The Richmond Situation Vs. Ours

[evertonfc]

The majority of supporters? why not do a snap poll on here. as for the majority... are you privvy to info we're not?

Out of 30,000 members, you're stating that at least 15,001 disagree with the club??

More baseless opinions stated to suit your argument. This is where it becomes annoying.

Geez, you're quite the angry ant.

From my observations, there's a handful of fans on this forum - such as yourself and a few others - who are anti-recruiting Cousins.

Every Sainter I've spoken to in person and the majority on here - you surely couldn't disagree with that - were pro-recruiting him when we had the chance.

If you honestly disagree with that...well...I'm not sure what to say. But you're extremely emotional about the whole thing, so I'm content to have my view and leave it at that.

[saintspremiers]

This thread is very close to being locked

Any further personal comments will result in a warning

WJ42, your name calling and general baiting in this thread do your normal high standard of posting a disservice

sorry mum.. but the guy is a serial pest.

no, he's a d!ckhead.

He's moved on from BigMart because BM has sensibly refrained from getting involved, and has turned his stupidity on to you now.

[WayneJudson42]

The majority of supporters? why not do a snap poll on here. as for the majority... are you privvy to info we're not?

Out of 30,000 members, you're stating that at least 15,001 disagree with the club??

More baseless opinions stated to suit your argument. This is where it becomes annoying.

Geez, you're quite the angry ant.

From my observations, there's a handful of fans on this forum - such as yourself and a few others - who are anti-recruiting Cousins.

Every Sainter I've spoken to in person and the majority on here - you surely couldn't disagree with that - were pro-recruiting him when we had the chance.

If you honestly disagree with that...well...I'm not sure what to say. But you're extremely emotional about the whole thing, so I'm content to have my view and leave it at that.

I'm not angry at all. And you are incorrect about my view. Go back and re read my views. I was more than happy to get him if he was 100% clean. I've stated that numerous times.

What annoys me is that so much vitrioll has been spewed at the club... based on assumptions... and not based on facts.

What I do not agree with is with the hysteria being generated becaused we did not get him. Yes, I would have loved him, but it's not the end of the world IMO.

I really can't state it any clearer than that.

so far... no one has come up with the real reason why we didn't pick him. I am yet to see concrete evidence that the majority of supporters are dissapointed.

Add to that the accusation that because I accept the club's decision (not their stated reason), then I am a blind follower of the board.

Then we get all the hype about membeship numbers.

Let's get some perspective, please. And more importntly, let's show a bit more faith in the current Admin and even more importsntly... the playing group.

all this BC lovefest does is give the impression that the "majority" reckon our list is shyte and incapable of succeeding without him.
I believe the opposite.

The history of this club's "recative" and irrational decision making in the past has consgned us to a history of massive underachievement relative to the talent we've had.

Finally, we see a thorough decisions being made. From a football perspective, it appears to be the wrong one. But again, we do not know the facts.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Quixote]

[Con Gorozidis]

Can someone summarise this post in under 1,000 words please, so I don't have to read 14 pages of utter crappola?

Ta!

goes like this:

some guys wanted cousins. some didnt. in the end he went to the tigers. end.

[WayneJudson42]

Don't participate Guru.

[degruch]

Can someone summarise this post in under 1,000 words please, so I don't have to read 14 pages of utter crappola?

Ta!

goes like this:

some guys wanted cousins. some didnt. in the end he went to the tigers. end.

What about (a) some guys wanted BC, (b) some didn't, (c) some didn't care that we passed him up, (d) some do.

I vote (a) and (c) - happy to get him, but now that we haven't, I don't care. Becuase that's my opinion, I can emphatically say, that is how the majority of our supporters feel.

[Quixote]

Don't participate Guru.

Don't plan to fella!

[evertonfc]

all this BC lovefest does is give the impression that the "majority" reckon our list is shyte and incapable of succeeding without him.
I believe the opposite.

I understand what you're saying, but I have repeatedly stated that while Ben Cousins himself would greatly assist our chances of winning a premiership in the next two or so years, he alone cannot win us a premiership alone.

And yes, you're right on that impression - having witnessed the gap first-hand between ourselves and Hawthorn/Geelong in the finals series, added to the fact that we fell into the top four courtesy of some ridiculous results elsewhere, shows we are not premiership material right now.

The improvement may come from our kids/injured stocks, but we've been saying that since 2005.

We might make top four again, that wouldn't surprise, but perhaps where we disagree the most is that you're genuinely excited with our list and the youngsters coming through.

I, and a lot of others, are not so sure. We feel Cousins would have improved the team - and the club - in so many different and varied ways, largely as a result of knock-on affects, as stated in previous posts.

Ultimately, I hope you are right and I am wrong. I also hope the club knows what it is doing.

Let us pray that we do not fall one elite midfielder short of a premiership strike in 2009/10.

[Con Gorozidis]

Im surprised he did not go to the tasmanian hawks. i mean they love cousins down there


BOOM TISH

[BAM! (shhhh)]

We'll know in 9 months whether we have shot ourselves in the foot or not here.... but the Board should be held to account if it turns out we have, and not hide behind weasel statements like "at the time we determined that Ben did not fit into our plans going forward or with the youth policy we have put in place blah blah blah, we are delighted that Ben has managed to get his health and life back on track, as we always maintained it was blah blah blah, we also take this opportunity congratulate Ben on winning this years blah blah blah...."

It was worth a roll of the dice, if he'd stuffed up once he would have been gawn in a heartbeat.... if we finish forth behind daylight, the dorks and girlong again next year it will really suck.

I really hope we have made the right call.

But the board didnt think it was worth a roll of the dice. Its not a case of right or wrong call. Its just one of many decisions that need to be made. None of the actual parties involved seems upset by StKilda not drafiting Ben, only a few supporters on this forum.

And I personally think most Saints supporters view is they wish Ben well and they are looking forward to another year of watching their team play footy. I think Richmond are welcome to the Media circus.

Most of the angriest fans I know aren't ones on this forum - those of us here have an appropriate place to vent!

And it's very much a right or wrong call - it's just not proven yet and as with any decisions, there are and will be consequences, be they small or large. I'd go as far as to say it's the 2nd biggest decision the current board's made (biggest one being Frankston) and the one with most immediate consequence (not measurable at this point until we see how BC fares during the H&A).

I won't presume to speak (or even resemble) a majority view, I'd suspect that what we're seeing on here is a reaction to the fact that here's a decision we can actually quantify - the efforts to reduce injuries have been "death by 1000 cuts" types (though at this time of year, a thread debating the ideal kind of training studs would have a few takers I'd bet!), most draftees are long term propositions, especially at pick 82. Ben Cousins could be a big impact in 2009, and it's that impact that's fuelling the interest. Here's a chance to actually say "they're right" or "they were wrong".

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I honestly believe what happened was your classic case of "group think".

It is well known that humans behave this way in groups. Once someone had publically made a decision (Collingwood) - everyone went along with the public thought process out of fear that any deviation from the group would be embarrasing - i.e noone wants to look like an idiot in public - better to go with the group even it is wrong because then hey - at least you were all wrong together which is not so bad. Now even if cuz does well the other 15 clubs willl feel good about themselves - safe in the knowledge they all behaved together (wrongly).

So once a few herd leaders spoke (Eddie) - the rest of the herd fell in to line. Classic group think. Plenty of studies in the 60's and 70's on this kind of thing.

While entirely speculative, I entirely agree. I think we may actually be an exception to this rather than the rule (while I disagree with our decision, we certainly put a lot of process into making it), and while had I been a bug on the wall, I'd probably have disagreed with almost any rationale that led to a "no" on BC, I'm sure rationale there was (as opposed to say, the Lions, who didn't spend enough time or effort and I suspect said no based on Collingwood and St Kilda rather than Cousins himself).

I find it absolutely mind boggling that a player of BC's caliber got as far as the PSD. The old chestnut about anything free having no value and group think.

[WayneJudson42]

I honestly believe what happened was your classic case of "group think".

It is well known that humans behave this way in groups. Once someone had publically made a decision (Collingwood) - everyone went along with the public thought process out of fear that any deviation from the group would be embarrasing - i.e noone wants to look like an idiot in public - better to go with the group even it is wrong because then hey - at least you were all wrong together which is not so bad. Now even if cuz does well the other 15 clubs willl feel good about themselves - safe in the knowledge they all behaved together (wrongly).

So once a few herd leaders spoke (Eddie) - the rest of the herd fell in to line. Classic group think. Plenty of studies in the 60's and 70's on this kind of thing.

While entirely speculative, I entirely agree. I think we may actually be an exception to this rather than the rule (while I disagree with our decision, we certainly put a lot of process into making it), and while had I been a bug on the wall, I'd probably have disagreed with almost any rationale that led to a "no" on BC, I'm sure rationale there was (as opposed to say, the Lions, who didn't spend enough time or effort and I suspect said no based on Collingwood and St Kilda rather than Cousins himself).

I find it absolutely mind boggling that a player of BC's caliber got as far as the PSD. The old chestnut about anything free having no value and group think.

The theory certainly holds with our supporters. BC was a cheating druggie who deserved to rot in hell... until we showed interest. Then all of a sudden, he was a victim who deserves a 2nd chance... and our next Messiah.

[bob__71]

I honestly believe what happened was your classic case of "group think".

It is well known that humans behave this way in groups. Once someone had publically made a decision (Collingwood) - everyone went along with the public thought process out of fear that any deviation from the group would be embarrasing - i.e noone wants to look like an idiot in public - better to go with the group even it is wrong because then hey - at least you were all wrong together which is not so bad. Now even if cuz does well the other 15 clubs willl feel good about themselves - safe in the knowledge they all behaved together (wrongly).

So once a few herd leaders spoke (Eddie) - the rest of the herd fell in to line. Classic group think. Plenty of studies in the 60's and 70's on this kind of thing.

While entirely speculative, I entirely agree. I think we may actually be an exception to this rather than the rule (while I disagree with our decision, we certainly put a lot of process into making it), and while had I been a bug on the wall, I'd probably have disagreed with almost any rationale that led to a "no" on BC, I'm sure rationale there was (as opposed to say, the Lions, who didn't spend enough time or effort and I suspect said no based on Collingwood and St Kilda rather than Cousins himself).

I find it absolutely mind boggling that a player of BC's caliber got as far as the PSD. The old chestnut about anything free having no value and group think.

The theory certainly holds with our supporters. BC was a cheating druggie who deserved to rot in hell... until we showed interest. Then all of a sudden, he was a victim who deserves a 2nd chance... and our next Messiah.

of course, because now Rob has left, and because kosi isnt the equal of plugger. Will be interesting how the Saints cope without a messiah. At least we still have scape goats.

[saintbrat]

Every Sainter I've spoken to in person and the majority on here - you surely couldn't disagree with that - were pro-recruiting him when we had the chance.

.

be careful with sweeping statements like this because many / most that I spoke to were NOT in favour of recruiting him
yes a " vocal' majority on here may have- those that repeated this ad nauseum----------- But to say a majority of Saints members or supporters wanted him is not correct-- what about the other 2, 300 on here who did not voice an opinion one way or another....

one poll that did run on a local paper had it 51 against and 49 for to take him....But again that is a limited group polled- those that felt the need or had access to internet.

[WayneJudson42]

Every Sainter I've spoken to in person and the majority on here - you surely couldn't disagree with that - were pro-recruiting him when we had the chance.

.

be careful with sweeping statements like this because many / most that I spoke to were NOT in favour of recruiting him
yes a " vocal' majority on here may have- those that repeated this ad nauseum----------- But to say a majority of Saints members or supporters wanted him is not correct-- what about the other 2, 300 on here who did not voice an opinion one way or another....

one poll that did run on a local paper had it 51 against and 49 for to take him....But again that is a limited group polled- those that felt the need or had access to internet.

Thank you!

[St DAC]

What about (a) some guys wanted BC, (b) some didn't, (c) some didn't care that we passed him up, (d) some do.

I vote (a) and (c) - happy to get him, but now that we haven't, I don't care. Becuase that's my opinion, I can emphatically say, that is how the majority of our supporters feel.

What he said.

[evertonfc]

one poll that did run on a local paper had it 51 against and 49 for to take him....But again that is a limited group polled- those that felt the need or had access to internet.

I'd probably side with the Realfooty (a decent, reputable football website run by The Age) poll to be fair.

WORTH A PUNT : Should an AFL club take a gamble on Ben Cousins?
Yes - 71%
No - 29%
Total Votes: 789 Poll date: 18/11/08

Now of course, that's only a small slice of the population. But it gives you an indication of the support out there for Cousins.

I'd imagine those would be fairly similar figures for Saints fans.

Probably only three-in-ten - and they're a very vocal 3-in-10 - wouldn't take him.

[St Fidelius]

one poll that did run on a local paper had it 51 against and 49 for to take him....But again that is a limited group polled- those that felt the need or had access to internet.

I'd probably side with the Realfooty (a decent, reputable football website run by The Age) poll to be fair.

WORTH A PUNT : Should an AFL club take a gamble on Ben Cousins?
Yes - 71%
No - 29%
Total Votes: 789 Poll date: 18/11/08

Now of course, that's only a small slice of the population. But it gives you an indication of the support out there for Cousins.

I'd imagine those would be fairly similar figures for Saints fans.

Probably only three-in-ten - and they're a very vocal 3-in-10 - wouldn't take him.

Yes, but was that poll conducted before Cousins turned up and couldn't provide a hair sample

Just a thought

[saintbrat]

one poll that did run on a local paper had it 51 against and 49 for to take him....But again that is a limited group polled- those that felt the need or had access to internet.

I'd probably side with the Realfooty (a decent, reputable football website run by The Age) poll to be fair.

WORTH A PUNT : Should an AFL club take a gamble on Ben Cousins?
Yes - 71%
No - 29%
Total Votes: 789 Poll date: 18/11/08

Now of course, that's only a small slice of the population. But it gives you an indication of the support out there for Cousins.

I'd imagine those would be fairly similar figures for Saints fans.

Probably only three-in-ten - and they're a very vocal 3-in-10 - wouldn't take him.

as you say evertonfc- as 'you' imagine'

where as I'd imagine it may actually be closer to the other way- 7 in ten did not want him........ but the VERY vocal pro Ben - were the 3/10
and how many of the 789 were other teams supporters. ?

[saintm]

Was listening to Rodney Eade being interviewed the other day and he also thought that Ben Cousins should be given another chance at AFL level or words to that effect - but, like 14 other clubs it was not going to be with his club!!

Perhaps the Real Footy survey would be more reflective if it had have asked "Would you like Ben Cousins to be given a chance by your AFL Club?".

There are a lot of ideas which are fine and just in the world until they make their way into your own backyard and then, as 15 Clubs decided, the gloss and goodwill seems to fade a little.

[saint66au]

Heres another poll id lvoe to see:

"If your club looked into Ben Cousins then decided not to draft him, would you scream blue murder, consider it a golden opportunity wasted and the chances of a flag and a decent membership tally significantly diminished?"

I reckon the majority would say "NO" but the vast majority of the "YES" votes would bang on about it on SEN and Fan Forums

[To the top]

A major issue with drafting Cousins is the management of him, because he is and will remain a subject totally by himself and regardless of which ever team he plays for.

We have seen that already, and Richmond FC have given oxygen to the circus instead of issuing a written statement saying that Cousins has been employed to play AFL football and inviting the media scrum to watch from over the fence - leaving only his performance on the field to comment on.

No doubt, instead of being asked how pre-season is going, the Richmond players are being asked exclusively about Cousins, including for non football related reasons.

So there is the ability to distract.

Then again Richmond do not have a major sponsor (in very, very tough times) - and, again, is the recruiting of Cousins a plus or a minus?

The jury is out.

I would not have minded him at St Kilda, but the management of his presence was absolutely vital.

I just think that Richmond have handled it very, very poorly.

Obviously Richmond will trust that the media have had their day with Cousins and moved on - but we all know that this is not the way the media work.

The old saying that no publicity is bad publicity does not hold these days and therein lies the problem.

[my les foote]

I'd probably side with the Realfooty (a decent, reputable football website run by The Age) poll to be fair.

WORTH A PUNT : Should an AFL club take a gamble on Ben Cousins?
Yes - 71%
No - 29%
Total Votes: 789 Poll date: 18/11/08

.

What a ridiculous use of statistics.

Should AN AFL club take a gamble on Ben Cousins is very different to "Should YOUR AFL club take a gamble on Ben Cousins"

It's like comparing:
Should Australia take in more Afghan refugees?

with

Have you got room for a couple at your place?

[my les foote]

And while we are using crappy statistics.

Less than 1% of registered Saintsational posters have expressed disappointment in the decision not to draft Ben Cousins