Pro-Kosi thread

[Ralphy]

even banger would have had that one bad year.

[crackers35]

even banger would have had that one bad year.

Nah. He's had a great year every year. Hasn't done a thing wrong

[st.byron]

I reckon everyone should leave Kosi alone unless they've got something nice to say about him.
Being an AFL footballer would be a very hard job.
Not everyone plays great every week, No player is perfect every week
He's had one bad year - almost every player in the AFL has had ONE bad year

Exhibit A as evidence that people still have Kosi on a pedestal.

[crackers35]

I reckon everyone should leave Kosi alone unless they've got something nice to say about him.
Being an AFL footballer would be a very hard job.
Not everyone plays great every week, No player is perfect every week
He's had one bad year - almost every player in the AFL has had ONE bad year

Exhibit A as evidence that people still have Kosi on a pedestal.

What's that supposed to mean?
I know he's had bad games but you've also got to look at some of the good things he's done

I like to see the good in people, not the bad

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[st.byron]

I reckon everyone should leave Kosi alone unless they've got something nice to say about him.
Being an AFL footballer would be a very hard job.
Not everyone plays great every week, No player is perfect every week
He's had one bad year - almost every player in the AFL has had ONE bad year

Exhibit A as evidence that people still have Kosi on a pedestal.

What's that supposed to mean?
I know he's had bad games but you've also got to look at some of the good things he's done

I like to see the good in people, not the bad

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

no nothing at all Crackers. But not at the exclusion of the negatives if they're there. We need a balanced debate re actual contribution, free of blind loyalty, personal adoration and emotive claptrap, either negative or positive.

[To the top]

The flaw in your argument, St Byron, is that your continuing attacks are only on certain players and not on others.

And you do not address the strengths of those particular players, only that they do not perform to your expectations that they are or should be "super stars" and should dominate games week in and week out.

Further, you pick on players with above average ability instead of acknowledging that accross our list we have a raft of average footballers and that the improvement must come from the constant turning of that average grouping looking to improve the depth of the list and therefore the pressure on every player on the list.

We have improved our rucking strength by recruiting firstly M. Gardiner and then King - this in turn giving McEvoy development time acknowledging that we are still deficient in numbers hence Rix on the list as insurance.

So we are positioning to replace Rix - who has been a good servant of the club and has excelled in getting the number of AFL games he has but is not the answer - merely a precaution.

And we really do not want precautions on our list because that is when your list becomes clogged and the strength of the list goes backwards.

We have a lot of players on our List with question marks over them for one reason or another before you get to Koschitzke.

[Animal Enclosure]

The flaw in your argument, St Byron, is that your continuing attacks are only on certain players and not on others.

And you do not address the strengths of those particular players, only that they do not perform to your expectations that they are or should be "super stars" and should dominate games week in and week out.

Further, you pick on players with above average ability instead of acknowledging that accross our list we have a raft of average footballers and that the improvement must come from the constant turning of that average grouping looking to improve the depth of the list and therefore the pressure on every player on the list.

We have improved our rucking strength by recruiting firstly M. Gardiner and then King - this in turn giving McEvoy development time acknowledging that we are still deficient in numbers hence Rix on the list as insurance.

So we are positioning to replace Rix - who has been a good servant of the club and has excelled in getting the number of AFL games he has but is not the answer - merely a precaution.

And we really do not want precautions on our list because that is when your list becomes clogged and the strength of the list goes backwards.

We have a lot of players on our List with question marks over them for one reason or another before you get to Koschitzke.

Kosi was one of the few who have any trade value though. That's why he was discussed as a trade option.

He's still a Saint now & we all hope he plays out of his skin next year. If he doesn't he'll be a year older & his value will have declined further.

[Bernard Shakey]

The flaw in your argument, St Byron, is that your continuing attacks are only on certain players and not on others.

And you do not address the strengths of those particular players, only that they do not perform to your expectations that they are or should be "super stars" and should dominate games week in and week out.

Further, you pick on players with above average ability instead of acknowledging that accross our list we have a raft of average footballers and that the improvement must come from the constant turning of that average grouping looking to improve the depth of the list and therefore the pressure on every player on the list.

We have improved our rucking strength by recruiting firstly M. Gardiner and then King - this in turn giving McEvoy development time acknowledging that we are still deficient in numbers hence Rix on the list as insurance.

So we are positioning to replace Rix - who has been a good servant of the club and has excelled in getting the number of AFL games he has but is not the answer - merely a precaution.

And we really do not want precautions on our list because that is when your list becomes clogged and the strength of the list goes backwards.

We have a lot of players on our List with question marks over them for one reason or another before you get to Koschitzke.

Kosi was one of the few who have any trade value though. That's why he was discussed as a trade option.

He's still a Saint now & we all hope he plays out of his skin next year. If he doesn't he'll be a year older & his value will have declined further.

Hear hear, Animal Enclosure, that is the whole point, trade value is point.

No reason trying to trade players that are probably going to be cut, as most on here wanted to do. It just doesn't happen.

We got Farren Ray. He wasn't going to be delisted by the Dogs, but he or they wanted to move on.

Go Sainters!

[SainterK]

As I have said before on so many Kosi threads....

RL was swift to send a couple of big named players to the seconds this year, he has the ability to take action with players who are not performing and/or are lazy. He had the opportunity to do so with Kosi, and for whatever reason/s he has chosen not to. Perhaps this is due to the fact he has played nearly all year, pushed through obvious injuries, improved on many of his statistics...

RL is prepared to show a little faith, so am I

[Bernard Shakey]

I reckon everyone should leave Kosi alone unless they've got something nice to say about him.
Being an AFL footballer would be a very hard job.
Not everyone plays great every week, No player is perfect every week
He's had one bad year - almost every player in the AFL has had ONE bad year

Stupid, stupid comment.

ONE bad year?

He has been a Saint for eight years and has had ONE good year.

[st.byron]

The flaw in your argument, St Byron, is that your continuing attacks are only on certain players and not on others.

And you do not address the strengths of those particular players, only that they do not perform to your expectations that they are or should be "super stars" and should dominate games week in and week out.

Further, you pick on players with above average ability instead of acknowledging that accross our list we have a raft of average footballers and that the improvement must come from the constant turning of that average grouping looking to improve the depth of the list and therefore the pressure on every player on the list.

We have improved our rucking strength by recruiting firstly M. Gardiner and then King - this in turn giving McEvoy development time acknowledging that we are still deficient in numbers hence Rix on the list as insurance.

So we are positioning to replace Rix - who has been a good servant of the club and has excelled in getting the number of AFL games he has but is not the answer - merely a precaution.

And we really do not want precautions on our list because that is when your list becomes clogged and the strength of the list goes backwards.

We have a lot of players on our List with question marks over them for one reason or another before you get to Koschitzke.

TTT, I don't see my comments as attacks on Kosi. I haven't called for him to be traded and I haven't called for him to be dropped. I have called for him to be more consistent and deliver regular solid contributions. I've yet to see anyone put up a sound argument that this is not a fair call.
I don't believe anyone, even the most ardent Kosi supporter, can argue that he has been a consistent solid contributor. I've seen plenty on here leaping to his defence, but the real evidence to support that defence is wishy washy.
If you want to characterise my comments on this issue as attacks, then they're really attacks on other posters and fans who simply refuse to evaluate Kosi on what he's delivered and continue to base their assessment of him on personal adoration, blind loyalty or what he did four years ago. All simply irrelevant in terms of his value to the StKFC.

[To the top]

Well St Byron, again in your post you ONLY mention Koschitzke.

And THAT is the point.

To those who say trade Koschitzke because he has currency and you may get someone decent for him, well you contradict your own argument and, fortunately, St Kilda FC is not on the same page as you are.

So who would you trade him for who has greater "value" in your eyes? Remember 197cm and 98kg also able to pinch hit as a ruckman. Perhaps Hawthorn may trade Franklin for him, so St Kilda come out the perceived "winner". Mind you Franklin was comprehensively thrashed in the PF. Or perhaps we may get a first round pick, but what are the guarantees there? May not scrub up or may do a knee in game 1. Who knows? Who have Geelong got of comparable stature? Mooney and Lonergan neither of whom had any impact in the GF. So would you take Mooney and give Geelong Koschitzke? I think not!

And in terms of the conclusions that his trade value will be less next year, given such insightful ability, could you tell me when the DJIA is going to bottom?

Plus, since when do we rate a players performance in terms of trade value?

To follow the line of reasoning of some, we should trade Riewoldt for Picks 1 & 2 in the National Draft because he has the best trade value and we should make the most of it whilst he still has it.

How exciting would that be?

And how stupid!

What say we debate how we actually CAN improve our List by introducing more fresh young talent, developing those players and ensuring that there is pressure on everyone in regards a spot in the AFL 22.

The Coach has said we will nab 6 kids - and it is pretty easy to identify at least 6 who are not really up to the job description.

Some will remain only because we only have 6 picks.

[saintly_safes]

Good post Bam!

As far as I'm concerned Kosi is on the list for 2009 and I look forward to the Saints having a more consistent year than 2008.

Another preseason under Ross and a clearer understanding of the game plan should make a big difference.

I hope Kosi makes me look stupid.

So do I

Good to see a positive spin on this site & i applaude you for having the balls to keep the faith & stick by the club & our players & i think it may have even softened some of his hardest critics .Keep up the good work & more importantly keep the faith "jk23" strength through loyalty is our motto & you are indeed loyal

[st.byron]

Well St Byron, again in your post you ONLY mention Koschitzke.

And THAT is the point.

To those who say trade Koschitzke because he has currency and you may get someone decent for him, well you contradict your own argument and, fortunately, St Kilda FC is not on the same page as you are.

So who would you trade him for who has greater "value" in your eyes? Remember 197cm and 98kg also able to pinch hit as a ruckman. Perhaps Hawthorn may trade Franklin for him, so St Kilda come out the perceived "winner". Mind you Franklin was comprehensively thrashed in the PF. Or perhaps we may get a first round pick, but what are the guarantees there? May not scrub up or may do a knee in game 1. Who knows? Who have Geelong got of comparable stature? Mooney and Lonergan neither of whom had any impact in the GF. So would you take Mooney and give Geelong Koschitzke? I think not!

And in terms of the conclusions that his trade value will be less next year, given such insightful ability, could you tell me when the DJIA is going to bottom?

Plus, since when do we rate a players performance in terms of trade value?

To follow the line of reasoning of some, we should trade Riewoldt for Picks 1 & 2 in the National Draft because he has the best trade value and we should make the most of it whilst he still has it.

How exciting would that be?

And how stupid!

What say we debate how we actually CAN improve our List by introducing more fresh young talent, developing those players and ensuring that there is pressure on everyone in regards a spot in the AFL 22.

The Coach has said we will nab 6 kids - and it is pretty easy to identify at least 6 who are not really up to the job description.

Some will remain only because we only have 6 picks.

TTT, I'll only address the first sentence of your above post as it's directed specifically at me. All of the stuff about trading Kosi is just hot air. It was never going to happen and in my view that was the right call.

Yes I only mention Kosi because this thread is about him. You fail to address or acknowledge any of the points I made about the way he is evaluated by a large number of posters and you fail to address my point that I'm yet to see any valid or reasonable argument to support the idea that he's not inconsistent, a serial under-performer and goes missing for weeks on end. Do you actually have anything to offer along these lines?
Please, somebody, give me a sound logical argument to the contrary with evidence to back it up. I'm yet to see one, because I suspect there isn't one beyond blind loyalty, personal adoration or "he'll be better next year." All of which we've been hearing for years on end. Hence the need for a 'Pro-Kosi thread' for Kosi acolytes who can continue to pump his tyres up regardless of how he's actually performed.
Good luck to the bloke if he turns the corner next year. I'll be thrilled too. But let's call a spade a spade as to where he's at now.

[st.byron]

Good to see a positive spin on this site & i applaude you for having the balls to keep the faith & stick by the club & our players & i think it may have even softened some of his hardest critics .Keep up the good work & more importantly keep the faith "jk23" strength through loyalty is our motto & you are indeed loyal

oh FFS what a crock. Reminiscent of the neo-con politico tactic of you're with us or you're against us. Just like those who claimed that being against the Iraq war, or supporting Muslim integration ,for example, made you un-Australian.
By the above, I'm not loyal. I don't swear blind uncritical loyalty to #23 so I'm not a loyal Saint. Supporting the Saints for forty years. Years of standing in the rain watching us get flogged. Whole family of Saints supporters and my old man played for the club. But I'm not loyal. Pfffft.

[saintly_safes]

Good to see a positive spin on this site & i applaude you for having the balls to keep the faith & stick by the club & our players & i think it may have even softened some of his hardest critics .Keep up the good work & more importantly keep the faith "jk23" strength through loyalty is our motto & you are indeed loyal

oh FFS what a crock. Reminiscent of the neo-con politico tactic of you're with us or you're against us. Just like those who claimed that being against the Iraq war, or supporting Muslim integration ,for example, made you un-Australian.
By the above, I'm not loyal. I don't swear blind uncritical loyalty to #23 so I'm not a loyal Saint. Supporting the Saints for forty years. Years of standing in the rain watching us get flogged. Whole family of Saints supporters and my old man played for the club. But I'm not loyal. Pfffft.

I thought this was for positive posts & for the record Byron I didnt mention your name in this post but if you want to rant & rave can you please start a new thread .pfffft

[st.byron]

Pfffft.
I thought this was for positive posts & for the record Byron I didnt mention your name in this post but if you want to rant & rave can you please start a new thread .pfffft

Yeh well I'm sorry mate, I just don't buy the "positive posts only' BS. It's an open forum. I took on board the comments made by Nick and Brat about being repetitive and only bought back into the thread when I was specifically mentioned.
You're post about loyalty didn't need to mention me by name to reflect on me. Being loyal and making a fair critical assessment of where a player's at aren't mutually exclusive.

[To the top]

Beware of self praise!

St Byron says he brings fair and critical assessments of where players are at.

Trouble is St Byron you are out of step with the Football Department at St Kilda FC in your continuing tirades against one particular player, based on your "fair and critical assessment".

No doubt Fremantle would jump at the chance to have a 197cm 98kg utility player of the ilk of Koschitzke on their list - is that where you are coming from?

[st.byron]

Beware of self praise!

St Byron says he brings fair and critical assessments of where players are at.

Trouble is St Byron you are out of step with the Football Department at St Kilda FC in your continuing tirades against one particular player, based on your "fair and critical assessment".

No doubt Fremantle would jump at the chance to have a 197cm 98kg utility player of the ilk of Koschitzke on their list - is that where you are coming from?

Still no real debate from you in regard to Kosi's actual performances.
Do you actually have any evidence to support the argument that Kosi is not a serial under performer, inconsistent and goes missing for weeks on end?
You can hang s*** on me all you like. I'm not interested. I am interested in having a genuine debate. Do you have any reasoned argument with some evidence to back it up?
As for being out of step with the StKFC football dept, well we might as well close the forum down since none of us are part fo the inner sanctum.

[SainterK]

I think St Byron you are not going to win your debate or sway opinion on a thread titled "pro-kosi" as you will find most posting here are as resolute in their support of Kosi as you are questioning his endeavour.

As I have always stated, if the kid needs a wake up call, then I am sure RL will take it upon himself to do so. This year he felt that the endeavour was obviously there, some however still question this fact?

[Bernard Shakey]

How do you know what Ross felt, ohwhenthesaints?

[st.byron]

I think St Byron you are not going to win your debate or sway opinion on a thread titled "pro-kosi" as you will find most posting here are as resolute in their support of Kosi as you are questioning his endeavour.

As I have always stated, if the kid needs a wake up call, then I am sure RL will take it upon himself to do so. This year he felt that the endeavour was obviously there, some however still question this fact?

no doubt you're right OWTS. Was happy to keep out of this thread after being asked to do so, until I was quoted by other posters.
Still yet to see any reasoned argument in support of what a champ Kosi currently is and unlikely to get it. Each to their own.

[SainterK]

How do you know what Ross felt, ohwhenthesaints?

I know about as much about how Ross felt, as you know about Kosi's mindset when he trains Bernard Shakey

[St DAC]

The issue with Kosi is that he's a jack of all trades, master of none type of player. A few posts above he was compared to Cam Mooney. IMO Mooney is a better forward than Kosi, but not as good a ruckman. So how can you rate his performances against full time forwards, or full time ruckmen? He's neither.

But if her weren't to play, we'd need a fulltime forward to replace him, and another ruck option as well. So he plays a valuable role, but ot's diffucult to qualtify his efforts. 30 goals as a KPP forward is not enough, yet there are plenty of full time forwards who didn't kick 30 goals. 12 possessions as a follower are not enough, yet it's par for the course for a ruckman.

Very difficult to evaluate.

[Bernard Shakey]

How do you know what Ross felt, ohwhenthesaints?

I know about as much about how Ross felt, as you know about Kosi's mindset when he trains Bernard Shakey :wink:

No, I watch Kosi train and see his body language and the amount of effort he puts in, compared to other players.

You are just guessing about Ross.