2009 Team Shaping Up

[Teflon]

You are joking about leg speed, arent you?
Surely you are joking?
You have to be able to outsprint your oponent to get the loose ball.
You have to be able to break away with a burst of speed from a pack.
You have to be able to outsprint your opponent in a marking lead.
You have to be able to chase down your opponent when they have the ball.
You have to be able to close quickly in a marking contest to outspoil the attempt.

Geelong don't have much leg speed at all.

Ever seen Gary Ablett Jnr run?
Ever seen Wojinski rotating through as a mid run?
James Kelly?

Geelong are not slow.....to suggest so is basic stupidity.

[WayneJudson42]

You are joking about leg speed, arent you?
Surely you are joking?
You have to be able to outsprint your oponent to get the loose ball.
You have to be able to break away with a burst of speed from a pack.
You have to be able to outsprint your opponent in a marking lead.
You have to be able to chase down your opponent when they have the ball.
You have to be able to close quickly in a marking contest to outspoil the attempt.

Geelong don't have much leg speed at all.

Neither do Hawthorn. Infact both midfields could even be described as slow.

It's overrated. Good to have, but not absolutely neccessary.

Geelong are quite clever in that they run in numbers and create pressure from those numbers.

Can't recall which of the 2 GF teams do it, but they go to ground immediately if a tackle is imminent. Very clever.

... and you need legspeed if you want to play the type of game we are playing.

[SaintBot]

Round 1 Matchups

St Kilda Vs Sydney

FB - FF: (Sam Fisher - Patrick Veszpremi) - (Max Hudghton - Michael O'Loughlin) - (Steven Baker - Jarred Moore)
HB - HF: (Sam Gilbert - Ryan O'Keefe) - (Matt Maguire - Barry Hall) - (Farren Ray - Amon Buchanan)
C - C: (Jason Gram - Nick Malceski) - (Lenny Hayes - Brett Kirk) - (Leigh Montagna - Jarrad McVeigh)
HF - HB: (Nick Dal Santo - Tadhg Kennelly) - (Nick Riewoldt - Craig Bolton) - (Tom Lynch - Ted Richards)
FF - FB: (Stephen Milne - Paul Bevan) - (Justin Koschitzke - Leo Barry) - (Adam Schneider - Martin Mattner)
R - R: (Steven King - Darren Jolly) - (Brendon Goddard - Adam Goodes) - (Luke Ball - Jude Bolton)
I/C - I/C: (Colm Begley - Rhyce Shaw) - (Raphael Clarke - Lewis Roberts-Thomson) - (Xavier Clarke - Kieran Jack) - (David Armitage - Craig Bird)

[saintspremiers]

Round 1 Matchups

St Kilda Vs Sydney

FB - FF: (Sam Fisher - Patrick Veszpremi) - (Max Hudghton - Michael O'Loughlin) - (Steven Baker - Jarred Moore)
HB - HF: (Sam Gilbert - Ryan O'Keefe) - (Matt Maguire - Barry Hall) - (Farren Ray - Amon Buchanan)
C - C: (Jason Gram - Nick Malceski) - (Lenny Hayes - Brett Kirk) - (Leigh Montagna - Jarrad McVeigh)
HF - HB: (Nick Dal Santo - Tadhg Kennelly) - (Nick Riewoldt - Craig Bolton) - (Tom Lynch - Ted Richards)
FF - FB: (Stephen Milne - Paul Bevan) - (Justin Koschitzke - Leo Barry) - (Adam Schneider - Martin Mattner)
R - R: (Steven King - Darren Jolly) - (Brendon Goddard - Adam Goodes) - (Luke Ball - Jude Bolton)
I/C - I/C: (Colm Begley - Rhyce Shaw) - (Raphael Clarke - Lewis Roberts-Thomson) - (Xavier Clarke - Kieran Jack) - (David Armitage - Craig Bird)

wow!

Goose & Baker back - interesting if it happens as early as Round 1, or if they need some form time in the magoos.

As for Lynch, just because he was our Round 1 pick doesn't mean he's a Round 1 selection IMO.

[kalsaint]

don't know why people persist in naming kosi at ff in their best line-up.

ross has been on record as saying he and kosi agree that his best role is ruck/forward.

unless ross has dramatically changed his view within a couple of months, kosi is likely to play in a forward pocket some of the time and on the ball the rest.

we need to look elsewhere to find someone to fill this very important position.

imo it's no coincidence that hawthorn, with two gun key forwards who kicked 190 between them for the season, were premiers.

we have roo, we need another good leading/marking target to challenge, i think.

And a midfield that could compare.

Lets face the "ideal team" shown previously is probably not as good as the team that fronted up to Hawthorn in the semi final this year. That is the team that lost by 60 points due to midfield obliteration.

I dont see any improvement in this list given our key loss (Harvey) other than Ball's addition. Goose no longer rates in my book until he makes it again at this level and does this for more than 6 consecutive games.

Only saying it as I see it. I am not kidding myself about 2009 chances and I can only hope that I am proved wrong. I will hang my head in shame if that occurs.

[kalsaint]

People are always trying to find ways to drop Jones. That's nothing new. I thought we were past dropping Blake though. He's our CHB until somebody takes the job away from him. Even then, he's a valuable utility. Maguire has to prove he can play four quarters of footy again before he even thinks about playing CHB again. I doubt he plays on Hall or O'Loughlin first up.

Begley only gets a run straight away if there's injuries. Baker would be in before Begley if healthy, as would Dempster. Lynch would have to really impress to get a game straight off. They liked Steven enough to name him as an emergency in the finals last year. He'd be closer than any of the new guys. But once again, this is a tough lineup to crack.

FB: S. Fisher - Hudghton - R. Clarke
HB: Ray - Blake - Gilbert
C: Gram - Hayes - Dal Santo
HF: Montagna - Riewoldt - Jones
FF: Schneider - Koschitzke - Milne
OB: King - Goddard - Ball

IC: Armitage - Baker - X. Clarke - Maguire

Eddy, Gwilt or Mini might get a go if Bakes or Goose aren't ready to go. They might go with Gardiner in round one against Sydney as a spare ruck against a grind-it-out stoppage side. Who knows - they may even give Leigh Fisher another crack at Goodes.

Agree with most of this but with small variances.
Backs: M McGuire, M Hudgeton, X. Clarke,
H Backs: S. Gilbert, J. Blake, S. Fisher
M Field: L. Montagna, L. Hayes, J Gram
H Forward: N DalSanto, N. Riewoldt, A. Schneider,
Forwards: S. Milne, J. Koschitzke, R. Clarke
Ruck: S. King, B. Goddard, L Ball
Inter: M. Gardiner, S. Baker, F Ray, C. Jones,
Emergency: D. Armitage, J. Stevens, L. Fisher, R. Eddy.

Assuming Dempster is out for most of 09.
Not sure Goose is right to play a full season at this level yet. Ditto for Bakes at this moment but if he returns to form could be another midfielder.
Blake will need some help at CHB. Proved his value to me over 2008.
Suspect L. Fisher might get a recall 2009 due to good fitness and ability to run with a quality opposition runner.
Kosi, mmmm needs to be involved more in forward plays. Clarke to be a leading forward (decoy or otherwise designated forward) to assist here.
R. Clarke is better forward than at back. Just like Roo, he does better when he doesn’t have the time to think about decisions for too long. Can lead or deliver to forwards well.
Armo and Eddy could become dangerous allies to Milne if Milney chooses to look up sometimes (did this well later 08).
Still don’t believe in McQualter at this stage.

[jays]

cant wait for next year got a good feeling

[Longwayfromhome]

Can't go into next season with the same old. Time for something new. We were ten goals behind both Geelong and Hawthorn.
We need a full forward. It isn't Kosi. Allen is out for the season, so let's give some one a go and leave him there. Goddard, McEvoy, Gilbert or Cahil.

B Hudgton Dawson Clarke R.
HB Fisher L. Fisher S. Gram
C Joey Ball Jones
HF Roo Goddard Dal Santo
F Milne Cahil Gilbert

R Kosi Hayes Armitage

Int. Blake Ray McEvoy Eddy

If Goose and Baker are fit then we'll find room. King is too old and slow and surely doesn't fit into the long term plan. X. Clarke has a lot to prove, as does m. Gardiner. More goals from mid field. Dal, Joey, Jones, Lenny.
Kosi for the brownlow as a ruckman.
Go Saints

[sunsaint]

cant wait for next year got a good feeling

that's just the egg nog speaking Jays!
But in the chrsitmas spirit, go Saints

[saintsRrising]

Well we need pre-season to have happened yet......some of our fringe will push up, but unfortunately in 2009 this would seem destined to e as more depth players than as players in our Top 10.

However Baker and Maguire both still have dark clouds hanging over them.

With Bakes it is just not his fitness either...but renewed AFL focus against taggers. If he plays I suspect it will be as a BP.

If we want to be a genuine premiership threatBall is the No 1 player we need to step up beyond the development trajectory of those we saw in 2008......we need an extra gun in the midfield . Of that I am in no doubt. Look around at the other main contenders, and those emerging and you see deep midfields oozing in talent. Our is looking somewhat ordinary I am afraid unless Ball can re-emerge.

Dal, Hayes is simply just not enough class.....against the best teams. Too many of our mids are second rungers such as Joey.

After Ball....we need at least one of Armo, Steven to step up a level to bea true young emerging classing mid.
Yes there are other such as Geary...but it would seem more likely in 2009 that they can takea step into becoming flankers rather than as true AFL level mids.


Down back and up forward we can do ok. Yes we do need a true medium HF...but if we had a truly GOOD midfield we could do ok without such a player. Down back Blake can be used to fill wholes.....and with Begley and Zac there is now some extra depth to fill wholes if Baker and Maguire do not impact as hoped, and also while we wait for Dempster to recover.


So midfield is where we need to step up.

Apart from Ball and the younguns the next player we need to "arrive" is Gram as a true running and damaging midfielder.

BJ will have a fantastic 2009 IMO , but I believe that this will be mainly down back setting up play, but with some midfield rotations yes.

Joey needs to play at his best, for his best is quite good. Not elite, but damaging yes. Joey playing at his best frees up Dal too.

X has under-achieved for a variety of reasons including injury. 2009 we need him to emerge to be consistent player with a bit of zing, but with a much improved workrate. 2008 he had distractions that we all know about. 2009 is time for him to deliver consistently what we have all seen at times from him.


Kosi. While many yearn for him to be a star it is time for most St Kilda fans to adjust their expectations of him.

The role for Kosi is to be a big solid forward option who will contest...take some marks and kick some goals, but who apart from occassional blinders (or more likely quarters) will not in himself be a match winner.

However Kosi playing solid workmanlike games up forward will achieve two things:

*bring our small such as Schneider and Milne into the game, as well as the rotating mids..

*minimise how much opposition forwards can double or triple team Roo, who is our true star forward. Kosi needs to work hard enough to be an option for when Roo gets too much attention...making the opposition have to mind him and not just Roo.

Raph and Gilbert very late in the year started to really shine after both were somewhat ordinary during theyear. Both at their best havea dash of magic about them...and IF they can continue on with in 2009 it will go along way to providing some extra spark and talent for us to threaten the Cats and Hawks. In part for their own play...but also because good form from these two down back will mean that Sam Fisher, Gram and Goodard can all be released to be more attacking players.



2009 CAN be a very good year for us....but yes description of POTENTIAL dogs far too many of players. It is there...but can players step up?

One factor that gives me hope is that the two last Premiership Teams both started their Premiership Years as teams with potential, who needed to imprive.....and did.

So can the Saints??

[bigcarl]

don't know why people persist in naming kosi at ff in their best line-up.

ross has been on record as saying he and kosi agree that his best role is ruck/forward.

unless ross has dramatically changed his view within a couple of months, kosi is likely to play in a forward pocket some of the time and on the ball the rest.

we need to look elsewhere to find someone to fill this very important position.

imo it's no coincidence that hawthorn, with two gun key forwards who kicked 190 between them for the season, were premiers.

we have roo, we need another good leading/marking target to challenge, i think.

And a midfield that could compare.

that's right, we need both.

one thing that makes hawthorn's midfield look very, very good is the potency of their forward line.

having buddy and roughhead up front along with williams encourages them to move it in there quickly, directly and long to a contest if necessary.

let's face it. they'd have rocks in their heads if they didn't with that sort of firepower available.

they're not overly concerned with "defensive pressure" or about it rebounding out. they want to kick winning scores.

this is where we must improve.

i agree with the posters who want to see players like bj, fisher, gram and dal santo in more attacking positions ... positions where they can really hurt the opposition, including the forward line.

we have capable replacements like xavier, raphael, ray, begley, leigh fisher and baker and maguire (if fit) who can defend capably and give us some run out of the backline.

[plugger66]

don't know why people persist in naming kosi at ff in their best line-up.

ross has been on record as saying he and kosi agree that his best role is ruck/forward.

unless ross has dramatically changed his view within a couple of months, kosi is likely to play in a forward pocket some of the time and on the ball the rest.

we need to look elsewhere to find someone to fill this very important position.

imo it's no coincidence that hawthorn, with two gun key forwards who kicked 190 between them for the season, were premiers.

we have roo, we need another good leading/marking target to challenge, i think.

And a midfield that could compare.

that's right, we need both.

one thing that makes hawthorn's midfield look very, very good is the potency of their forward line.

having buddy and roughhead up front along with williams encourages them to move it in there quickly, directly and long to a contest if necessary.

let's face it. they'd have rocks in their heads if they didn't with that sort of firepower available.

they're not overly concerned with "defensive pressure" or about it rebounding out. they want to kick winning scores.

this is where we must improve.

i agree with the posters who want to see players like bj, fisher, gram and dal santo in more attacking positions ... positions where they can really hurt the opposition, including the forward line.

we have capable replacements like xavier, raphael, ray, begley, leigh fisher and baker and maguire (if fit) who can defend capably and give us some run out of the backline.

Hawthorns forwards are natural forwards. They werent sent there hoping they may be able to play there. Sam Fisher is an AA backman and we want to try him up forward. That I dont understand. BJ has potential to be a very good on baller and has shown nothing to suggest he would be a good forward. Play guys in positions that suit them. You want 4 players who have great skills as onballers or backman and you want them forward to be replaced by injured guys, seconds players and rejected players. Whilst we are on Hawthorn didnt they send their second best player to the backline because they realised how important the position was.

[bigcarl]

don't know why people persist in naming kosi at ff in their best line-up.

ross has been on record as saying he and kosi agree that his best role is ruck/forward.

unless ross has dramatically changed his view within a couple of months, kosi is likely to play in a forward pocket some of the time and on the ball the rest.

we need to look elsewhere to find someone to fill this very important position.

imo it's no coincidence that hawthorn, with two gun key forwards who kicked 190 between them for the season, were premiers.

we have roo, we need another good leading/marking target to challenge, i think.

And a midfield that could compare.

that's right, we need both.

one thing that makes hawthorn's midfield look very, very good is the potency of their forward line.

having buddy and roughhead up front along with williams encourages them to move it in there quickly, directly and long to a contest if necessary.

let's face it. they'd have rocks in their heads if they didn't with that sort of firepower available.

they're not overly concerned with "defensive pressure" or about it rebounding out. they want to kick winning scores.

this is where we must improve.

i agree with the posters who want to see players like bj, fisher, gram and dal santo in more attacking positions ... positions where they can really hurt the opposition, including the forward line.

we have capable replacements like xavier, raphael, ray, begley, leigh fisher and baker and maguire (if fit) who can defend capably and give us some run out of the backline.

Hawthorns forwards are natural forwards. They werent sent there hoping they may be able to play there. Sam Fisher is an AA backman and we want to try him up forward. That I dont understand. BJ has potential to be a very good on baller and has shown nothing to suggest he would be a good forward. Play guys in positions that suit them. You want 4 players who have great skills as onballers or backman and you want them forward to be replaced by injured guys, seconds players and rejected players. Whilst we are on Hawthorn didnt they send their second best player to the backline because they realised how important the position was.

i'm not suggesting they all be played forward at all. I said more attacking positions ... positions where they can really hurt the opposition, including the forward line.

so that would include on-ball roles, wing, half forward or full forward.

apart from the significant (and very limiting) lack of a second key forward to complement riewoldt and a goalkicking lead-up type, our forward line has some talent.

just questioning why some of our best players should be used exclusively in negative and defensive roles while we continue to struggle to kick winning scores.

[the_D_train]

i was fiddling around with another team again and this one just made my mind click.

this would be the team that i would like to see for most of next year....

B: S Gilbert - M Hudghton – S Baker

HB: J Gram - M Maguire - S Fisher

C: N DalSanto - L Hayes - L Montagna

HF: N Heyne - N Riewoldt - A Schneider

F: S Milne - J Koschitzke * - T Lynch

Foll: S King* - B Goddard - L Ball

Inter: D Armitage - R Clarke – F Ray – B McEvoy*

Emerg: J Steven – C Begley – C Jones

I know Baker and Maguire are uncertainties, as with the younger guys, but I would love for them to play well agian. If not I could see Begley or Jones replacing Baker and Blake or even Dawson (if promoted) replacing maguire.

I Would like Lynch, Heyne and McEvoy in the team becuase..

Lynch- could play that third tall while Kosi and McEvoy share the ruck forward position and he along with McEvoy provides another marking option instead of just roo. also looks to have good forward defensive pressure.

Heyne- could be that dangerous, strong marking, goal kicking and pacy half forward that we need to ignite our forward line (apparently almsot or as fast as Sam Blease). he also looks pretty "ready made".

McEvoy- looks a lot bigger this year, i could see him swapping with Kosi in the ruck forward position is strong marking and looks like a good kick for goal. again he is another marking option.

[Go Sainters Go]

D Train, how could you not include Blake in your side? And on what basis could you name Heyne and Tom Lynch in the best 18.

[WayneJudson42]

We have some real what if's that can make a major change...

1- X fit and playing on a wing

2- Goose? Not sure where he'll play, and I expect him to take while to find his form.

3- Ball will be an interesting one if he can improve on 2008.

Now, everyone talks about mids... 1 factor overlooked is that unless you have natural stamina, it takes a few years to work it up to a level where you can play consistantly.

So, I'd expect better years from:

Joey
Gram
BJ

I reckon with Goose, Blake and Begley, we've got the backline covered, and we can still use Raph as playmaker, along with Begs and Chips. Hopefully, Dempster to come back sooner rather than later.

The main concern IMO is up fwd. We have not covered the loss of Gtrain, and Kosi isn't the answer.

The new guys may not be ready, which leaves McEvoy, or even Dawson to replace Allen.

The other smokeys I have are MG... can he stay on the park? And also Goose's role. Could he fill a ruck rover role around the ground? Logic says no due to fitness.

Ideally, we'll have 1 or 2 who will improve like Geary and Armo.

Having a best 22 which includes CJ and Eddy are a real concern, unless CJ continues his development as he did in 2008. And herein lies the key...

How many players have room for improvement, and how many are playing at their peak, and what we've seen is as good as it will get?

My best? It's a tough call IMO...

Blake - Max - Gilbo

Chips - Goose - Dempster

BJ - Ball - Gram

X - Roo - Raph

Milne - ? - Schneids

Rucks: MG, Dal, Lenny

Int: Kosi? Joey, King? Armo?

As you can see, there's probably 4 or 5 players who you could include,so that's why I'm feeling ok with 2009. Been a while since we've had this predicament.

[To the top]

I reckon we have a fair way to go to challenge - and that is borne out by our Final's Series returns against both the Grand Finalists, Geelong and Hawthorn.

So, I would be looking at something different - because we need to lift to another dimention and I do not think the list can achieve that - the list is getting younger so the pressure is on and really on the playing group.

IF I were penciling in those I would like to see forming the "core" of the side it would look like this at this stage:-



xxxxxxx Hudgden Gilbert
Gram Maguire (on a hope and a prayer) S. Fisher
Riewoldt (nominal on a wing and the "X" factor to improve our accross the park performance and leadership) Goddard Hayes
X. Clarke, Koschitzke, R. Clarke
Steven (we NEED him or his equilivant) xxxxxxxx Ball
King DalSanto Montagna
Gardiner Armitage (ditto Steven) xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx

Who goes in for the xxxxxxxx's I can not identify, considering the positions (the interchange is to be back up 2 mid-fielders) and personnel skilled in those positions.

There will be a "jump" because certain names are left out, but those players have been around for years and have NOT got us there - and we remain well off the pace so change is required. It is time for the next generation, starting with Steven and Armitage standing up and producing.

We can not just wander along the same path, with the same names occupying the same positions because that has NOT got us within a bull's roar.

We have to start asking questions, now.

[the_D_train]

yes I know I dont have Blake in my side,Go Sainters Go, and yes I have Tom Lynch and Nick Heyne in my starting 18.

Blake..... i just have memories of his bad games. I did mention he would probably play for Maguire anyway.

its just the team that i would like to see and everyone has different opinions of who should play.

yes my best 22 involves Heyne, McEvoy and Lynch and no Blake but thats just who I would have. i am not saying its the right team some people might think its the worst team someone could possibly think of and some people might like it. i am one of those latter people

[BallBanger]

D Train, how could you not include Blake in your side? And on what basis could you name Heyne and Tom Lynch in the best 18.

On the basis that if we have too many of the calibre of L.Fisher, (Gilbert), Gwilt, Eddy, McQualter, (Geary) we won't be competing at the business end of the season....

[WayneJudson42]

Some interesting observations...

All of these expectations are based on outside variables remaining constant (am I sounding like an ex coach??).

I recall Nth and Port finishing high ladder and making prelims for a few times before they cracked a Granny. So to did Sydney.

Does everyone assume that Cats will stay the same, or the Hawks? 1 or 2 injuries can make all the difference.

You can debate the top 22, but to conclude that we are still too far away from Geelong and Hawks is purely subjective, and only time will tell.

[Longwayfromhome]

I know Blake is getting on, but I still think is is in our best 15. Can play down back at CHB or even FB. Can play through the mid field as a ruckman or tagging midfielder. (Remember he has given both Cousin's and Crawford the run a round in the past 18 months. No slouch when it comes to gut running).
I would also suggest he could play as a decoy to Roo up forward. Good hands, although kicking for goal may be suspect. ( but then again whose isn't).
I would pick him before Kosi and probably before Goose if were talking about round one.

[saintsRrising]

I know Blake is getting on, but I still think is is in our best 15. Can play down back at CHB or even FB. Can play through the mid field as a ruckman or tagging midfielder. (Remember he has given both Cousin's .

I agree that Blake is currently in our best team.

He has IMO improved over the last couple of seasons (ie decision making and spoling being but two facets of his game which are better) and he is more settled now that he plays in a role better suited to his talents.

However the last time he was on cousins...Cousins destroyed him and the Saints.

[PJ]

Recruiting this year gives you a good idea of where RL wants us be headed.

Begley and Ray to defence and Sam F & BJ to play major roles in the midfield. I accept the argument that you don't fix what isn't broken regarding Sam F but his reputation is built on his ability to carry the ball from half back through the middle and hit up forwards - less on his negating skills (we can find others to do that). He has real confidence now and there is no reason I can think of why he can't cut it with Bally and lenny.

Gram is an outside runner and will always be useful on the wing and half forward but I just can't see him having a major impact from clearances.

Steven is untried yes but has all the hallmarks of a young L Ball and could be a prodigious pack ferret (fingers crossed Armo can help out here too).

L Fisher could help out massively at centre clearances if he can block for our ball carriers and do what bakes does in terms of his physical presence. We need more intimidation/grunt at the clearances.

[WayneJudson42]

Recruiting this year gives you a good idea of where RL wants us be headed.

Begley and Ray to defence and Sam F & BJ to play major roles in the midfield. I accept the argument that you don't fix what isn't broken regarding Sam F but his reputation is built on his ability to carry the ball from half back through the middle and hit up forwards - less on his negating skills (we can find others to do that). He has real confidence now and there is no reason I can think of why he can't cut it with Bally and lenny.

Gram is an outside runner and will always be useful on the wing and half forward but I just can't see him having a major impact from clearances.

Steven is untried yes but has all the hallmarks of a young L Ball and could be a prodigious pack ferret (fingers crossed Armo can help out here too).

L Fisher could help out massively at centre clearances if he can block for our ball carriers and do what bakes does in terms of his physical presence. We need more intimidation/grunt at the clearances.

Good points. I forgot about Ray.

[Mr Magic]

Some interesting observations...

All of these expectations are based on outside variables remaining constant (am I sounding like an ex coach??).

I recall Nth and Port finishing high ladder and making prelims for a few times before they cracked a Granny. So to did Sydney.

Does everyone assume that Cats will stay the same, or the Hawks? 1 or 2 injuries can make all the difference.

You can debate the top 22, but to conclude that we are still too far away from Geelong and Hawks is purely subjective, and only time will tell.

And you never know what type of 'off-field activities' may rear their ugly heads and derail some clubs' seasons.