Thoughts on Farren Ray

[lendog heaven]

now we've got Fiona & Sharon

[stinger]

you are not even original mate...saw that crappy comment on big footy...ffs.......how about you cut the bs and support your team ......

[sunsaint]

and dont we all love whipping boys
I remember the love dished out for Dempster when he got drafted by RL.
And didnt he leave a huge hole in our defence when he went down
he hasnt played a game yet in the red white and black, let's wait till at least rnd 12 before we crucify him

[jackal]

From what I've seen of Ray is that he goes in hard (but does get bumped off sometimes) but in the Qualifying final had poor disposal (ala Gilbert vs Geelong) and whether he can improve his skills under pressure is the question. No doubt he adds something to the squad though and is a step up from players 22 and below so should be plating when fit and in form.

[skeptic]

The key stat here is that he's 22'ish (i think) and has played 70 odd games. The statistic is that players make that form level jump around 70-110 games...

we're potentially about to see the best in him

[Eastern]

and dont we all love whipping boys

Now that's a topic that deserves a thread of its own. I can see the venomous keyboards at work already !!

[SainterK]

The key stat here is that he's 22'ish (i think) and has played 70 odd games. The statistic is that players make that form level jump around 70-110 games...

we're potentially about to see the best in him

Skeptic? The content of your post is more of a believer....I'm with you, I have a feeling this kid is going to blossom at the Saints!

[Animal Enclosure]

I'll withold my assessment until after the draft. Lets see who we miss out on at #31 first. Then we'll just see how Farran goes in 09.

I'm a bit 50/50 with this trade. Adding a bloke with disposal issues is the last thing we need. Roo will be doing backflips at the thought of having another bloke kicking half volleys to him. However he has speed & can carry the pill through the lines which is needed.

At 22 time is on his side & he can still show significant improvement if he works his arze off.

As long as you tell us who we missed before the season and not in hindsight like most seem to work on here.

Too true, I don't seem to remember everyone being as keen for Cyril Rioli and Joel Selwood this time in the last 2 years...

Gee another smug response from Plugger... who would think?

My point my negative friend is that Ross went into trade week saying our top 2 picks were not going to be traded. I don't buy the 'our recruiters said we weren't missing out on anything dropping from 31 to 48'. I'm a confirmed card carrying 'lets rejuvenate through the draft' member.

I sincerely hope that Farren reaches his potential & is a very successful long term player for us.

I just hope that we don't see #31 (in a very solid draft) turn into a real get for the Dogs.

I tell you what Plugger, after the draft I'll make a prediction if we may a blue. You can hang, draw & quarter me on it but I'll be prepared to make an honest assessment.

PS I'll be bloody spewing if Tommy Rockliff goes at 31!

BTW... many on here were hoping Selwood snuck thru & Rioli was mentioned numerous times until we got Schneider. Rance seemed to be the common consensus last year. This year it seems to be split between Yarran, Robinson, Swift and maybe hoping Trengrove slides.

[st.byron]

I just hope that we don't see #31 (in a very solid draft) turn into a real get for the Dogs.

Even if 31 does turn into a great get for the Dogs and 48 doesn't turn out well for us, the above point is still based on the assumption that we would have taken the same kid at 31 that the Dogs will. Who will ever know who we would have taken at 31?
Once the draft is over the only people who will know will be Lyon and his team. We wont.

The draft's a bit of a lottery anyway, especially with lower picks. 48 / 31, makes little difference I reckon. I haven't done the stats but I'm guessing that if you compared picks 31 and 48 over the past ten years, the number of players who have become regular senior players from each pick would be similar.

Ray's a good get for us IMO.

[Mr Magic]

I must say I'm a little bemused.
We have multiple threads and countless posts tellng us how good various 17 and 18yo untried prospective players are going to be in this year's draft.
We pick up a blike who is 22yo, played 70 senior games, taken pick #4 in which Pick #1 was Cooney (the first #1 to win a brownlow) and who, (if I could find out how to do it) if I searched back through the records on Saintsatioanl wouild find posts on how good a prospect he was going to be.

The Bulldogs didn't offload him - he asked to be traded. You could in fact argue that the Bulldogs wanted to keep him.

Why aren't we jumping for joy that we managed to get him?

Is he worse than Dempster or Schneider?
I would argue that he is considered in football circles to be better than Dempster was when we traded for him and yet Dempster proved to be a really good get for us by the end of the season. SO much so that posters who had ridiculed him early on were bemoaning the fact that he got injured.

My assesment (albeit from not seeing him play all tha much) is that he's a far more polished version of Clinton Jones, Robert Eddy and Andrew McQualter and therefore must improve our team if he replaces any of those 3.

[mad saint guy]

I really don't see the logic in us getting Ray.

Yes, he can run. So can Fiora, Jones, McQualter and Eddy, but that doesn't mean any of them are decent AFL players.

Ray has ordinary skills, does not win contested ball, is inconsistent, goes missing in big games, has a tiny frame and has shown no signs of improvement in the past two seasons.

The other issue is that he apparently wanted to go back to WA. We should not consider recruiting a player who doesn't have his heart set on playing for St Kilda.

This week there were several long-term ruck prospects available (Seaby, Warnock), a quick, skilled half forward (Lovett), several good midfielders (Harris, Prismall) and an elite medium forward (O'Keefe). Any of those players would have added plenty to the team, but with Ray I just think we'd got a younger Fiora.

Please prove me wrong, Farren.

[Teflon]

The other issue is that he apparently wanted to go back to WA. We should not consider recruiting a player who doesn't have his heart set on playing for St Kilda.

No he wanted to stay in MELB

[matrix]

im happy with him coming to our club.
few more kilos on the frame (not too much) and work on his kicking skills over summer.
we have less skilled players on the list now at making decisions.

looking forward to seeing him have a run

[Richter]

I really don't see the logic in us getting Ray.

Yes, he can run. So can Fiora, Jones, McQualter and Eddy, but that doesn't mean any of them are decent AFL players.

He's better than all of them, also Armitage and Gwilt - hence improves the team. Probably in direct competition with Fiora and Jones for a spot. IMO a Fiora of two seasons ago was a good addition to our team - not an out and out gun, but a seasoned, reliable performer.

Ray has ordinary skills, does not win contested ball, is inconsistent, goes missing in big games, has a tiny frame and has shown no signs of improvement in the past two seasons.

He's fastish and in particular plays on - runs through the lines. Only Gram currently does this for us. Yes, has a small frame, but is courageous and only 22 - probably has some filling out still to do. A good chance that his body is not fully matured yet. As for big games..... he's only 22, plenty of chance to improve on this as he gets more experience.

The other issue is that he apparently wanted to go back to WA. We should not consider recruiting a player who doesn't have his heart set on playing for St Kilda.

Not what I heard - SEN reported that he specifically said that he DID NOT want to return to WA. Suggests a young man who feels he has plenty to prove. A bloke who just wants to play good footy for a team and coach who he values and values him. A good character trait IMO.

How many draftees would you say that had their heart set on playing for the Saints? Answer... none, that sort of desire to play for a particular club is gone... but give them a few months with the group and they take on the team as their own as their loyalty to their mates grows - we've seen it with all the 2000-2 group, no reason to doubt that it is different for others joining them.

The reason Ray left the Bulldogs was because he fell out with Eade after the Dogs-Hawks final. He's hardly the first person to think that Rodney Eade is a pratt. It might also indicate that the boy was getting ahead of himself? Luckily we have Drain who knows him to make that sort of call on his character.

[FullMonty]

Welcome aboard Raygun!
Hope you go well in the Red White and Black!

To those who have bagged him, give him a chance.

[Legendary]

Watch out everyone, mad saint guy has a new whipping boy ... a player who will never do anything good enough, and yet keeps getting selected by a panel of experienced AFL coaches ...


Fair dinkum, Ray has averaged 20 touches and 2-3 tackles a game as part of one of the better midfields in the AFL over the last 2-3 seasons ... and he's only 22.

Give the kid a farking chance.

[FullMonty]

Well said Ledge!

[saintsRrising]

This week there were several long-term ruck prospects available (Seaby, Warnock),.

Define available...

We would have had to have offered a lower pick than the Blues pick for Warnock...or we would have had to have given up a genuinely good player.

Seaby also required better than our second round pick...what would you have traded??

If you are going to bag Lyon and the Saints for our trades......then rather than make up magical wislife of players also state clearly what you would have given to get those players.

With O'Keefe...the Hawks offered a wide range of good players...so who would you have given for O"Keefe in addition to our first pick?



Yes we would look great with Judd, Jerr, O'Keefe in our team too...BUT we could not get them.

The trades we have down this year and last are collectively good value trades.

The deals done have also protected our future bu keeping our first round selection.

[remboy]

Good point SR.
One of the reasons so few trades were done this year is that no club was willing to give up their first round pick. Should we have done that to get Seaby or Warnock? I don't think so.
ROK wanted more than we could afford to pay him so he was out of the question. Lovett would have cost more (in terms of trade and salary) than we gave up for Ray so he was better value for money.

[saintsRrising]

I really don't see the logic in us getting Ray.

.

Lets see Ray is an outside running mid said to have a truly exceptional tank.

Now mmmm lets see....which two players just retired from the Saints after 2008???

Well one was a FF (Gtrain)....and the other a guy called Harvey who spent the year playing as an outside running mid with an exceptional tank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So seems to me there is a vacancy in our 22 for an outside running mid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....and that Ray fits the bill quite nicely. 75 games and is ready to play.



Now I am not saying he is another Harvey...just that he can fill the postional niche that Harvey had in 2008 and which consequently had become vacant.

[St Fidelius]

Ray has ordinary skills, does not win contested ball, is inconsistent, goes missing in big games, has a tiny frame and has shown no signs of improvement in the past two seasons.

Please explain "goes missing in big games" and
"shown no signs of of improvement in the past two seasons"

His last game was in the Qualifying Final against the Hawks, where he had 23 disposals and 8 marks... hardly gone missing IMO...

2007 Ray averaged 15 disposals a game

2008 Ray averaged 19 disposals a game

and that, in your opinion is showing no signs of improvement

[remboy]

As I said in another post, one of the main things we've lacked in the last few seasons was pace and that's one of the things that Ray has. If nothing else we'll at least be faster for having him.

[mad saint guy]

Please explain "goes missing in big games" and
"shown no signs of of improvement in the past two seasons"

His last game was in the Qualifying Final against the Hawks, where he had 23 disposals and 8 marks... hardly gone missing IMO...

2007 Ray averaged 15 disposals a game

2008 Ray averaged 19 disposals a game

and that, in your opinion is showing no signs of improvement

The qualifying final from Ray was one of the worst finals performances I have ever seen. Everything he touched turned to crap.

It's not a matter of stats with Ray, it's about the amount of impact he has with his possessions. Maybe I've just happened to watch Bulldogs games when he's had off-days, but from what I've seen he often does more harm than good. His disposal has not improved since he has been in the AFL and he still gets pushed aside too easily.

He must have a bit of ability to be taken at pick 4, but I've seen nothing to suggest he offers anything more than Fiora.

[plugger66]

Please explain "goes missing in big games" and
"shown no signs of of improvement in the past two seasons"

His last game was in the Qualifying Final against the Hawks, where he had 23 disposals and 8 marks... hardly gone missing IMO...

2007 Ray averaged 15 disposals a game

2008 Ray averaged 19 disposals a game

and that, in your opinion is showing no signs of improvement

The qualifying final from Ray was one of the worst finals performances I have ever seen. Everything he touched turned to crap.

It's not a matter of stats with Ray, it's about the amount of impact he has with his possessions. Maybe I've just happened to watch Bulldogs games when he's had off-days, but from what I've seen he often does more harm than good. His disposal has not improved since he has been in the AFL and he still gets pushed aside too easily.

He must have a bit of ability to be taken at pick 4, but I've seen nothing to suggest he offers anything more than Fiora.

Agree if its all about finals performance this year then you obviously dont have Dal in your best side.

[Spinner]

Please explain "goes missing in big games" and
"shown no signs of of improvement in the past two seasons"

His last game was in the Qualifying Final against the Hawks, where he had 23 disposals and 8 marks... hardly gone missing IMO...

2007 Ray averaged 15 disposals a game

2008 Ray averaged 19 disposals a game

and that, in your opinion is showing no signs of improvement

The qualifying final from Ray was one of the worst finals performances I have ever seen. Everything he touched turned to crap.

It's not a matter of stats with Ray, it's about the amount of impact he has with his possessions. Maybe I've just happened to watch Bulldogs games when he's had off-days, but from what I've seen he often does more harm than good. His disposal has not improved since he has been in the AFL and he still gets pushed aside too easily.

He must have a bit of ability to be taken at pick 4, but I've seen nothing to suggest he offers anything more than Fiora.

Agree if its all about finals performance this year then you obviously dont have Dal in your best side.

Most of the queries with Ray have been the effectiveness of his disposal. I think people generally think it is a probably. And when I say 'people', I mean keen Bulldog observers.

I haven't seen enough - But boy am I excited!

PS - I seem to remember 22 CRAP performances in a final not too long ago.