2009 Team Shaping Up

[PJ]

We don't have any forward options from last year's list so either we re-invent someone as a forward or we have to go to a first year player.

Not sure option 2 is going to cut it next year against the top 2 teams.

We are a little exposed here - don't know if Sam F is best fit but someone with experience must go in if we are to compete.

This is perhaps our only recruiting short fall in terms of the short term future.

If one of our current experienced players can step up with a new guy we are a chance. This is our biggest area of concern.

[To the top]

I would like to see Koschitzke (after a full, uninterrupted pre-season) given the "gig" at CHF. I just have a view he could very well exceed there with his skill set. He is too confined when played as a full-forward and therefore relied upon to lead with his overhead marking (his strength) basically negated including because of defensive numbers being able to drop back to a designated area being the goal square - including being able to "block" his contesting which frequently happens.

His marking when dropping back into defence borders on spectacular because his opponents are making the ball their object and he gets a free run at it - unimpeded by what he encounters at the other end of the ground. And that is not to say he is a defender, because he is an offensive player.

Sam Fisher I would really like to see "freed up" to a back flank (Maguire and the Gods willing) where his zoning off capabilities, control of the region and the ball and his ability to move forward to also create will improve this side.

Then again I have always liked the scenario where we have someone "parked" on a defensive flank who would be a key defender in any other side.

All this still leaves questions over our forward line and our goal scoring options - which we must improve on.

In 2008 we had Riewoldt and Milne over 50 goals then Schnieder and Koschitzke over 30 then Gram over 20.

I am a very long way from convinced that we can afford 2 "small forwards" in both Milne and Schnieder no matter their 2008 goal returns because we need players dangerous overhead also and playing 2 "small forwards" limits the development of that attacking outcome.

You look at Williams (Hawthorn) and Johnson (Geelong) as the "medium forward" requirement, able to add overhead danger (and ground level danger) to the overhead danger of their bigger forwards - and having 2 "small forwards", both with very limited mid field capabilities, is a problem we can not afford to have if we want to develop and improve.

Such a mix would compliment the "small forward" we should look to play - and I include Steven in that mix because his edge in quickness accross the ground attracts me because of the defensive requirements of the "small forward" role.

[bigcarl]

I would like to see Koschitzke (after a full, uninterrupted pre-season) given the "gig" at CHF. I just have a view he could very well exceed there with his skill set. He is too confined when played as a full-forward and therefore relied upon to lead with his overhead marking (his strength) basically negated including because of defensive numbers being able to drop back to a designated area being the goal square - including being able to "block" his contesting which frequently happens.

His marking when dropping back into defence borders on spectacular because his opponents are making the ball their object and he gets a free run at it - unimpeded by what he encounters at the other end of the ground. And that is not to say he is a defender, because he is an offensive player.

Sam Fisher I would really like to see "freed up" to a back flank (Maguire and the Gods willing) where his zoning off capabilities, control of the region and the ball and his ability to move forward to also create will improve this side.

Then again I have always liked the scenario where we have someone "parked" on a defensive flank who would be a key defender in any other side.

All this still leaves questions over our forward line and our goal scoring options - which we must improve on.

In 2008 we had Riewoldt and Milne over 50 goals then Schnieder and Koschitzke over 30 then Gram over 20.

I am a very long way from convinced that we can afford 2 "small forwards" in both Milne and Schnieder no matter their 2008 goal returns because we need players dangerous overhead also and playing 2 "small forwards" limits the development of that attacking outcome.

You look at Williams (Hawthorn) and Johnson (Geelong) as the "medium forward" requirement, able to add overhead danger (and ground level danger) to the overhead danger of their bigger forwards - and having 2 "small forwards", both with very limited mid field capabilities, is a problem we can not afford to have if we want to develop and improve.

Such a mix would compliment the "small forward" we should look to play - and I include Steven in that mix because his edge in quickness accross the ground attracts me because of the defensive requirements of the "small forward" role.

always interested in your views TTT as you tend to think quite deeply about what you say. not that i necessarily agree.

reading between the lines, you'd play riewoldt on the wing and kosi at chf. that's interesting because it might force kosi out of roo's shadow and help him become the player that he should be.

then again it might not.

i'd almost concede it is would be worth a try IF we had a genuine goal-kicking full forward, because riewoldt no doubt would still contribute many goals in the "richo" role.

as it stands, we don't have one.

what would your team look like and how would you set up the forward line? would it kick enough goals?

[To the top]

5.10PM on the 1st January on this Thread.

[bigcarl]

xxxxxxx Hudgden Gilbert
Gram Maguire (on a hope and a prayer) S. Fisher
Riewoldt (nominal on a wing and the "X" factor to improve our accross the park performance and leadership) Goddard Hayes
X. Clarke, Koschitzke, R. Clarke
Steven (we NEED him or his equilivant) xxxxxxxx Ball
King DalSanto Montagna
Gardiner Armitage (ditto Steven) xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx.

i'd find a spot for milne somewhere. surely he'd be ahead of steven at this stage. schneider would be, too, for that matter.

runs (or goals) on the board have to count for something.

there's a few xxxxxx factors there, noteably full forward.

[To the top]

With a little reflection, I would probably name R. Clarke on the interchange bench as a rotating mid-fielder.

The reason for this is that I would prefer a genuine goal kicker parked on a half forward flank, with the physical attributes of R. Clarke.

I think X. Clarke could become dangerous on goal, turning onto his left plus he has an overhead capacity as well as a ground level capacity (frequently too fool hardy in his attack).

Ball I recall in the game Milne kicked 11 and won all the plaudits, but Ball significantly contributed (kicking 4 I think) because he attracted with his overhead and ground level capacities, freeing Milne who ran amok and was the ultimate beneficiary on the score book. Ball made the space that night and showed he is deceptive and strong overhead.

Steven, I just think the next generation needs to stand up - we can not afford to become the Sheffield Shield competition populated as it is by mature aged, 30 year plus players and with no "next generation" players showcasing (except Hughes). Ditto Armitage and there really has to be one other who commands and cements a spot in 2009. This is our future.

There are some XXXXXX's, and the ability of players to put up their hands and claim positions will dictate the outcome for St Kilda in 2009 - and onwards, which is equally important!

I have said what I have said about playing 2 "small forwards" - I just do not think we can afford to do so because they are beneficiaries and not focus players - the ideal is for all your forwards to be focus players but, given defensive and offensive pace, it has been shown there is a place for a "small forward" in top teams.

I am never seduced by goal kickers per se, because I have a view that, if the ball is going in there someone is going to be on the end of it having the "ping" at goal.

A little different with someone playing out of full forward I know, but the principle of having multiple avenues on goal is what team is all about - responsibility to get the job done rests with all.

[bigcarl]

I am never seduced by goal kickers per se, because I have a view that, if the ball is going in there someone is going to be on the end of it having the "ping" at goal.

yes, but you wouldn't deny that some players have a knack of kicking goals and others simply don't.

to my mind that makes someone like milne 10 times more valuable as a forward than (on the limited evidence of last year) gwilt or eddy, for example.

raph clarke to the midfield i agree with. he could be something really special if he can build on the confidence those last six games would have given him.

always liked ball as a forward, too. he's a very smart footballer. but the question is whether we can spare him from a midfield that lacks depth.

[Solar]

I am never seduced by goal kickers per se, because I have a view that, if the ball is going in there someone is going to be on the end of it having the "ping" at goal.

yes, but you wouldn't deny that some players have a knack of kicking goals and others simply don't.

to my mind that makes someone like milne 10 times more valuable as a forward than (on the limited evidence of last year) gwilt or eddy, for example.

raph clarke to the midfield i agree with. he could be something really special if he can build on the confidence those last six games would have given him.

always liked ball as a forward, too. he's a very smart footballer. but the question is whether we can spare him from a midfield that lacks depth.

agree carl re: milne, you can't teach that in a footballer, sometimes players just know where the big sticks are. The only problem last year with milne was work rate. Sometimes just knowing a player is chasing you can lead to a pressured turn over. This was what milne improved on and he was the one to lift us many a time in that final 2 months.

if stevens and armo stand up we might be able to work all through the midfield and forward positions. Thus allowing all three to work their magic in close.

[saint66au]

Steven, I just think the next generation needs to stand up - we can not afford to become the Sheffield Shield competition populated as it is by mature aged, 30 year plus players and with no "next generation" players showcasing (except Hughes). Ditto Armitage and there really has to be one other who commands and cements a spot in 2009. This is our future.

Good analogy and agree 100%

[bigcarl]

Steven, I just think the next generation needs to stand up - we can not afford to become the Sheffield Shield competition populated as it is by mature aged, 30 year plus players and with no "next generation" players showcasing (except Hughes). Ditto Armitage and there really has to be one other who commands and cements a spot in 2009. This is our future.

Good analogy and agree 100%

i agree with it, too, as a general principle, but i don't think it applies in milney's case.

he was the best performed small forward in the competition last season with 60 goals and must have won us four or five games.

he finished ninth in the coleman medal and could easily have been picked as the small forward in the all australian team.

he turns 29 in march, which is not old for a player who is still contributing plenty.

unless steven can force his way into the side by sheer "weight of runs" (to continue the cricketing analogy) then i'd make him bide his time.

[PJ]

For me it's not what Milne produces or what Rooy does that we are missing.

It's that leading forward ala fraser. Someone fast enough on the lead and secure with hands to cause defences headaches. It's a traditional set up I know the leading forward but we only have NR, usually double teamed. The ball arrives in our forward 50 slowly and with no space. The forwards must have pace.

Milney buzzes around and can find space where none existed but we need someone that

1/ Is above 190
2/ Fast over 20 mtrs
3/ Solid grab
4/ Can kick straight

Who in the saints line up fits this bill?
How tall is Tom Lynch? (I'm seriously hoping this guy has speed)
How quick is Jimmy Gwilt?
How good is P Cahill?
Is big Ben worth a shot?
Who can apply forward pressure so that the ball gets held in the forward 50?


The forward set up last year was, shall we say less than affective.

[bigcarl]

For me it's not what Milne produces or what Rooy does that we are missing.

It's that leading forward ala fraser.

exactly

[mad saint guy]

1/ Is above 190
2/ Fast over 20 mtrs
3/ Solid grab
4/ Can kick straight

Lynch fits the criteria, although there have occasionally been some questions on his kicking.

Cahill is an athletic freak but skill are erratic.

I think they're the only two who could come close to that criteria. Allen and McEvoy are both too slow. Gwilt too slow and too short.

[Saintersss]

First of all, I would hope Begley would not make our starting 22. The guy couldn't get a place in brisbane's 38, why would he make our 22. Some of you are seriously overating him.

And why would we move fisher out of half back, where he won AA. And Riewoldt to the wing. (our only decent forward). Our improvement is not going to come from moving our best players to different postions, but from our lesser players, playing better and putting them into the right positions.

And what we are obviously missing is another tall forward. I think we have to take Lynch and Cahill out of the equation. I doubt a first year KPP will be able to cause teams trouble. So that leaves us with either McEvoy, Dawson or possibly R. clarke.

[terry smith rules]

And why would we move fisher out of hack back, where he won AA. And Riewoldt to the wing. (our only decent forward). Our improvement is not going to come from moving our best players to different postions, but from our lesser players, playing better and putting them into the right positions.

well done

clearly the most relevant comment on this site for some time

fqf

[PJ]

clearly the most relevant comment on this site for some time

Sorry Terence have to disagree with both you and Saintersss, it's all about structure.

What we were doing last year as a team just didn't cut it. So you have your best players where they can do the most damage. For Sam F it's not half back he's way more capable.

BJ is a play maker, Sam F can also set up well.

We need flexibility and a more fluid movement into the forward 50.

With our new recruits they will be doing a job like schneids and dempster did last year.

Nick R will be in the forward line but if the occasion suits move him around.

How do you beat the saints? - as you stated he's our only decent forward so it's simple you limit Riewoldt's capacity as a forward, job done.

We need to be way less predictable and we need more forwards.

As far as Saintersss's comment's about Begley - well let's just see how it pans out. Him and Ray are ear marked for the backline.

With Begley you have to remember the guy has only been playing for 3 or so years. I agree with comments made by Ricky Nixon to the affect that he may well work out to be a great pick up as his learning curve is still going up quite rapidly.

Ricky's spent a bit of time sussing out the irish market and what development they require to make it in the AFL.

The one that I still struggle with is Sam Gilbert - he's capable both down back and going forward. He can carry the ball but doesn't fit in the mold of a midfielder. Where to ??

[degruch]

With all the new talent onboard for '09, I doubt we'd be testing existing successful KPP's in new positions...we need to see how the new guys fit into the structure first, during the club intra's and pre-season.

Riewoldt can be shut down and the Saints still win the match...Milne is capable of semi-regular 5 goal hauls, Schnieder (to a lesser extent IMO) too. If you revamp our mid and backline (as will happen when new AFL ready guys like Begley, Ray, possibly Dawson and Steven are introduced), guys like BJ and Gram could become significant new forward options. However, in the interim, I wouldn't like to see too many changes up forward.

Meanwhile, only a mad man would move Fisher from the backline IMO.

[saintsRrising]

Meanwhile, only a mad man would move Fisher from the backline IMO.

Ross "The Madman" Lyon will IMO use Sam Fisher at times in the midfield in 2009.

I doubt he will use him as a forward though.

Reason being that Sam sets up play brilliantly...and he can do this well in either backline or the midfield......

[bigcarl]

Ross "The Madman" Lyon will IMO use Sam Fisher at times in the midfield in 2009. I doubt he will use him as a forward though.

Interesting that he was seen training with the forwards recently, though.

when marto reported that i thought that perhaps fisher has been earmarked to give us a viable leading/marking target other than riewoldt. god knows we need one.

[sunsaint]

With all the new talent onboard for '09, I doubt we'd be testing existing successful KPP's in new positions...we need to see how the new guys fit into the structure first, during the club intra's and pre-season.

Riewoldt can be shut down and the Saints still win the match...Milne is capable of semi-regular 5 goal hauls, Schnieder (to a lesser extent IMO) too. If you revamp our mid and backline (as will happen when new AFL ready guys like Begley, Ray, possibly Dawson and Steven are introduced), guys like BJ and Gram could become significant new forward options. However, in the interim, I wouldn't like to see too many changes up forward.

Meanwhile, only a mad man would move Fisher from the backline IMO.

Degruch I'm quoting you but this is not directed at you...
I cant see why so many have these incredibaly assumptions that our "new talent" from the '08 draft is,
1: an immediate walk up start to our line up
2: any better than the other 15 teams "new talent" to come into the side.

Of the guys we know about Begley, Dawson and Ray, the jury is still out whether they will play. Certainly Ray is looking better than the other two, but once dempster comes back it will be hard for Begley, who has shocking disposal.

I think a few are still warmed by the glow of the '07 draft. We picked up bargain ready made quality players. In '08 the club has gone through a rebuilding draft, and i'm not convinced the side will be tipped upside down, because any wholesale changes will just open up gaps at the other end of the ground. We just dont have the luxury of say a Wojinski and Hawkins waiting in the sidelines.

Having said all that....NDS to a half forward flank in 09

[degruch]

Degruch I'm quoting you but this is not directed at you...
I cant see why so many have these incredibaly assumptions that our "new talent" from the '08 draft is,
1: an immediate walk up start to our line up
2: any better than the other 15 teams "new talent" to come into the side.

Of the guys we know about Begley, Dawson and Ray, the jury is still out whether they will play. Certainly Ray is looking better than the other two, but once dempster comes back it will be hard for Begley, who has shocking disposal.

I think a few are still warmed by the glow of the '07 draft. We picked up bargain ready made quality players. In '08 the club has gone through a rebuilding draft, and i'm not convinced the side will be tipped upside down, because any wholesale changes will just open up gaps at the other end of the ground. We just dont have the luxury of say a Wojinski and Hawkins waiting in the sidelines.

Having said all that....NDS to a half forward flank in 09

No probs, and fair points too. I did refer to 'new talent' as half a dig, as I am amazed how some posts in this thread seem to totally dismiss the new guys as complete duds, as if we'd pick up the left overs from both drafts.

It is too early to make a call on some of these guys, but there are plenty amongst them I'm sure other clubs would have loved too. What they do provide is an opportunity to re-jig our starting line-up to free up guys like BJ, Gram, Fisher (whom I still believe will be a hard man to extract from the back line), etc. who were previously forced into defensive roles. We saw how Dempster's improvement during the latter half of the year allowed RL to unleash these guys and it totally changed the look of the side.

We won't have Dempster for a while, but who knows, Dawson, Begley or Ray might just do the trick? No-one can say for sure this early, but I think there is more depth in the side, plus more scope for experimentation in '09 then there was last year given the players St Kilda drafted. Will it work out? We've got a stack of great talent and a bunch of undiscovered players...anyone's guess really.