply doesn't have the tank to be able to play four quarters as a gut-running midfielder and continually burn off the best taggers in the game.

they can't all run like harvey, judd or riewoldt.

they can can work on it and improve it to a degree, but the tank a player takes on to the football field is never much better than what he is born with

i'd like to see dal used in a different role this season. either loose across half back or (my preference) as a permanent half forward. see if a different role without as much gut running makes a difference.

used correctly he's one of our potential match-winners and hopefully he can get back to that rather than being a favourite whipping boy.

fwiw i'd find a spot for cj in our best 22 also

[Richter]

I would like to be able to put any of those guys ahead of CJ. The only one listed who came close in 2008 was Farren Ray.

Clinton Jones averaged 18 touches a game. That's not easy to do from the HFF, X was at 13 (if he can every shake his injuries, he could move ahead quickly one would think), Armo at 10, Geary 11, Eddy 13, McQualter 11.

That's a lot of bad disposing Jones has to do to get the other guys into the equation.

He either needs to go backwards, or others need to go forward to see Jones dropped. The reason Jones got into the team may have been injuries etc, but he was among the most improved Saints last year, and none of the young guys have an inside track on his spot at the moment.

I suppose that what I'm saying is that I would prefer to play any of Armo, Geary, Eddy, (?Steven to step up this year) even if they don't currently get as many possessions as I see them as having more potential than CJ. Blue collar's all very well but CJ just doesn't do enough else IMO and I'd rather be giving a younger kid with more potential a go in front of him.

[sunsaint]

this should not be a CJ vs NDS thread, the two are so far poles apart its not funny. A seventh year player vs a second year player. So to knock CJ due to lack of skills is a bit rich, he is also earning 2-3 times less than NDS. I agree with WJ42, age has nothing to do with it. What was the age of Gehrig when he moved from FB to a Coleman medallist. Improvement can come at any age and at any position on the ground.
The signs were there at the end of '07 for CJ, yes he may have had the fortune of injury to X, or the lack of pressure from below, but he was obviously considered better than Birss/McQualter in most of the games he was named. (X is a whole other issue tho) YOU EARN YOUR SPOT
As for NDS being a Rolls Royce to my mind he is more like a Chrysler PT Cruiser Cabriolet. Looks so cool, cruises round & gets noticed, everone would love to have one, but in the end has no guts.

This year will be interesting one in the middle for both CJ & Dal.
If as everyone is saying we will have Goddard, Gram, Fisher doing time in the center, then CJ will most likely be the biggest loser for a spot. For the same reasons I think this will also put pressure on NDS, who I believe must move onto the HFF.
But back to CJ, perceived lack of skills or not, he would always get a game in my side simply for the fact he is prepared to chase down a player 20mts away and not just put in a token effort.
The day we dont have room for CJ, will be the day that our players are so perfect, the opposition never gets possession of the ball.