Clinton Jones

[meher baba]

Some of you have made some good points in support of CJ. Forgive me for still not being totally convinced.

I really don't care how hard he works or how many possessions he gets. If a player with poor disposal gets lots of possessions, then the consequence is generally that a team's attacking raids are slowed down and misdirected.

What I particularly liked about the Hawks towards the end of 2008 was the speed and accuracy of their disposal by foot through the midfield and into their forward line. I want to see the same at the Saints.

If the likes of Ball, Lenny, Gram, Schneider, Armo and Ray were better kickers (and Joey a more consistent kicker), then there'd possibly be a place in our midfield for a hard worker with poor kicking skills.

But the fact is, we are not overendowed with players who can kick accurately. Hence, JD, it does matter if Jones is the worst player in our top 22.

Anyway, whatever. If CJ ends up playing seniors throughout 2009, I'll be cheering him on just as much as anyone else who wears the R,W and B. I hope he proves me 100% wrong.

[WinnersOnly]

No top 4 team in the last 10 years has had a player as poorly skilled as CJ playing with them... Not only is he the worst kick in the competition his handballing and vision is not a lot better.

[santazzi]

Some of you have made some good points in support of CJ. Forgive me for still not being totally convinced.

I really don't care how hard he works or how many possessions he gets. If a player with poor disposal gets lots of possessions, then the consequence is generally that a team's attacking raids are slowed down and misdirected.

What I particularly liked about the Hawks towards the end of 2008 was the speed and accuracy of their disposal by foot through the midfield and into their forward line. I want to see the same at the Saints.

If the likes of Ball, Lenny, Gram, Schneider, Armo and Ray were better kickers (and Joey a more consistent kicker), then there'd possibly be a place in our midfield for a hard worker with poor kicking skills.

But the fact is, we are not overendowed with players who can kick accurately. Hence, JD, it does matter if Jones is the worst player in our top 22.

Anyway, whatever. If CJ ends up playing seniors throughout 2009, I'll be cheering him on just as much as anyone else who wears the R,W and B. I hope he proves me 100% wrong.

Are kickers born or made? If you noticed change in the Hawk's disposal towards the end of 2008 then the later may be the case. I also think that it is a statistical improbability that some teams collect a lot of goog kickers and others bad ones. It may have something to do with nurture rather than nature. What is that our coaches are not doing? Or to that matter doing but is not productive.

[HarveysDeciple]

If Clinton Jones is the worst player in our 22 this year then we will the flag. Jesus people, perspective.

There's plenty of higher profile & higher paid players than him that kill us with their disposal, so I really don't understand this Saintsational fascination with his skill level.

We whip fringe players for skill errors and have done so for decades, yet we blow wind up the arse of supposed 'champions' who don't match these players for effort yet make as many blunders. Why is that?

spot on

[markp]

22 Dals or 22 CJ's?

Dals is obviously a better and more talented player (by a mile), when he turns it on his polish and class is virtually second to none... but work rate and accountability can be patchy....

What about 22 Dals vs 22 CJ's?

I think the CJ's may win!

[evertonfc]

FFS - a few posters point out what can be improved in his game and then get hung out to dry? Gimme a break.

Marto and Meher are spot on. The bloke has some reasonable attributes but his kicking is poor. He only hits targets when pressure isn't around and his ball-carrying speed is well over-stated in my view. I find more value in his ability to run for 120 minutes, which I think has been underestimated.

He's a serial lollypopper under pressure, often resulting a turnover as our guys get caught flat-footed under the ball.

Football has emerged so far from the days of scrappers with no skill. It's not the 1960s any more. If you lack skill by foot, you must have outstanding other qualities to contribute.

For example, Greg Williams had a crack handball. Scott West was a ferret under packs. Sam Mitchell is the 'extractor'. Very few 'outside' midfielders (which Jones is effectively played as) succeed in the game without being able to hit targets.

Comparing him to Dal Santo is just wrong. Dal Santo is a Rolls Royce in need of a quick tune up. Jones is a second-hand sports car with no handling.

He's worth his spot on the list for now, make no mistake. But I'd like to think we've created a side that's strong enough to keep him from the best 22, unless he's improved out of sight.

[PJ]

One thing is for sure Ross likes what he does and will give him a crack on most occasions - yep, if we're that good CJ can't get a game then i don't think we'll have too much to complain about.

[JeffDunne]

But the fact is, we are not overendowed with players who can kick accurately.

While I do agree with that in terms of where we were at the end of last season, I don't agree that it's a given going forward.

Hence, JD, it does matter if Jones is the worst player in our top 22.

Sorry, I don't understand that logic.

If our skills don't improve accross the board it won't matter if CJ's in the 22 or not. Hence, why I do see why his skills are such an issue.

[JeffDunne]

FFS - a few posters point out what can be improved in his game and then get hung out to dry? Gimme a break..

Not like you to be melodramtic when someone disagrees with an opinion . . .

Anyhow, you're all over the place in that post. One minute you're claiming the game has changed and the next minute you're talking about Greg Williams.

Most aren't questioning the oberservations on CJ's skills, they are simply questioning the obsession with it.

Our skills over the past couple of seasons have been woeful. Ball, Dal Santo, Roo, Lenny, etc have all made some critical skill errors at critical times. I'm not talking isolated incidents either. Some of the decision making by thee stars has bordered on terrible. Now there's a variety of reasons for this and I'm sure they are being addressed, but IMO they are far more critical then if CJ can improve his. Like not even in the same ballpark in terms of importance.

CJ makes blunders and his disposal can be poor, but I have far more confidence in him using it as motivation to force the next turnover than most of those 'stars' that I listed.

[saintsRrising]

Have a look at Bateman's first six years.....all quite ordinary.

Did anyone think then that at 27 Bateman would play like he did in 2008?

I would not be writing off CJ just yet as he HAS displayed the hunger to improve...and improve he has steadily done since arriving.

[JeffDunne]

Bateman has far more natural talent than CJ IMO.

I don't think CJ has a huge upside because he's not getting the best out of himself - I'd have said that about Bateman

[saintsRrising]

I agree that Bateman had more upside...but I doubt I would have thought so early on.

But CJ has upside.....he has the right ATTITUDE and work ethic on the track and in games.

While many focus on his flaws...in many aspects he is better than many on our list.

As I mentioned early in the thread I doubt he will ever be a star (but yes will deliver highlights). But yes I can see him improving more...and with that he may well keep his place in the 22.

Will Armo improve?
Will Steven emerge?
Will Ray find a place with us?
Will Eddy keep improving?
Will Geary find those kilos and also start to show that game in the AFL he has been able to play in the VFL?
Will X finally arrive?
Will Baker come back successfully?
Will McQualter improve?

If there are mainly yeses to those questions then CJ may get squeezed out. A few nos and then I can see CJ racking up a lot more games yet.

I can see CJ keeping Mini out for example.

[JeffDunne]

Sorry, my english was a little clumsy.

What I meant was that unlike Bateman, his upside is not due to lack of effort. Bateman was a lazy SOB.

CJ I'm confident will improve but part of that improvement will come from experience and knowing his limitations. Belief for a bloke like him has to be a major factor - I doubt he believed he was a walk up 22 last year too.

[saintsRrising]

Yes I agree with that...

I think that 2008 would have been great for his self-belief.

With more confidence (and experience at the highest level) I think his decision-making and kicking will improve.

Blake for example IMO improved vastly over the last couple of seasons for the same reason. His "frozen rabbit in the headlight" moments that used to ruin otherwise ok games seem to have disappeared.....and his use of the ball has improved markedly as well.

[Solar]

a good example for CJ would be blake. His disposal while not in CJ's range (much better technique) blakes decision making under pressure was horrible. But the guy has guts, passion and the ability to do the team jobs. Has managed to cut down his turn overs and is now one of the first picked....

CJ will never be a lovely kick and I agree with marto in that he will never improve this area. But he can improve his ability to buy space and through better decision making put less pessure on his skills. When you make a good decision the excution does not have to be perfect as you are already putting it to your team mates advantage. One area he could improve is hitting the target with his handball. This would gain him some time and space also.

[Teflon]

CJ as a footballer in some respects reminds me of Andrew Thompson - not as in and under but not scared to lay a tackle and have a dip and both werent/arent great by foot but CJ does add run and carry and some dash which has been important in hurrying opposition players up. Both he and Thompson could tackle and I think CJ has the similar endeavour to want to improve -he strikes me as the determined type that knows he doesnt have thousands of chances left at this level.

The reality is no side has nor will have a side of brilliant disposers of the footy - you need a balance and players of other attributes can and do add another dimension. Theres a place for CJ - he must continue to work hard - but if he can continue with the pressure application he put on Buddy Franklin and gather disposals and improve their efectiveness (he doesnt need to be Dal - Lenny Hayes isnt) he's more than useful. What I do like about him is he does appear to read the play quite well and can get the pill.

To be fair Im surprised at the level of scrutiny he comes under in comparison to Mqualter who IMO offers little in the way of disposal, has less pace/run/carry and gets less of the ball.

[Solar]

CJ as a footballer in some respects reminds me of Andrew Thompson - not as in and under but not scared to lay a tackle and have a dip and both werent/arent great by foot but CJ does add run and carry and some dash which has been important in hurrying opposition players up. Both he and Thompson could tackle and I think CJ has the similar endeavour to want to improve -he strikes me as the determined type that knows he doesnt have thousands of chances left at this level.

The reality is no side has nor will have a side of brilliant disposers of the footy - you need a balance and players of other attributes can and do add another dimension. Theres a place for CJ - he must continue to work hard - but if he can continue with the pressure application he put on Buddy Franklin and gather disposals and improve their efectiveness (he doesnt need to be Dal - Lenny Hayes isnt) he's more than useful. What I do like about him is he does appear to read the play quite well and can get the pill.

To be fair Im surprised at the level of scrutiny he comes under in comparison to Mqualter who IMO offers little in the way of disposal, has less pace/run/carry and gets less of the ball.

to be fair thommo had a better technique then CJ

[Teflon]

CJ as a footballer in some respects reminds me of Andrew Thompson - not as in and under but not scared to lay a tackle and have a dip and both werent/arent great by foot but CJ does add run and carry and some dash which has been important in hurrying opposition players up. Both he and Thompson could tackle and I think CJ has the similar endeavour to want to improve -he strikes me as the determined type that knows he doesnt have thousands of chances left at this level.

The reality is no side has nor will have a side of brilliant disposers of the footy - you need a balance and players of other attributes can and do add another dimension. Theres a place for CJ - he must continue to work hard - but if he can continue with the pressure application he put on Buddy Franklin and gather disposals and improve their efectiveness (he doesnt need to be Dal - Lenny Hayes isnt) he's more than useful. What I do like about him is he does appear to read the play quite well and can get the pill.

To be fair Im surprised at the level of scrutiny he comes under in comparison to Mqualter who IMO offers little in the way of disposal, has less pace/run/carry and gets less of the ball.

to be fair thommo had a better technique then CJ

Thommo certainly didnt look as ungamely as Jones but Thompson was an ordinary kick of the footy lets be honest - I watched many times as he sprayed the ball out on the full but always knew he'd make that up in the 1% dept. There is similarity IMO.

[Solar]

CJ as a footballer in some respects reminds me of Andrew Thompson - not as in and under but not scared to lay a tackle and have a dip and both werent/arent great by foot but CJ does add run and carry and some dash which has been important in hurrying opposition players up. Both he and Thompson could tackle and I think CJ has the similar endeavour to want to improve -he strikes me as the determined type that knows he doesnt have thousands of chances left at this level.

The reality is no side has nor will have a side of brilliant disposers of the footy - you need a balance and players of other attributes can and do add another dimension. Theres a place for CJ - he must continue to work hard - but if he can continue with the pressure application he put on Buddy Franklin and gather disposals and improve their efectiveness (he doesnt need to be Dal - Lenny Hayes isnt) he's more than useful. What I do like about him is he does appear to read the play quite well and can get the pill.

To be fair Im surprised at the level of scrutiny he comes under in comparison to Mqualter who IMO offers little in the way of disposal, has less pace/run/carry and gets less of the ball.

to be fair thommo had a better technique then CJ

Thommo certainly didnt look as ungamely as Jones but Thompson was an ordinary kick of the footy lets be honest - I watched many times as he sprayed the ball out on the full but always knew he'd make that up in the 1% dept. There is similarity IMO.

I think that with thommo it was a decision making problem plus he was an out and out inside midfielder and small forward. In CJ's role of gut running outside mid he just needs to hit targets

[Teflon]

CJ as a footballer in some respects reminds me of Andrew Thompson - not as in and under but not scared to lay a tackle and have a dip and both werent/arent great by foot but CJ does add run and carry and some dash which has been important in hurrying opposition players up. Both he and Thompson could tackle and I think CJ has the similar endeavour to want to improve -he strikes me as the determined type that knows he doesnt have thousands of chances left at this level.

The reality is no side has nor will have a side of brilliant disposers of the footy - you need a balance and players of other attributes can and do add another dimension. Theres a place for CJ - he must continue to work hard - but if he can continue with the pressure application he put on Buddy Franklin and gather disposals and improve their efectiveness (he doesnt need to be Dal - Lenny Hayes isnt) he's more than useful. What I do like about him is he does appear to read the play quite well and can get the pill.

To be fair Im surprised at the level of scrutiny he comes under in comparison to Mqualter who IMO offers little in the way of disposal, has less pace/run/carry and gets less of the ball.

to be fair thommo had a better technique then CJ

Thommo certainly didnt look as ungamely as Jones but Thompson was an ordinary kick of the footy lets be honest - I watched many times as he sprayed the ball out on the full but always knew he'd make that up in the 1% dept. There is similarity IMO.

I think that with thommo it was a decision making problem plus he was an out and out inside midfielder and small forward. In CJ's role of gut running outside mid he just needs to hit targets

True CJ is definately a run and carry type mid.....I dont reckon he's entirely 'outside' aka Dal or even Gram.....Jones can win his own ball and does have reasonable defensive pressure to his game that many true outsiders appear to lack.

[bigcarl]

Are kickers born or made? If you noticed change in the Hawk's disposal towards the end of 2008 then the later may be the case. I also think that it is a statistical improbability that some teams collect a lot of goog kickers and others bad ones. It may have something to do with nurture rather than nature. What is that our coaches are not doing? Or to that matter doing but is not productive.

with hawthorn i'd say their apparent great disposal has a lot to do with their gameplan and set up.

if you had franklin and roughhead waiting on the end of everything, you'd be encouraged to move it quickly and directly, too.

let's face it, they'd have rocks in their heads to stuff around with chipalotto and little handballs.

back to cj, i'm not sure his disposal is as bad as people seem to think. i'd be interested to see some stats on his effectiveness.

[Solar]

CJ as a footballer in some respects reminds me of Andrew Thompson - not as in and under but not scared to lay a tackle and have a dip and both werent/arent great by foot but CJ does add run and carry and some dash which has been important in hurrying opposition players up. Both he and Thompson could tackle and I think CJ has the similar endeavour to want to improve -he strikes me as the determined type that knows he doesnt have thousands of chances left at this level.

The reality is no side has nor will have a side of brilliant disposers of the footy - you need a balance and players of other attributes can and do add another dimension. Theres a place for CJ - he must continue to work hard - but if he can continue with the pressure application he put on Buddy Franklin and gather disposals and improve their efectiveness (he doesnt need to be Dal - Lenny Hayes isnt) he's more than useful. What I do like about him is he does appear to read the play quite well and can get the pill.

To be fair Im surprised at the level of scrutiny he comes under in comparison to Mqualter who IMO offers little in the way of disposal, has less pace/run/carry and gets less of the ball.

to be fair thommo had a better technique then CJ

Thommo certainly didnt look as ungamely as Jones but Thompson was an ordinary kick of the footy lets be honest - I watched many times as he sprayed the ball out on the full but always knew he'd make that up in the 1% dept. There is similarity IMO.

I think that with thommo it was a decision making problem plus he was an out and out inside midfielder and small forward. In CJ's role of gut running outside mid he just needs to hit targets

True CJ is definately a run and carry type mid.....I dont reckon he's entirely 'outside' aka Dal or even Gram.....Jones can win his own ball and does have reasonable defensive pressure to his game that many true outsiders appear to lack.

agreed, key will also be can he create space and time for those with better disposal (see dal).

From memory CJ's turnover count did dip late in the year before the finals.

[the_D_train]

Clint Jones disposal efficiency was 74 % according to the Herald Sun but that is kicking and handballing combined.... (http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/261743.html)


season stats
Kicks 160 Tackles 71
Handballs 194 Goals 6
Disposal 354 Behinds 8
Disposal Efficiency 74% Score Assists 14
Contested Possessions 94 Time on ground 81% (20 Matches)
Uncontested Possessions 261 Super coach 1509 pts (171st)

[MasonCJ2]

CJ as a player simply creates division because he has some tremendous assets - pace, tackling, commitment, gut running etc (some of which, particularly the first, is in short supply) - but he has the major deficiency of his kicking. Depending on where you opinion lies on the relative importance of those things probably determines the various opinions of him. In contrast, McQualter is arguably ok on most assets, hence he is viewed as having assets that neither are a liability or a great advantage. Just to sit on the fence some more, I certainly think there is a place for him given those attributes but I can't help feel that I wish there wasn't (ie, we were stronger).

The Hawks definitely targeted disposal over the past 3-5 years. Most clubs would target those with excellent disposal (say, where there were limited other attributes), but it can come down to whether those later draft picks and rookie picks actually come off. Some of the likes of Young (rookie), Dew (a punt on a big dude), Guerra (picked off the trash) would have been sought out for that reason, and luckily for them, they produced.

[bigcarl]

Clint Jones disposal efficiency was 74 % according to the Herald Sun but that is kicking and handballing combined.... (http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/261743.html

http://saints.com.au/Season2009/Stats/t ... fault.aspx

% effective disposals 2008, source saints.com.au

don't know how much faith can be put in these sort of stats, but these are interesting reading.

Max Hudghton 90.42
Jason Blake 84.71
Brendon Goddard 81.38
Samuel Fisher 81.08
Raphael Clarke 81.08
James Gwilt 80.79
Sam Gilbert 78.28
Sean Dempster 77.35
David Armitage 76.69
Jason Gram 76.37
Nick Dal Santo 75.85
Andrew McQualter 75.56
Jarryn Geary 75.44
Adam Schneider 74.82
Steven King 74.69
Lenny Hayes 74.39
Clinton Jones 74.29
Xavier Clarke 73.33
Leigh Montagna 73.19
Justin Koschitzke 73.00
Michael S. Gardiner 69.51
Luke Ball 69.13
Nick Riewoldt 68.78
Robert Eddy 68.18
Jarryd Allen 65.22
Stephen Milne 63.17


so jones isn't the best, but others you might not expect are worse according to these figures.

interesting that our main goal-kickers, roo and milne, are on the bottom rungs. obviously they count a point as an ineffective disposal, so the stats probably look worse for guys who have a lot of shots at goal.

also guys like luke ball are in heavy traffic when they make most of their disposals, so i guess you have to bear that in mind.

pleasantly surprised with blake and raph. some on here close their eyes and groan when either have the ball, so maybe they'll have to rethink their attitudes to these players.