2009 Team Shaping Up

[PJ]

And you never know what type of 'off-field activities' may rear their ugly heads and derail some clubs' seasons.

Richmond perhaps??

Couldn't resist.

[Solar]

Recruiting this year gives you a good idea of where RL wants us be headed.

Begley and Ray to defence and Sam F & BJ to play major roles in the midfield. I accept the argument that you don't fix what isn't broken regarding Sam F but his reputation is built on his ability to carry the ball from half back through the middle and hit up forwards - less on his negating skills (we can find others to do that). He has real confidence now and there is no reason I can think of why he can't cut it with Bally and lenny.

Gram is an outside runner and will always be useful on the wing and half forward but I just can't see him having a major impact from clearances.

Steven is untried yes but has all the hallmarks of a young L Ball and could be a prodigious pack ferret (fingers crossed Armo can help out here too).

L Fisher could help out massively at centre clearances if he can block for our ball carriers and do what bakes does in terms of his physical presence. We need more intimidation/grunt at the clearances.

some really good points

things that need to be looked at during the pre-season

fish beings played as a pure midfielder to play the powell role. Block, work for that hard ball and perhaps working with ball and steven (one resting in a forward pocket).

I like the idea of chips to be tried at CHF just for the pre-season and release roo to a wing. as TTT said, we need to spice things up to make the next step and the captain onto the ball could be that difference. Begley, ray and an improving raph can cover chips down back.

xavier to perhaps go back to a half back flank position which was where he showed his best form. Just needs to get km's and fitness under his belt. Can his body stand up?

gram needs to learn to spot up a player and this will allow confidence in his line running. joey needs to step up and I would want BJ to become our number 1 midfielder by years end.

Blake will be there somewhere after his best season to date. Will always get a game unless we have an injury free year, flexible players who can fill many a hole will always be needed.

The two question marks are of course over goose and barrel. Will they ever get back to what they were.... this year is make or break. They need to show that they might.

[Richter]

And you never know what type of 'off-field activities' may rear their ugly heads and derail some clubs' seasons.

Richmond perhaps??

Couldn't resist.

Maybe even a club(s) that finished above us may get some of its players in strife? BC not the only player involved in dodgy off-field issues over the last 18 months. You never quite know what sort of circumstances may pan out......

[jays]

thats for sure

[saintsRrising]

Why this fixation to play Roo on a wing???

Where are the games played where he has "gathered" a lot of ball "midfielder like" as opposed to winning it on a lead?

Why put our main marking target on a wing? Would it not make us a less direct team?

IMO Roo should be left asa key forward. Sure let him use his great tank to roam....but the forward line should be his home base.

[Solar]

Why this fixation to play Roo on a wing???

Where are the games played where he has "gathered" a lot of ball "midfielder like" as opposed to winning it on a lead?

Why put our main marking target on a wing? Would it not make us a less direct team?

IMO Roo should be left asa key forward. Sure let him use his great tank to roam....but the forward line should be his home base.

played some very good games when allowed to roam from hf to hb. Almost played as a CHB during some games. This is just something to try in the practce matches so we don't get obsessed with "look for roo" when going forward and open up some new options. Otherwise it will the same structure that saw us not get within 60 points of either geelong or the hawks.

[bigcarl]

Why this fixation to play Roo on a wing???

Where are the games played where he has "gathered" a lot of ball "midfielder like" as opposed to winning it on a lead?

Why put our main marking target on a wing? Would it not make us a less direct team?

IMO Roo should be left asa key forward. Sure let him use his great tank to roam....but the forward line should be his home base.

played some very good games when allowed to roam from hf to hb. Almost played as a CHB during some games. This is just something to try in the practce matches so we don't get obsessed with "look for roo" when going forward and open up some new options. Otherwise it will the same structure that saw us not get within 60 points of either geelong or the hawks.

you're both right, sRr that he is our main (sometimes only) forward marking target and solar that he can play fantastic, match-winning football elsewhere.

my big concern is that if we move him from the forward line it leaves us without a goal-kicking key forward altogether. to my mind we need TWO gun goal-kicking key forwards ... NOT NONE.

so i say leave him in the forward line and move heaven and earth to find another kpf on the existing list who can hopefully contribute 50 plus for the season.

if we don't, i just can't see us kicking enough goals to trouble free-scoring and attacking sides like hawthorn.

roo is a wonderful player, but to expect him to be franklin and roughhead (190 goals between them in 2008) rolled into one is asking an awful lot.

[saintsRrising]

Otherwise it will the same structure that saw us not get within 60 points of either geelong or the hawks.

100% agree that we need to improve.

But we got pumped by both the Cats and Hawks not due to Roo.....but due to our midfield getting creamed.

And IMO putting Roo into the midfield would not materially alter that....but would make us greatly weaker when we do go forward.

In 2009 what we need is not to turn Roo into a mid......but to have ALL our mids pull their weight.

Now this may not happen...but for success we need some or all of:
*Ball to play like he can
*Gram to complete his metamorphasis into a mid
*Joey to play like he did in 2007
*Armo to improve
*Steven to start to emerge
*X to at last play good footy week in week out...
*etc

Just moving Roo around the ground will not plug holes...but wil rather be like that game where you slide squares aroun. No matter where you slide it...there will still bea hole.

What we need is for our underperfoming players tp perform.

To wina flag we need a better 22....and not just Roo on a wing.

We need more players playing excellent footy.

[PJ]

I wouldn't even mind Raph being given the role of CHB. I think he is ready to take responsibility - big life changes can bring about maturity in individuals.

There's a lot to like about how he began to emerge last year.

X - well we all know how capable he is - fingers crossed he deserves a break. Wouldn't mind seeing him on the wing or even half back,

[WayneJudson42]

I agree that it has to be an "all round" improvement. If you have the right players playing THEIR role, then a kick-it-to-Roo plan will work better than it has... quick ball movement.

You don't take one of the Leagues premier fwds and move him to simply try something different.

If you have a plan and structure in place... and you execute 100% of the time, it will work. Hawks, Cats and Doggies are no less predictable than us. The difference is that they are more disciplined to execute that "predictability" than we have been.

One thing that had me gobsmacked against the Cats is that wherever they were, they'd kick it... knowing that a team mate would be committed to run to the ball. It's that discipline that gives them their confidence.

So if we can improve in this area, we'll come very close.

On GF day, you saw the Cats discipline unravell due to Hawks pressure. The rest is history.

Think of a team as a race engine...

If the spark timing is out, then it doesn't perform as it should.

Wanna win a flag? Get every single player to execute their role every week.

What you'll find with teams like Cats, Hawks and even the Swans is that any player who steps in knows exactly what's required.... and hence they don't miss a beat.

When an outside mid knows where to run... the inside mid can clear the ball because he knows his other team mate will use his body to make space... the FWD cam read this play and run to position and 7 to 8 out of 10 times, it will work.

It's also no coincedence that Whitnall had his best year when Hamill was at his side... and went downhill afterhe left.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

But we got pumped by both the Cats and Hawks not due to Roo.....but due to our midfield getting creamed.

And IMO putting Roo into the midfield would not materially alter that....but would make us greatly weaker when we do go forward.

In 2009 what we need is not to turn Roo into a mid......but to have ALL our mids pull their weight.

Apologies for cherry-picking your post sRr, especially since taken out of context it may seem I'm disagreeing, but I'm in 100% agreement with the post the above is from.

The idea of Reiwoldt to the wing needs to be put to bed. It's not only questionable tactics, but plays right into the oppositions hands both offensively and defensively.

Reiwold was handy on several occasions in the backline - for his ability to mark the ball, and because it exacerbates one of the biggest issues with shutting down Roo - matchups. Do you let the backs go up forward, and then have to run all the way back with him? Reiwoldt is one of the best endurance athletes around, rotating matchups on him is hard enough when he's leading out of the forward line into the midfield and wing.

Put him on the wing however, and his opponents can be unnacountable, let Roo hurt you one way while he's outside scoring range, and run off him - Reiwoldt is good at nearly everything... except tackling.

Reiwoldt can't play the role required of a mid or winger without making some siognificant improvements to the defensive side of his game. However he can play CHF and occasionally CHB without changing a thing and be one of the leagues best.

As the above says - the solution to our midfield issues is not to have Reiwoldt take on another taks - it's to have those who already perform the task step up.

Interesting stat - any game the Saints broke even or won the clearances in 2008, they won.

[Richter]

But we got pumped by both the Cats and Hawks not due to Roo.....but due to our midfield getting creamed.

........

In 2009 what we need is not to turn Roo into a mid......but to have ALL our mids pull their weight.

sRs I agree that it is in the midfield that we must improve. But IMO you have missed the one single thing that will make us into a credible threat next year.

That thing is the graduation of Brendon Goddard from an excellent quarterbacking half back into an A grade (maybe even A+) midfielder.

Look at the tape of the prelim vs the Hawks in the 3rd Q for a mouthwatering taste of what we may be in for next year. Clearance from the ball-up in the middle gets to the hands of BJ who snaps a pinpoint 40 yard pass to Roo on the lead.

We are missing footskills in the midfield. NDS has been virtually a lone hand for a while now. It was he who masterminded the 3rd Q turnaround against the Hawks in Rd 16. This is why he needs help - i.e. BJ.

Here's what our attacking midfield focus for 2009 must be.......

Plan A

The likes of Ball and Hayes winning the ball in the midfield and dishing it up to NDS and BJ to make pinpoint passes to Roo/Kosi on the lead. Two of the best midfield ballwinners in the AFL giving the ball to 2 of the most skilled passers, delivering to the best mark on a lead in the last 5 years (Roo). IMO this is virtually unstoppable football and must be the blueprint of how we win next year.

Plan B

Running game i.e. Joey, Gram, Ray breaking the lines at pace. This is essentially the game plan that won WCE their flag - however we do not have the quality runners to use it as our no.1 game plan..... also we have Roo who is the game's number 1 leading mark at CHF. So this is an alternative route to goal rather than the number 1 method.

[To the top]

There is a need to improve accoss the ground to bridge the gap to the sides who made us look decidely average in 2008.

That includes forwards, mid-fielders (and there in no Harvey), defence and in the ruck.

I am of the view that Riewoldt covers a glaring weakness being that there is no alternate forward at the level to influence the result of a game (see the Hawthorn game when we beat Hawthorn at Docklands due to Riewoldt's dominance but could not repeat that performance in a final where Guerra sat back and got 30 uncontested possesions all then directed with Riewoldt forced to non-dangerous positions, hence we were out-classed by a side we had out-classed in the minor round) - and this is also because of Riewoldt being the focus when we go forward.

We have to diversify to improve, take the absolute pressure off Riewoldt and cause other sides to match up on others in the knowledge that those others have to be matched up on because they will be used and they will be dangerous. We can not afford for sides to do what Guerra did to us in the preliminary final - we HAVE to make every opposition defender accountable for a player we WILL use as an option - and not focus so much on seeking out Riewoldt.

So we need to put pressure on others not to wander around in Riewoldt's shadow.

Riewoldt's presence is an omni-presence. And therein lies a problem for St Kilda.

IF we give him licence to play as a virtual on-baller we know he has the skills and we know he has the "engine" - and we know he has the desperate endeavour and commitment.

To improve we need others to stand up, we need flexibility and we do NOT need a very unhealthy reliance on one player (noting Hawthorn have 2 such players and share the focus - and then some others jump in).

IF the ball is going into our attacking region whoever is playing there will get opportunities - and the more options we have to use those opportunities the better.

This WAS realised in the lead up to the finals in 2008, and the reason Allen was included but then, unfortunately, was injured early against Collingwood. In the few minutues before injury he was leading hard up the ground as an option, taking someone with him and creating space. He was forcing his opponent to go with him, not just zone off to double team Riewoldt.


In terms of the defence in 2008, it evolved to a spread of 190cm plus players and I would expect the 2009 defence to evolve similarly. Quick 190cm plus players.

This spread means no one player can be isolated and tested overhead in a region of the ground where a grab is a shot on goal.

The rucks need King AND Gardiner - and McEvoy developing even out of the square.

The mid-field needs players to accept what is required of them, and we have a spread of "names" which have been well canvassed including Goddard, the Clarke brothers and developers like Gram, who is dangerous on goal from distance - this is vital also.

[St Fidelius]

and developers like Gram, who is dangerous on goal from distance - this is vital also.

I am not too sure about being dangerous on goal, but, it's a pity that's all he can do...

He needs to look at other options as well as having a 'ping' and he needs to develop his foot passing to leading forwards

[S.A Saint]

IMHO i think that next season truly rests on kosi's shoulders....We need him to stand up in the forward line and kick at least 50 goals next year...if he could stand up it would allow Roo to play virtually anywhere in the forward line or on the wing pushing forward were he can be his damaging best....

Kosi really needs to step up and either take up a chf of ff position his own which will take the pressure off Roo and allow him more freedom to do what he does best...if Kosi does fire and so does roo then all our other guys in the forward line will have much easier jobs...

take a look at the hawks fanklin and roughhead get all the heat while players like Williams and rioli are aloud to run rampant as the opposition is more focused on the other two...

[Pilgram]

R. Pocket: S. Milne
L. Pocket: A. Schneider

[WayneJudson42]

Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about...

Fiora has been delisted. All problems solved.

[plugger66]

I am not sure how we will line up next year but 2 things are certain at least for the start of the season. Rooy will not play on the wing and will be in the forward line and Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

[PJ]

Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

Pretty sure RL has been touting the move to the mids since late last year.

& yes he is good at the rebound game but we need to change up a little to create a mid set up that can give us more next year.

With the mighty saints I wouldn't be quoting anything as certain. Certainty is there will be football next year and you can quote me on that.

[bigcarl]

Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

Pretty sure RL has been touting the move to the mids since late last year.

& yes he is good at the rebound game but we need to change up a little to create a mid set up that can give us more next year.

With the mighty saints I wouldn't be quoting anything as certain. Certainty is there will be football next year and you can quote me on that.

when i heard s. fisher was training with the forwards recently i thought, hmmm ... interesting.
http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

[Solar]

Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

Pretty sure RL has been touting the move to the mids since late last year.

& yes he is good at the rebound game but we need to change up a little to create a mid set up that can give us more next year.

With the mighty saints I wouldn't be quoting anything as certain. Certainty is there will be football next year and you can quote me on that.

when i heard fish was training with the forwards recently i thought, hmmm ... interesting.
http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

fish or chips...???

have a feeling it was chips while fish will be pushing for a midfield spot....

anyway lets just say it all comes down to BJ playing full forward

[bigcarl]

Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

Pretty sure RL has been touting the move to the mids since late last year.

& yes he is good at the rebound game but we need to change up a little to create a mid set up that can give us more next year.

With the mighty saints I wouldn't be quoting anything as certain. Certainty is there will be football next year and you can quote me on that.

when i heard fish was training with the forwards recently i thought, hmmm ... interesting.
http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

fish or chips...???

have a feeling it was chips while fish will be pushing for a midfield spot....

anyway lets just say it all comes down to BJ playing full forward

st mart said sam fisher.

[Solar]

Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

Pretty sure RL has been touting the move to the mids since late last year.

& yes he is good at the rebound game but we need to change up a little to create a mid set up that can give us more next year.

With the mighty saints I wouldn't be quoting anything as certain. Certainty is there will be football next year and you can quote me on that.

when i heard fish was training with the forwards recently i thought, hmmm ... interesting.
http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

fish or chips...???

have a feeling it was chips while fish will be pushing for a midfield spot....

anyway lets just say it all comes down to BJ playing full forward

i read it as sam fisher, but perhaps i got it wrong. which one is chips and which one is fish, anyway?

we got fish first.... was drafted as a slowish midfielder who won a bit of his own ball and showed leadership potential. At this time I'm pretty sure sam (chips) was playing golf. (or had just given it up for football). Thus him being nicknamed chips whilst our first fisher being fish....

ok it's been a long week!

[bigcarl]

Chips will not play foward or in the middle but will continue to be one of the best rebounding defenders in the AFL.

Pretty sure RL has been touting the move to the mids since late last year.

& yes he is good at the rebound game but we need to change up a little to create a mid set up that can give us more next year.

With the mighty saints I wouldn't be quoting anything as certain. Certainty is there will be football next year and you can quote me on that.

when i heard fish was training with the forwards recently i thought, hmmm ... interesting.
http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

fish or chips...???

have a feeling it was chips while fish will be pushing for a midfield spot....

anyway lets just say it all comes down to BJ playing full forward

i read it as sam fisher, but perhaps i got it wrong. which one is chips and which one is fish, anyway?

we got fish first.... was drafted as a slowish midfielder who won a bit of his own ball and showed leadership potential. At this time I'm pretty sure sam (chips) was playing golf. (or had just given it up for football). Thus him being nicknamed chips whilst our first fisher being fish....

ok it's been a long week!

marto definitely said s. fisher (chips).

[CaptainRiewoldt]

KOSITCHKE HAS TO GO DOWN BACK AND TAKE THE TALLEST FORWARD!!!

He has no confidence for goal kicking and leading. He is a great spoiler why hasnt this happened?? Um he beat J.Brown last time he played CHB!!



SAMMY FISHER great kick for goal fet him up forward.

Bakes MAX Begley
R.Clarke KOSI Dal Santo (1/4 Back)
Gram Hayes Goddard
Schnieder Reiwoldt Eddy
Milne S.Fisher X.Clarke

King Montagna Ball

Blake (3 way rucking with KOSI, KING) Jones Armitage Ray or Geary

I feel thats the best team. can we get em on the Park??