Pro-Kosi thread

[Iceman234]

Great news.

Saw a bumper sticker in Melton the other day...

"Kosi's Fine for '09"

Any takers?

[Bernard Shakey]

A long way from Belvedere Park.

[saintly_safes]

great to see byron & clanga (bernard) put their negative point of veiw on the positive site, hopefully 2 negatives make a positive "Go Kosi"

[Bernard Shakey]

Negative?

Fact. Melton is a long way from Belvedere Park.

[Iceman234]

Negative?

Fact. Melton is a long way from Belvedere Park.

I just bought a damned GPS on ebay so I can get there.

But more to the point - whose bumper sticker was it?

[Bernard Shakey]

Probably Linda Koslowski, Paul Hogan's missus.

[Iceman234]

Probably Linda Koslowski, Paul Hogan's missus.

Yes I see it now......

So Croc Dundee 4 is..... doesn't matter

[jk23]

Great news.

Saw a bumper sticker in Melton the other day...

"Kosi's Fine for '09"

Any takers?

It's not me, but I want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jk23]

[Zed]

I'm a Kosi fan

One of the few guys in our team who can turn a guy single handedly when on song

[St Fidelius]

I'm a Kosi fan

One of the few guys in our team who can turn a guy single handedly when on song

Nah, I'll never turn, but each to their own I guess Zed

[GrumpyOne]

I'm a Kosi fan

One of the few guys in our team who can turn a guy single handedly when on song

Nah...... If he sang to me I don't think I'd turn.

Stop pinching my punchlines St Fid.

[SAMMYGILBERT#1]

honesty. integrity. passion. 3 words to sum up the mans game. never seen anybody hit a pack for the contested mark like the KOS.
Go the sainters...

[Bernard Shakey]

honesty. integrity. passion. 3 words to sum up the mans game. never seen anybody hit a pack for the contested mark like the KOS.
Go the sainters...

Obviously too young to have ever seen Plugger play.

[saintly_safes]

honesty. integrity. passion. 3 words to sum up the mans game. never seen anybody hit a pack for the contested mark like the KOS.
Go the sainters...

Obviously too young to have ever seen Plugger play.

Carnt believe you & i actually agree on something . Tony lockett was not only courageous but brilliant & just an all round superstar.I have never put Kosi in that category & never will.Kosi is never going to be a Tony Lockett but there are only a precious few that will ever get to that level . He was the hero of the Moorabbin through some tough times & I personally think he was the most talented player that i ever saw wear the saints jumper(never saw Baldock or Stewart in their heyday).Robert Harvey is an icon & I love him like a brother but A. Lockett was the best ive seen.Kosi has been & will be an important player for us in years come. I think we just need to be more repectful of his contribution & more supportive of the team as a whole instead of the dog eat dog attitude that seems to be the norm on this site .But everyones entitled to their opinion i'm just expressing mine. Go Sainters

[Mr Magic]

honesty. integrity. passion. 3 words to sum up the mans game. never seen anybody hit a pack for the contested mark like the KOS.
Go the sainters...

Obviously too young to have ever seen Plugger play.

Carnt believe you & i actually agree on something . Tony lockett was not only courageous but brilliant & just an all round superstar.I have never put Kosi in that category & never will.Kosi is never going to be a Tony Lockett but there are only a precious few that will ever get to that level . He was the hero of the Moorabbin through some tough times & I personally think he was the most talented player that i ever saw wear the saints jumper(never saw Baldock or Stewart in their heyday).Robert Harvey is an icon & I love him like a brother but A. Lockett was the best ive seen.Kosi has been & will be an important player for us in years come. I think we just need to be more repectful of his contribution & more supportive of the team as a whole instead of the dog eat dog attitude that seems to be the norm on this site .But everyones entitled to their opinion i'm just expressing mine. Go Sainters

I've seen them all since 1964 and the only one who had the same intimidatory presence as Plugger was Big Carl.

Yes there were others like Cowboy who opposition plyers tended to take note where tehy were and there werre 'mad bastards' who'd whack you for no reason _ Muir, Burns, but for sheer intimidation - -Big Carl and Plugger.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

great to see byron & clanga (bernard) put their negative point of veiw on the positive site, hopefully 2 negatives make a positive "Go Kosi"

I've avoided posting in this thread; I've played Kosi defender in enough of them, and certainly Byron and I know each other's view on the big fella pretty well.

So I jump in here, as someone who thinks Koschitzke is an important and difficult to replace, if flawed player to point out that both Byron and Shakey have many times backed up their view of why they think what they do about Kosi (Byron on potential v reality, and Shakey with game form and training form). If their view is coloured by the extent of Kosi opinion which is not backed up, that's really fair enough - the sentiment with which this thread started has been the majority view of Kosi for a long time, and it's only over the last 12 months that has really shifted.

I say it because I think those cheering Kosi on would do well to take both Byron and Shakey's commentary on Kosi to heart - it may seem reflexive and repetitive, but that's how message boards are. If we want to really assess Kosi's value, it should be done on what he does and who he is, not on what he could do or has occasionally done.

Otherwise, starting a cheerleading thread for Kosi and expecting it to be Byron and Shakey free is like a matador being surprised when they get gored after going into the ring on their day off.

(PS. to Byron and Shakey, I know you're big boys who don't need me to defend you... I'm not. I'm encouraging others to listen to why you say what you do.)

[Sobraz]

great to see byron & clanga (bernard) put their negative point of veiw on the positive site, hopefully 2 negatives make a positive "Go Kosi"

I've avoided posting in this thread; I've played Kosi defender in enough of them, and certainly Byron and I know each other's view on the big fella pretty well.

So I jump in here, as someone who thinks Koschitzke is an important and difficult to replace, if flawed player to point out that both Byron and Shakey have many times backed up their view of why they think what they do about Kosi (Byron on potential v reality, and Shakey with game form and training form). If their view is coloured by the extent of Kosi opinion which is not backed up, that's really fair enough - the sentiment with which this thread started has been the majority view of Kosi for a long time, and it's only over the last 12 months that has really shifted.

I say it because I think those cheering Kosi on would do well to take both Byron and Shakey's commentary on Kosi to heart - it may seem reflexive and repetitive, but that's how message boards are. If we want to really assess Kosi's value, it should be done on what he does and who he is, not on what he could do or has occasionally done.

Otherwise, starting a cheerleading thread for Kosi and expecting it to be Byron and Shakey free is like a matador being surprised when they get gored after going into the ring on their day off.

(PS. to Byron and Shakey, I know you're big boys who don't need me to defend you... I'm not. I'm encouraging others to listen to why you say what you do.)

I have listened, and still have a headache... All fair enough if both Byron and Shakey were atleast consistant...

Byron has praised Kings efforts many times this year.. Lets call a spade a spade, King had a solid second half of the year, but at no stage did he stand out over Kosi's efforts... he was average at best... Yet Kosi copped the wrath of Byron where King was the hero..

Shakey refuses to give credit where its due, by running with the "he was ok" in games Kosi was very good in, and childishly picks on a turnover or two or a missed shot at goal...
Then, when Kos plays a bad one, its no holds barred... At his peak, wankey also highjacks pretty much every thread stating Kosi MUST and WILL be traded... Well, I guess he was wrong... This from a guy who has posted that X is a top line player who we must persist with... Whilst not meaning to bag X, Id think its pretty obvious who is of more value to our team between X and Kosi..

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I've avoided posting in this thread; I've played Kosi defender in enough of them, and certainly Byron and I know each other's view on the big fella pretty well.

So I jump in here, as someone who thinks Koschitzke is an important and difficult to replace, if flawed player to point out that both Byron and Shakey have many times backed up their view of why they think what they do about Kosi (Byron on potential v reality, and Shakey with game form and training form). If their view is coloured by the extent of Kosi opinion which is not backed up, that's really fair enough - the sentiment with which this thread started has been the majority view of Kosi for a long time, and it's only over the last 12 months that has really shifted.

I say it because I think those cheering Kosi on would do well to take both Byron and Shakey's commentary on Kosi to heart - it may seem reflexive and repetitive, but that's how message boards are. If we want to really assess Kosi's value, it should be done on what he does and who he is, not on what he could do or has occasionally done.

Otherwise, starting a cheerleading thread for Kosi and expecting it to be Byron and Shakey free is like a matador being surprised when they get gored after going into the ring on their day off.

(PS. to Byron and Shakey, I know you're big boys who don't need me to defend you... I'm not. I'm encouraging others to listen to why you say what you do.)

I have listened, and still have a headache... All fair enough if both Byron and Shakey were atleast consistant...

Byron has praised Kings efforts many times this year.. Lets call a spade a spade, King had a solid second half of the year, but at no stage did he stand out over Kosi's efforts... he was average at best... Yet Kosi copped the wrath of Byron where King was the hero..

Shakey refuses to give credit where its due, by running with the "he was ok" in games Kosi was very good in, and childishly picks on a turnover or two or a missed shot at goal...
Then, when Kos plays a bad one, its no holds barred... At his peak, wankey also highjacks pretty much every thread stating Kosi MUST and WILL be traded... Well, I guess he was wrong... This from a guy who has posted that X is a top line player who we must persist with... Whilst not meaning to bag X, Id think its pretty obvious who is of more value to our team between X and Kosi..

Certainly not suggesting you have to love and cuddle either of them Anyone who reads message boards without a grain of salt or two tends not to last though eh?

My read is that there are 3 seperate frustrations with Kosi of which they embody 2. The concerns are relevant, what the posters do beyond those concerns they can speak to themselves.

One of the frustrations is potential (the Byron stance I'll call it), and there are 2 sides to this coin. One is that there are a lot of Saints fans who still base there opinion of Kosi on what he could be. While personally I don't think potential's a dirty word, or that you're ever too old to improve, there's no doubt that with each passing year it becomes less likely that a player can be expected to improve a lot... and Kosi's in his mid 20s without having settled to a position. His tapwork isn't 1st ruckworthy, his leads aren't KPP worthy, and he struggles to find open space. So while he's a viable 2nd option for either (and more), it does lead to a (debatable) view that King > Kosi due to bread & butter ruckwork.

The flipside is that there do seem to be posters who hold a grudge against Kosi for not fulfilling his potential and being another Nick Reiwoldt. Perhaps that's my perception though, and so I attribute it to nobody specifically.

The second aspect is desire/heart/etc. To my mind, Shakey is the poster poster for this - but difficult to argue with because Shakey watches the Saints train and I do not. We've all heard "playing form is training form", and I've heard bad things about Kosi at training without hearing good things. Kosi's inability to find open space in games contributes to this perception as well. Personally, I put that one down to smarts - i.e. he's never going to command uncontested ball off his own back. With the right, simple set of instructions he might be made to look good (ala first half West Coast for Harves 350th), but he'll never do it himself.

As for trading etc. anyone making predictions of trades happening without insider knowledge is worth only the cost of bandwidth. It's always safer to bet against. Kosi didn't get traded, so there's not much need to rub it into those who wanted to see it.

The 3rd concern is his cost against the cap. My view is that this is so speculative that it's not worth taking into the equation - it would be a definate factor were I the list manager and in the know, but from following sports like the NHL (salary capped) and MLB (not capped), where this info IS public, the complications are enough that to try and consider them on guesswork is a waste of time. I can see where the other side comes from on this, but it's hard to reconcile my view and theirs enough to debate it meaningfully.

At face value, there can seem to be bias. My view comes because after debating Byron in a couple of threads, I can see his POV. I've never done similar with Shakey, but when pressed, he can site his observations from training. So while I may agree with neither, balancing my view against theirs means that I have confidence that when I state my opinion - Kosi's a walkup start best 22 player worth persisting with if he doesn't improve, so we might as well continue to hope he does. There are a couple of areas he needs to work on himself, and he could be made to look better, but he'll never be the guy we hoped back when he won the rising star. I'd like to hear better things about what he does at training, but won't hold my breath. I disagree fundamentally on a number of things with Byron and Shakey, but can respect their views and believe the revers is true. I'm more confidant in my opinion for their input.

Today I'm a glass half full guy

[saintly]

I'm a Kosi fan

One of the few guys in our team who can turn a guy single handedly when on song

yeah, well he has only done it in 4 matches in 2005.

potential only

[st.byron]

I have listened, and still have a headache... All fair enough if both Byron and Shakey were atleast consistant...

Byron has praised Kings efforts many times this year.. Lets call a spade a spade, King had a solid second half of the year, but at no stage did he stand out over Kosi's efforts... he was average at best... Yet Kosi copped the wrath of Byron where King was the hero..

I said I wouldn't post again on this thread after being taken to task by Nick and Brat for being too repetitive.
However, in light of being specifically referred to in several posts it's only fair that I have right of reply.
Thanks BAM!! for recognising what I've been consistently on about and not reflexively jumping to blind defence of Kosi coz you love him. Debate is good and everyone's entitled to their opinion, so long as they have some solid grounds to back it up that go beyond blind loyalty or personal admiration. Let's evaluate Kosi on his actual on-field achievements rather than what he could be, how good a bloke he is or the fact he wears a StKFC jumper putting him beyond criticism. That's it in a nutshell.

Sobraz, I've been very consistent in my attitude to Kosi. I've said all along that numerous posters continue to evaluate him based on what he could be rather than what he actually is. This is my primary beef re Kosi. I don't have any dislike of the guy or other agenda and would be delighted if he actually came through and delivered on his potential. I just want him evaluated based on his actual contribution. Simple really.
And using King as an example of me being inconsistent doesn't stack up.

For a start, King's been in StKFC jumper for one season.
Koschitzke's been a Saint since 2001. So evaluation of Kosi is based on seven years of failing to deliver as a # 2 draft pick. Evaluation of King is based on one year of solid performances from a 28 y.o we took with pick 90 who had serious doubts hanging over him about his ability to remain fit.

You claim Kosi had a better 2008 than King. Look at the stats :

King - 18.5 hit-outs, 11 disposals, 2.7 tackles per game. 6th on list of total
hit-outs for the year.
Kosi - 5.9 hit-outs, 12 disposals, 2.2 tackles per game. 33rd on list of total
hit-outs.

King is a pure ruckman, Kosi is a ruckman / forward, so Kosi's contribution as a 30 goal forward also counts as a plus for him. Based on how well they actually delivered on their appointed task in 2008, King IMO did his job more effectively than Koschitzke.

[st.byron]

Certainly not suggesting you have to love and cuddle either of them Anyone who reads message boards without a grain of salt or two tends not to last though eh?

My read is that there are 3 seperate frustrations with Kosi of which they embody 2. The concerns are relevant, what the posters do beyond those concerns they can speak to themselves.

One of the frustrations is potential (the Byron stance I'll call it), and there are 2 sides to this coin. One is that there are a lot of Saints fans who still base there opinion of Kosi on what he could be. While personally I don't think potential's a dirty word, or that you're ever too old to improve, there's no doubt that with each passing year it becomes less likely that a player can be expected to improve a lot... and Kosi's in his mid 20s without having settled to a position. His tapwork isn't 1st ruckworthy, his leads aren't KPP worthy, and he struggles to find open space. So while he's a viable 2nd option for either (and more), it does lead to a (debatable) view that King > Kosi due to bread & butter ruckwork.

The flipside is that there do seem to be posters who hold a grudge against Kosi for not fulfilling his potential and being another Nick Reiwoldt. Perhaps that's my perception though, and so I attribute it to nobody specifically.

The second aspect is desire/heart/etc. To my mind, Shakey is the poster poster for this - but difficult to argue with because Shakey watches the Saints train and I do not. We've all heard "playing form is training form", and I've heard bad things about Kosi at training without hearing good things. Kosi's inability to find open space in games contributes to this perception as well. Personally, I put that one down to smarts - i.e. he's never going to command uncontested ball off his own back. With the right, simple set of instructions he might be made to look good (ala first half West Coast for Harves 350th), but he'll never do it himself.

As for trading etc. anyone making predictions of trades happening without insider knowledge is worth only the cost of bandwidth. It's always safer to bet against. Kosi didn't get traded, so there's not much need to rub it into those who wanted to see it.

The 3rd concern is his cost against the cap. My view is that this is so speculative that it's not worth taking into the equation - it would be a definate factor were I the list manager and in the know, but from following sports like the NHL (salary capped) and MLB (not capped), where this info IS public, the complications are enough that to try and consider them on guesswork is a waste of time. I can see where the other side comes from on this, but it's hard to reconcile my view and theirs enough to debate it meaningfully.

At face value, there can seem to be bias. My view comes because after debating Byron in a couple of threads, I can see his POV. I've never done similar with Shakey, but when pressed, he can site his observations from training. So while I may agree with neither, balancing my view against theirs means that I have confidence that when I state my opinion - Kosi's a walkup start best 22 player worth persisting with if he doesn't improve, so we might as well continue to hope he does. There are a couple of areas he needs to work on himself, and he could be made to look better, but he'll never be the guy we hoped back when he won the rising star. I'd like to hear better things about what he does at training, but won't hold my breath. I disagree fundamentally on a number of things with Byron and Shakey, but can respect their views and believe the revers is true. I'm more confidant in my opinion for their input.

Today I'm a glass half full guy

excellent summary of the primary issues re Kosi BAM.
Also agree that he's a player that would be very hard to replace and I've been consistent in not advocating trading him, unless the deal was an absolute ripper. Still worth his place in our first 22, but needs to develop consistent solid contributions and not go missing for weeks on end.

[Bernard Shakey]

Good post Bam!

As far as I'm concerned Kosi is on the list for 2009 and I look forward to the Saints having a more consistent year than 2008.

Another preseason under Ross and a clearer understanding of the game plan should make a big difference.

I hope Kosi makes me look stupid.

[jk23]

Good post Bam!

As far as I'm concerned Kosi is on the list for 2009 and I look forward to the Saints having a more consistent year than 2008.

Another preseason under Ross and a clearer understanding of the game plan should make a big difference.

I hope Kosi makes me look stupid.

So do I

[crackers35]

I reckon everyone should leave Kosi alone unless they've got something nice to say about him.
Being an AFL footballer would be a very hard job.
Not everyone plays great every week, No player is perfect every week
He's had one bad year - almost every player in the AFL has had ONE bad year