Saints reward Lyon

[PJ]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

[rodgerfox]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

If we could have gotten top 10 picks for them, anyone on our list bar the following should have been put on the table at some stage since Lyon took over...

Roo.
Raph.
Gram.
Ball.
Lenny.
Dal.
Baker.
Sam Fisher.
Joey.
BJ.

[The Saintsational Man]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

If we could have gotten top 10 picks for them, anyone on our list bar the following should have been put on the table at some stage since Lyon took over...

Roo.
Raph.
Gram.
Ball.
Lenny.
Dal.
Baker.
Sam Fisher.
Joey.
BJ.

So we should've put Harvey up for a trade?

[rodgerfox]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

If we could have gotten top 10 picks for them, anyone on our list bar the following should have been put on the table at some stage since Lyon took over...

Roo.
Raph.
Gram.
Ball.
Lenny.
Dal.
Baker.
Sam Fisher.
Joey.
BJ.

So we should've put Harvey up for a trade?

Why not?

If you get a top 10 for a 34yo, you'd be insane not to take it.

[WayneJudson42]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

If we could have gotten top 10 picks for them, anyone on our list bar the following should have been put on the table at some stage since Lyon took over...

Roo.
Raph.
Gram.
Ball.
Lenny.
Dal.
Baker.
Sam Fisher.
Joey.
BJ.

Agree in theory. But as in any market... for a successful sale, you need a buyer... and I dare say that out commodities weren't exactly "blue chip".

[PJ]

Could be considered a tough call to hang on to players that some would

call expendable. So much media hype around this draft I'm a little

skeptical about its worth.

I guess the only proof will be if Lyon gets them up in 09.

[The Saintsational Man]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

If we could have gotten top 10 picks for them, anyone on our list bar the following should have been put on the table at some stage since Lyon took over...

Roo.
Raph.
Gram.
Ball.
Lenny.
Dal.
Baker.
Sam Fisher.
Joey.
BJ.

So we should've put Harvey up for a trade?

Why not?

If you get a top 10 for a 34yo, you'd be insane not to take it.

Yeah maybe.....but the fact that you'd end up in face down in Port Phillip Bay only a few days after would be a deterrent.

[evertonfc]

i got nothing against RL, but i think this is a bit premature...

Far too premature.

He had another year to run on his contract.

So far he's bombed in 2007 and had a pass mark for 2008 - remember we were ninth heading into round 21 and a freak set of results allowed us to make top four, where we were systematically destroyed by two vastly superior teams.

Not enough culling of poor young players when more aggressive drafting was required.

I don't think that's worthy of an extension.

[WayneJudson42]

Surely, you'd have to take into consideration where you believe the list is at. Trading for a top 10 pick is no guarantee that you'll be better off IMO.

If you are in a total rebuild phase, then ok, anything goes. But if you believe that you're a chance in the coming few years, then you have to be a bit more pragmatic because it takes a few years for players to develop. so this years recruits probably make an impact until 2010+.

I believe we are in the latter, so any big trade should only have been for an establishe player which will add immediate value next year... such as Ray.

Just because we didn't put everyone up for trade, it doesn't mean that RL doesn't have the balls to do it.. it probably has more to do with timing.

Let's see how many "1st" 22 players don't make the cut this year.

EFC... 2007 was his 1st year, and was plaugued with major injuries... and we just missed the finals in a transitional year. 2008, we made the finals.

Not sure how people judge what makes a good coach. Is it purely games won? The xtra year = stability and less distractions.

Just imagine if we start 1-4??? The knives would be well and truly out.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

i got nothing against RL, but i think this is a bit premature...

Far too premature.

He had another year to run on his contract.

So far he's bombed in 2007 and had a pass mark for 2008 - remember we were ninth heading into round 21 and a freak set of results allowed us to make top four, where we were systematically destroyed by two vastly superior teams.

Not enough culling of poor young players when more aggressive drafting was required.

I don't think that's worthy of an extension.

no its not far to premature

2007 was always going to be an up and down year...if one cannot have foreseen that well...need i go on

under gt we could never beat the flood, never ever and when teams employed it we struggled to combat it big time...ross is meant to fix this in just the one pre-season???

i don't think so

you cannot possibly say he bombed in 07...due to our lack of defensive pressure...under gt we were all-out attack and whilst it gave both our supporters and neutral followers hard-on's...it was never going to win the big one as we couldnt play slower tempo football when the situation was needed...imo he is fixing this and the list becomes a more rounded group capable of playing many different ways again when situation suggests

the second haf of 08 was very promising with a few good moves made that automatically made us a better football side

king, schnieder and dempster came in a proved they are good/top quality players and will make a significant impact in both short and long terms

[PJ]

The knives would be well and truly out.

Would that be the steak knives we got with Charlie??

Agree completely though.

Wait and see - I don't think what we did in the second half of 08 was freaky at all. Just hard work by the boys.

[rodgerfox]

So far he's bombed in 2007 and had a pass mark for 2008 - remember we were ninth heading into round 21 and a freak set of results allowed us to make top four, where we were systematically destroyed by two vastly superior teams.

I posted something along these lines after the H&A season. Not surprisingly, the ignorant fools attempted to shoot it down - mainly due to who posted it, rather than what was posted though I'd suggest.

I was concerned the 'top 4' finish that everyone was gloating about, would be treated with greater emphasis than it warranted.

As you said, we fell in. Not only into the top 4 - but pretty much into the 8.

My concern at the time, is that that would be forgotten amongst the the hype of a 'top 4 finish'. I feared it would effect our list management, and coaching decisions.


We need a long term coach. The club simply does. Whether Lyon is the right one or not, I'm not sure. However, we're in a possie thanks to our previous admin that leaves us no option but to persevere.

[WayneJudson42]

Not enough culling of poor young players when more aggressive drafting was required.

This comment perplexes me somewhat. There are only a certain number of draft picks available for starters. He has now had 2 full drafts to work with.

And at what point do you write of young players? Who should we have cut? Armo, Steven, Geary? McEvoy?

So we if they don't become an instant Judd, we automatically cull them?

Imagine if the Hawks tok that approach with Hodge for example.

[evertonfc]

And at what point do you write of young players? Who should we have cut? Armo, Steven, Geary? McEvoy?

Players who should have under strong consideration for the cut:

Connors - simply cannot see him putting on enough weight and improving to the point of becoming a league player in 2009. Now, if you say that around here, you get plenty of types throwing up their hand at how evil you are for not giving him a chance. Well, I'm sorry to say, but that's my opinion. He's gone without regular football for a long time and was a highly speculative pick - which is ok late in the draft - when taken. Has only spent a year on the list, but sometimes that's long enough to get a handle on whether they'll make it. We sometimes get over-protective of speculative youngsters.

Gwilt - has had his chance IMO and has simply failed to grasp it. He will never find the intensity required to play the game. He does one or two good things per match and people think he's going to put it together, but that seldom happens.

L Fisher - seems to be having a big dip in the off-season but I can't see him cracking the senior 22 reguarly when we're already over-stocked with running half-backs.

Howard - just not up to it. If we're desperate, delist him and send him to the VFL. If he cuts it up, give him another go. But we appear certain to rookie him.

McQualter - can't seem to make his mark on any game, and while he's shown a little as a tagger, he seems to lack the aggressive/hard-nut side a tagger needs.

R Clarke - did enough in the final few weeks to earn his spot for 2009.

C Jones - has improved and deserved to keep his spot - just - but his deplorable skills continually let the team down. Needs to work on this relentlessly over summer to keep his spot.

That's a lot of players who have questions marks lingering over them who we didn't act on. And that doesn't include a player like Armitage or Allen, both of whom also have considerable question marks about their ability to make it as senior footballers (I think Armo will, Allen's a 50/50).

I'm not asking for 44 superstars - but you must make every spot on the list count. I can't emphasise that enough. Every spot should be treated like gold.

For example, I would have kept Birss over L Fisher because he's a quality depth player. I'd also rather have had Ferguson than Gwilt, because at least Ferguson found his position - something Gwilt hasn't done since being drafted in November 2004. I'd have snapped up Cousins over anyone above to boost our midfield.

So we if they don't become an instant Judd, we automatically cull them?

Imagine if the Hawks tok that approach with Hodge for example.

Bull**** statement. Nobody is expecting an instant Judd - and you know that. Likewise, Hodge showed a great deal in his first few seasons.

[WayneJudson42]

It was actualy a question... not a statement. And there's quite a few on here who are already judging McEvoy... amd why we didn't get Rioli etc.

My point is that everyone you cut has to be replaced... potentially with someone better.

What you are claiming is based on your analysis of certain players, and therefore, purely subjective.

As I stated in an earlier post, it depends on where you believe the list is at. Unless you are looking at tanking and rebuilding, A cautious appraoch is warranted IMO.

I don't think we are any different to other teams in the sense that we have players who will never make the cut... it's the nature of the beast.

Even if we had cut all of the players you mentioned... there simply aren't enough draft picks to replace them. If you traded for draft picks, that's different.

But once you get above the top 60 picks, you really need to question if the players selected will be any better than the ones you have.

You will find that a few "walk up starts" will struggle to get a game next year. As players develop, they earn their spot and the weaker players get squeezed out of the team.

If you want, please tell mewho you'd replace the above players with and why.

[PJ]

Sorry I don't buy the "we fell in" line being put around. We either were

4th or we weren't it's black and white.

By that argument we didn't deserve to win a flag either as "we feel in" by one point.

Our club's faults are evident....we just work on it.

Does Lyon deserve an extension....probably

Take a look at Geelong and Hawthorn's coach employment track record

before they won flags.

Makes interesting reading.

[joffaboy]

I was concerned the 'top 4' finish that everyone was gloating about, would be treated with greater emphasis than it warranted.

As you said, we fell in. Not only into the top 4 - but pretty much into the 8.

My concern at the time, is that that would be forgotten amongst the the hype of a 'top 4 finish'. I feared it would effect our list management, and coaching decisions.

I think anyone who saw our three finals matches know exactly where we are or were in '08.

Way off the pace for No1 Geelong, way too good for Number 5 Collingwood and way off the pace against No.2 Hawthorn.

We didn't play the Bulldogs but they had our measure during the H&A pretty convincingly.

We were a top four team this season in name only. We were a long way short of the top three but a bit better than 5 to 8.

Really it was for all to see if one cared to look.

We need a long term coach. The club simply does. Whether Lyon is the right one or not, I'm not sure. However, we're in a possie thanks to our previous admin that leaves us no option but to persevere.

I am not sure about the last part of youre sentance. If Lyon was no good surely it is the boards responsibility to get rid of him. They obviously see it different to some here who think that Lyon is not the best coach for the club (who is, is a moot point and hypothetical anyway).

[evertonfc]

If you want, please tell mewho you'd replace the above players with and why.

Happily. Remember, I said they were under consideration, not all should be chopped.

As a few months back, I'd have moved on Connors, Howard, Gwilt and L Fisher. One of that quartet MAY kick on, but I doubt it.

I'd have kept Ferguson and Birss because the former showed something I'd never seen in him, and the latter stepped up as a reliable depth player. I'd have taken Cousins as well. That leaves one spot. Could we have snapped up a bargain at trade week? For certain.

I'd have done a bit of that shedding at the end of 2007, I might add, meaning a stronger hand at that draft. We only took three kids (McEvoy, Steven and Connors) and should have taken at least five.

Plus we should have accepted any deal for L Fisher to join Sydney when it was on the table 14 months ago. I never understood why we didn't.

I wouldn't have minded having a stronger dip at the trade table this year. Trading for players is not an issue if you can grab bargains - and that's one thing Ross Lyon is good at. Our list recieved a massive boost by virtue of our efforts in October 2007.

Before I get knifed, can I add that Leigh Fisher sounds like he's having a mighty pre-season this year. That's great to hear. I hope he can crack our 22 because he can play some decent footy. He's in the 'tough call' category, but I'd have rathered Birss have his spot on the list.

[skeptic]

Connors - simply cannot see him putting on enough weight and improving to the point of becoming a league player in 2009. Now, if you say that around here, you get plenty of types throwing up their hand at how evil you are for not giving him a chance. Well, I'm sorry to say, but that's my opinion. He's gone without regular football for a long time and was a highly speculative pick - which is ok late in the draft - when taken. Has only spent a year on the list, but sometimes that's long enough to get a handle on whether they'll make it. We sometimes get over-protective of speculative youngsters.

Agree. Would rather have kept Birss. If he's not at least ready to play senior footy at the end of this season, he should be cut; rookie'd if he has potential

Gwilt - has had his chance IMO and has simply failed to grasp it. He will never find the intensity required to play the game. He does one or two good things per match and people think he's going to put it together, but that seldom happens.

Agree however, with Fergo and Charlie cut Gwilt gets an extra chance as a depth player. Did we cut the right guys??? I guess that remains to be seen

L Fisher - seems to be having a big dip in the off-season but I can't see him cracking the senior 22 reguarly when we're already over-stocked with running half-backs.

I get the impression that his attitude saved him + he's our most established depth player. IMO RL wants him to make it and has put the challenge to him. We'll wait and see

Howard - just not up to it. If we're desperate, delist him and send him to the VFL. If he cuts it up, give him another go. But we appear certain to rookie him.

Has potential to play on small fast forwards. This is an area we are not strong in... should be rookied

McQualter - can't seem to make his mark on any game, and while he's shown a little as a tagger, he seems to lack the aggressive/hard-nut side a tagger needs.

He's improving. Like to give him at least another year

C Jones - has improved and deserved to keep his spot - just - but his deplorable skills continually let the team down. Needs to work on this relentlessly over summer to keep his spot.

I'm not a fan personally; don't think he should have kept his spot and expect him to be cut

[Teflon]

Im wrapt the club has made a statement that we dont make too often - stability. Its no coincidence that stability also saw Hawthorn/Geelong coaching ranks through similar criticisms.....from all reports Clarkson was just keeping the chair warm for Matthews.....not now.

Is it warranted?

We finished 4th.
The guys been handed a list that requires a rebuild WHILST not letting supporters down who demand top 4...its a tough gig for a new coach and one Lyon has impressed me with. Hes already turned over 19 players...the "hindsight" experts on about shedding in 07 make me chuckle....

If we are to employ that logic.....one HAS to go back and ask...what the hell were we doing in 05/06 at the trade/draft tables....playing blackjack?...or russian roullete..

We will be ok.

[Richter]

I'm still very surprised and quite disappointed that he hasn't made any real tough calls on our list.

Why disappointed? What calls would you have made?

If we could have gotten top 10 picks for them, anyone on our list bar the following should have been put on the table at some stage since Lyon took over...

Roo.
Raph.
Gram.
Ball.
Lenny.
Dal.
Baker.
Sam Fisher.
Joey.
BJ.

LOL! Gold RF.

You've just named the only players on our list who might command top ten picks. And even within that I doubt that Raph or Baker would. Even Joey or Luke Ball would only be worth around 10ish IMO.

Total fantasy land to suggest that any of the rest of our list might be worth even a first rounder.......

Dempster, Schneider and King were all first 22 players when they came to us.... and we picked them up with picks far outside the top 10. Just who do you think in our list (outside your named players) would get anywhere close to a top ten?

[Otiman]

I'm sorry, i'm going to have to hand in my membership, this is not the St. Kilda football club anymore.

Sack the Coach!
Sack the Board!
Sack the Players!

Which basket case club can I support now?

[PJ]

You've just named the only players on our list who might command top ten picks.

So getting a top ten pick ensures you of success does it .

Too many people think getting high draft picks is a sure fire ssuccess plan and that cutting the so called deadwood is going to bring success. Keep dreaming the fantasy is never over till you wake up.

Total fantasy land to suggest that any of the rest of our list might be worth even a first rounder.......

Again with the one line answers. Top draft picks ... that's the answer

Dempster, Schneider and King were all first 22 players when they came to us....

I think Dempster and Schneider were either in the Sydney seconds or in and out of the firsts. Ross showed the faith and gave them a second chance.

Yep gold Richter right on the money.

Team means team = balance. This won't happen with a bunch of supposed superstars. Ross knows who to keep and for what reasons not the einsteins waiting for the hard calls.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Bit surprised that now was the time chosen to hand out an extension ... same reason as others, in 2 years, we've had half a season of really good footy, but that half was the most recent, culimnating in a prelim, even if far off the eventual premier (is it worthy of note that in the last 5 years, the Saints have been bumped from finals by the eventual premiers 3 times in preliminary finals? I know who 15 other clubs will want to plqay in the '09 prelim...). Not knowing the $$$ on the contract, it could have been a very astute move, renegotiating at round 12 if we're going in 8-3 could be far more expensive.

Otherwise, I've no problem with it. Given the decision to walk away from the Howard contract, if we're 3-8 at the break, one extra year doesn't hamstring our ability to make an immediate change, it does give us 1-2 years to decide whether we've got a middling coach or a great one (at this stage I'm willing to take it as proven that Lyon's capable).

[Saints94]

Like I said Westaway wants him at the club for another 10 years