Sorry Ross....

[Otiman]

Riewoldt playing well isn't just Riewoldt playing well. Just like any forward, they play much better when the midfield are winning the ball and delivering it to them.

We got smashed in the midfield - that's nothing to do with Roo. If we had have beaten the hawks in that area, he would have kicked 5 or 6.

[barks4eva]

Riewoldt playing well isn't just Riewoldt playing well. Just like any forward, they play much better when the midfield are winning the ball and delivering it to them.

We got smashed in the midfield - that's nothing to do with Roo. If we had have beaten the hawks in that area, he would have kicked 5 or 6.

Exactly, bit hard for dodgy to get a grasp on, but in fairness to dodgy, his attention span is obviously affected by the continual grasp he has on other parts of his anatomy.

[ScubaSam44]

you cant blame ross.
theres only so much he can do.
the rest is up to the boys.
he cant say something, and make it happen.

[maverick]

Blaming the bottom six is easy and also a mistake in my opinion.
We lost on Saturday and against Geelong because our very best in Roo, Kosi, Dal, Joey, Lenny, etc had poor or very poor games.
The bottom six will play better when they have quality around feeding them, if they could lift the team it wouldn't be the bottom then would it?

Expecting CJ, Armo and Eddy to come in and be in the best players when our so called elite aren't is unrealistic.

The only bottom six player to play well was Raph, he was better than all but Max on Sat night, showed up many others...

We need an A grade mid, whether that's an imported one ala Cousins, Kerr or get one of our own in Ball or Dal to lift to that level...A grade means either no obvious defiencies in one's game or being the best in one part that overshadows the slight weakness....

Depth is one thing but our preceived quality at the top also needs addressing....

[saintsRrising]

....but you need to find another trick.


The 'master coach' wouldn't be overly popular I wouldn't think and we'd be asking some pretty serious questions.

Looks like we lost...RF's knife is out again....




No Rodgerfox...you are the one that needs to find another trick.

You are a snide Lyon Basher that hides behind veiled criticism's.

You have been proven 100% wrong in your constant critism's of RL.

Anyone aprt from you that has watched us play the Hawks and Cat's recently would realise and understand that their cattle is better than ours.

As one example just watch the packs...their mids have to skill to hit tragets on the outsede who can then getaway.

Ours cannot do this as well or as often..and indeed it often goaes to the oppostion.


lyon can tell players wat to do...but he cannot hanball for them.

Lyon getting us to top 4 with the players at his disposal clearly demonstraes that he is the right man for the job.


I have full faith in Lyon, and he will continue to improve the Saints.

But Lyon is no magician, and people should be no allusion while the saints were alseep at the wjheel with poor list mangement that teams passed us.



One of Rodger's past repeated posts was that Drafts do not really make a difference.....

Look at the lear top 3 teams this year.

Cats.....not many early drfat picks, but lots of father sons that would have been. add to this obviously good drafting relative to picks.

Hawks. Lots of early picks...and they boosted what they had by trading awy older players for more. They then used this with good selections and full use of the rookie system.

The Dogs. Lots of early picks and in the main good drafting. so far it has been their section of talls which has let them down.

You build successful teams by good drafting over time...whetherit is by kids or trades ora bit of both. Ever year you need to had some quality players. take your eyes of this...and you go backwards because out of the 16 teams there will be some at the top of their game.


We like the Hawks assembleda great list...however we then lapsed and frittered away our chances through ineptitude. The Hawks kept improving.


Jb oncea good recruiter waskept on too long...you only have to see the average skill level of our players compared to best teams to know that we were"not best in the competition, or close to it" at talent indentification...which is what you need to be if you want a flag.

I am confident that we will get better with our changing of the guard with our new recruiter...and that this actually started last draft.

But we are behind.....and need to catch up...

[bigcarl]

The reliance on Roo was once again highlighted.
He needs to fix this. It's been the major factor all year.

it's been a factor for years, even going back to GT, and gehrig's decline and retirement has made it worse.

we need to find another key forward.

personally i'd pencil goddard in at full forward for 2009, regardless of what it may or may not do to our midfield. i can't see a problem with putting a very good player such as him in one of the key positions on the ground.

there is a reason they're called key positions.

[Saint Bev]

We havn't had a full forward all year. So Roo has had a big load to carry.

[rodgerfox]

One of Rodger's past repeated posts was that Drafts do not really make a difference.....

Really?

There must be another Rodger on here, because I've never said anything like that at all.

[Joffa Burns]

As much as poor old Dodge tries to hide it, he is still seething from the sacking of his messiah GT.

Does anyone remember this great Dodgy comment....â€

[rodgerfox]

[quote="Joffa Burns"]

Does anyone remember this great Dodgy comment....â€

[Joffa Burns]

I remember it. It's exactly what I said and I stand by it.

We weren't that great a side then. But we jumped the comp and nearly pinched a flag.

I stand by that, aboslutely.

Not sure which year we nearly pinched a flag

I remember losing to Adelaide in '97 but don't remember the GF we made after '97.

[BakesFan]

[we have lost that asshole attitude since hammer, powell etc stopped playing

we were the inventors of unsociable football as it is now called...when we played well we played rough, hard and at times over the rules...we were suspended however in my opinion it was worth the weeks

Hamill, Powell, Burkie, G-Train, Stevie Lawrence, Heath Black... even Brett Voss..... Hard, tough, intimidating players that we haven't replaced.
From 1/2 way through 2003 untill the end of 2005 we were hardnuts playing tough, uncompromising footy. It was attack the ball at all costs or attack the opposition mongrel who has it.

The Cats learned from us and improved.. now they're going for their 2nd flag while we seem to be going backwards.

I don't care if it's GT's fault for letting the list deteriorate, or RL's fault for for his new gameplan.... the simple fact is we're nowhere near good enough in our current incarnation.

That being said, I'm pretty sure RL is no dill. He seems well aware of our faults and I think we need to give him the opportunity to address them.

Rant over..... I Love this club... GO SAINTS!!!

[Richter]

Talk about stating the obvious Rodg.

The question is how do we find more avenues to goal? The solutions are not easy to find and implement and certainly no "trick"....

1/ Improved midfield

2/ Find/develop another marking target up forward - preferably medium mobile forward ala Charlie Gardiner x 10

[timtam]

HAwthorn have talent down to player 22, so do the Cats... We don't.

We haven't since 1997. Even in 2004 & 2005 we had little depth. I do believe it is improving though in the last couple of seasons.

[rodgerfox]

HAwthorn have talent down to player 22, so do the Cats... We don't.

We haven't since 1997. Even in 2004 & 2005 we had little depth. I do believe it is improving though in the last couple of seasons.

We had some ordinary players in 97.

Geleong have some duds too right now, so do Hawthorn.


The difference is that their good players are up every week, week in week out. Against good sides and against poor ones.

Ours aren't.

[Joffa Burns]

Geleong have some duds too right now, so do Hawthorn.

The difference is that their good players are up every week, week in week out. Against good sides and against poor ones.

Ours aren't.

I’d be interested to know who are Geelong’s duds and to a lesser extent Hawthorn’s.

At Geelong I would say only Lonergan is an ordinary league footballer or less and he will lose his spot to a maturing Tom Hawkins.

Potentially Wojinski, Kelly or Stokes could make way for Chapman and I would deem all three good AFL players who would all walk into our starting 22.

Fringe players such as Burns and Prismal look better at Geelong than they would elsewhere but would still be starting 22 elsewhere.

I think guys like Enright & Corey are rated higher than their value but I very much doubt they have any duds in their current line up or best 22.

Most premiership teams have hard luck stories of the unlucky guy who missed out, that is why they are premiership teams.

We had on Saturday night Gwilt, CJ (as much as I admire his endeavour), Eddy & Mini who are not AFL standard footballers at the moment.

Give me 4 Hawks or 4 Cats that are not AFL standard

[St Fidelius]

There are probably 3 or 4 players in most clubs that are not up to AFL standard IMO


This figure will increase with the proposed two extra sides joining the competition in the future

But both Geelong and Hawthorn lists are far deeper in good quality players than the rest of the competition IMO

[WayneJudson42]

HAwthorn have talent down to player 22, so do the Cats... We don't.

We haven't since 1997. Even in 2004 & 2005 we had little depth. I do believe it is improving though in the last couple of seasons.

We had some ordinary players in 97.

Geleong have some duds too right now, so do Hawthorn.


The difference is that their good players are up every week, week in week out. Against good sides and against poor ones.

Ours aren't.

In other words, we have a few who are up every week. Others drift in and out. Which means the players need to have a long hard look at themselves IMO.

Another thinly veiled swipe at the coach Rdge?

Also probably explains why we lost in 97.

If you think our good players are as good as the Cats, then you are delusional.

[rodgerfox]

In other words, we have a few who are up every week. Others drift in and out. Which means the players need to have a long hard look at themselves IMO.

Another thinly veiled swipe at the coach Rdge?

Also probably explains why we lost in 97.

Thinly veiled??

I haven't veiled anything.

The coaches job is to get players 'up' every week. He gets paid to do that. If he can't, he gets paid to get players in that he can get 'up' every week.

Lyon, in his 2 years, has achieved this for only 12 weeks.

During that time, we appeared to have depth. We didn't lack leg speed. We didn't lack skill. etc. etc.

Simply, our good players are very, very good. When they play well, we as a team look very good.

The problem is that the 'master coach', the 'messiah', can't get what is the coach's number 1 responsibility right - getting the players to play at full intensity every week for 4 quarters.

Geelong have been a different side, since they got fit and learnt to play at 100% every week for 4 quarters.

The 1 time they didn't do that in the past 18 months, guess what happened? They got rolled by 90 points and suddenly appeared to have holes everywhere in their list.

Hawthorn were up by 5 goals against us at half time a month or so ago, then took their foot off the gas. Guess what happened? We won by 5 goals and suddenly Hawthorn looked ordinary.


Intensity is the key. Always has been, and always will be. It's an area the coach has failed in badly for all but 12 weeks of his tenure.

[Joffa Burns]

Hey Rodgy Dodgy,

I'd love to know which flag we almost stole under the 'messiah GT' and which Geelong and Hawks are the 'DUDS' to whom you refer?

[rodgerfox]

Hey Rodgy Dodgy,

I'd love to know which flag we almost stole under the 'messiah GT' and which Geelong and Hawks are the 'DUDS' to whom you refer?

According to plenty, we nearly pinched 2004.

I'm not one of them. We wouldn't have beaten Brisbane I don't think.

As for your second question. Easy.

Geelong-Stokes.
Blake.
Hunt.
Lonergan.


Hawthorn-
Ladson.
Guerra.
Young.
Osborne (not a total dud, but very average battler)
Birchall.


And that's just off the top of my head. Most of those guys were actually VFL players, until their teams (or more importantly their team's guns) really stepped up and allowed ordinary players to be carried.


Even Brisbane carried McGrath, Copeland, Shattock, Notting etc. in their flag years.

Average players that became toally hopeless once the team struggled after the superstars retired.

[JeffDunne]

Fatboy Dew?

He wouldn't get a game in an average or poor team.

He's a luxury a good team can afford.

[rodgerfox]

Fatboy Dew?

He wouldn't get a game in an average or poor team.

He's a luxury a good team can afford.

Yeah, he's another.


There's a reason such a thing called the 'premiership hangover' exists. It's because the team that wins the flag doesn't do it on talent or their 'list' alone. They find it hard to back up the same effort and intensity after achieving the ultimate the year before.

Same players. Same talent. Different level of effort. Different result.

[saint66au]

Give me 4 Hawks or 4 Cats that are not AFL standard

Charlie Gardiner?
Emergency in the 07 Cats flag side..played in a VFL Premiership..by the criteria here would have dominated at St Kilda. Didnt happen and has been whipped here as often as any player

Steven King.?
See above except that he DID play in the Cats flag side. Has had a GOOD year with us but would be stretching it to say he was one of the dominant big men of the competiton.

Fringe players at ANY cluib moving elsewhere and re-establishing their careers is never a sure thing..no matter where they came from. We recruited 3 premiership players and an emergency from a premiership side. Lets see if any of them end up Top 10 in our B&F eh?

[Joffa Burns]

According to plenty, we nearly pinched 2004.

Nearly pinched ’04, may I point out we didn’t actually make the GF!
Sure you need to make the GF to have a shot at pinching the flag.

As for your second question. Easy.

Geelong-Stokes.
Blake.
Hunt.
Lonergan.

Hard to argue with Lonergan as he has benefited from N.Abletts departure and will be overtaken by Tom Hawkins. Height and his position is the only thing that saves him.

Blake is no star but was preferred to S.King (who had a reasonable season) by the Cats. Is a willing worker but an average player at best. His playing position is his benefit.

Hunt is another player who looks good at the Cats but would struggle elsewhere IMO.

I give you the above three Rodg.

It does look like a good player will miss out though such as Wojinski or Kelly, who in pure football talents would smash the above three.

Hawthorn-
Ladson.
Guerra.
Young.
Osborne (not a total dud, but very average battler)
Birchall.

Way off the mark here I’m afraid.

1/ Birchall – 20 year 192cm runner with 60+ games under his belt.
Beautiful disposal and will be IMO a 200+ premiership player by the time his career is over. Good footballer who will become a very, very good footballer.

2/ Osborne – Late developer after converting to AFL in his teens. Athletic competitive and hard at it. GOP – but no dud.

3/ Young – 22 year old midfielder with good pace and disposal. Is no gun but better than a Montagna at the same age. GOP – but no dud.

4/ Guerra – Was good enough to be a starting 18 in the year we almost pinched a flag.
Was good enough to be a starting 18 in a very strong PA side. Only held back by his personal issues. Good enough to be a starting 18 player in this weeks GF. Is a hard at it good AFL footballer – No dud.

5/ Ladson – Average midfielder who would struggle in a lesser team. No real outstanding attributes. Give you this one.