Kosi

[rexy]

Play him at CHB, Blake most likely out, play him on Cloke this week.

[WayneJudson42]

Was and am still a fan, and have defended him all year. Gotta look at the big picture IMO. If it's a fitness issue, then the club will factor this in. If not, then you gotta examine all options tbh.

8 years of "he could be anything" doesn't cut the mustard. If you can't find a constructive role for him, then u gotta make the tough calls.

For an elite footballer, he has promised much, but delivered little.

Take a long look at our list and see what we lack. If trading a certain player brings a better result, then why not?

ATM, I can't see a spot for him in a premiership team. I do however se a spot for a gun mid, or a good KPP back.

Only on the internet does stuff like this pretend to be serious talk of making tough decisions. All it really is is weak scapegoating.

No place in the team for a tall marking ruck-forward? Turn it up. He's not a superstar. He quite probably never will be... But making the tough call is realising that very few of these creatures exist, and that if he can hold his own in a game, you're closer to having one than most. Making the tough call is sticking with the guy.

Call's of "trade him, he's not good enough" and then expecting to find a gun mid to take his place, or a gun KPP is ridiculous - to command that in return, he'd need to be a gun himself.

You don't unload walk up start talls unless you have to. Sometimes that means patience to the point of never getting anywhere... but that's a genuine tough call.

Read my previous posts on Kosi u tool. Have defended him to the hilt.

Yes there were far worse players than him today. But he's the type that should lift with all his upside and potential, and the money he earns.

If Gwilt has a bad game, you can accept it coz what you see is what you get. Kosi is a different case IMO.

Finals are a stage where the cream rises to the top... he didn't. simple.

As much as I want all of our players to do well, you still gotta look at the big picture.

Just coz he's tall means jack. Brooks was tall, so was Ackland... and Knobel.

If you can't make him a useful part of the structure, then you'd have to consider a trade.

No player is untouchable, and the same goes for everyone on our list.

So don't accuse me of scapegoating. I've been consistant in my defence of players during my short time on this forum.

I haven't read all your previous posts? Gee, silly me, my records trying to keep track of WJ42s thoughts must be off.

If you want to look at the big picture, try actually doing it - the post I responded to was little more than kneejerk rhetoric. You pretty much say it above - your problem with Kosi is that he didn't rise to the top.

If a player dissapoints your expectations once, shame on them. They do it twice, shame on you. If you're expecting Kosi to carry this team through finals, then wake the F up.

If you want to trade him because he's not carrying us through finals, then I still think you're scapegoating.

Brooks never made the AFL. Knobel walked - guess what we had to spend resources to fill a void. Ackland - who also walked... and left a hole that we've scrambled to fill. These are really your examples of why we wouldn't miss Koschitzke? All 3 are much worse than Kosi, and bar Brooks, we'd have been better if the other 2 hadn't walked.

No player is untouchable - but seriously, you've got to have something in mind better than punisishing them for not fulfilling your hopes to unload someone.

MAte, you've accused posters of scapegoating, and given that I've participated in this thread, that will include me as well.

Now take a deep breath and relax and read it properly without the hysterical reactions...

I haven't said that he should be traded for just anything. In fact, I don't know what we'd get for him... In fact, for all I know, the club will keep him.

But the bottom line is that yesterday's game showed just how far we are off the pace if we want a flag. In which case, some tough decisions will have to be made at years end.

In doing so, you have a responsibility to review all players and their worth to the team.

As a club, you also need to look at the longer term, and examine which kids you can develop, and where your deficiencies are within your list.

Then you look at what's available in the draft, as well as trade week.

On that basis, you make informed decisions. As this thread was about Kosi, I can only voice my "no nothing" opinion on Kosi...

And that remains that in view of the above, if a trade opportunity exists that will better the club, and includes Kosi, then it should be looked at.

Same goes (and I repeat) the same goes for any player on the list.

Can't spell it out any clearer. If you disagree, then that's your perogative, but don't point the finger.

[jay young]

I have had heated arguments over kossie xclarke and ball since 04 the club should of traded them back then . the best players yest were jones and gilbert i cant believe s fisher was our best he was that slow and scared so was hayes( tortoise) . For club punnishment ( and certainly not his) this team doesnt deserve rob harvey to line up for them next week. Hes been too good for this club. Next year we should be called St Kilda Football Team not club Team all in effort none of this skeezed out scared stuff Geelong players had wry smiles on thier faces yesterday

[Quixote]

Have read the first post and decided not to read anymore.

Kosi rucked well today - used his body well at the stoppages.

When he was playing DEEP forward, the ball barely even got to him. Was wasting away in the square.

How can you possibly blame HIM?

Anyone notice Dal Santo's game??

[fonz_#15]

Anyone notice Dal Santo's game??

i choose to let dal santo go because it only results in ridicule if you say a bad thing about him.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Read my previous posts on Kosi u tool. Have defended him to the hilt.

Yes there were far worse players than him today. But he's the type that should lift with all his upside and potential, and the money he earns.

If Gwilt has a bad game, you can accept it coz what you see is what you get. Kosi is a different case IMO.

Finals are a stage where the cream rises to the top... he didn't. simple.

As much as I want all of our players to do well, you still gotta look at the big picture.

Just coz he's tall means jack. Brooks was tall, so was Ackland... and Knobel.

If you can't make him a useful part of the structure, then you'd have to consider a trade.

No player is untouchable, and the same goes for everyone on our list.

So don't accuse me of scapegoating. I've been consistant in my defence of players during my short time on this forum.

I haven't read all your previous posts? Gee, silly me, my records trying to keep track of WJ42s thoughts must be off.

If you want to look at the big picture, try actually doing it - the post I responded to was little more than kneejerk rhetoric. You pretty much say it above - your problem with Kosi is that he didn't rise to the top.

If a player dissapoints your expectations once, shame on them. They do it twice, shame on you. If you're expecting Kosi to carry this team through finals, then wake the F up.

If you want to trade him because he's not carrying us through finals, then I still think you're scapegoating.

Brooks never made the AFL. Knobel walked - guess what we had to spend resources to fill a void. Ackland - who also walked... and left a hole that we've scrambled to fill. These are really your examples of why we wouldn't miss Koschitzke? All 3 are much worse than Kosi, and bar Brooks, we'd have been better if the other 2 hadn't walked.

No player is untouchable - but seriously, you've got to have something in mind better than punisishing them for not fulfilling your hopes to unload someone.

MAte, you've accused posters of scapegoating, and given that I've participated in this thread, that will include me as well.

Now take a deep breath and relax and read it properly without the hysterical reactions...

I haven't said that he should be traded for just anything. In fact, I don't know what we'd get for him... In fact, for all I know, the club will keep him.

But the bottom line is that yesterday's game showed just how far we are off the pace if we want a flag. In which case, some tough decisions will have to be made at years end.

In doing so, you have a responsibility to review all players and their worth to the team.

As a club, you also need to look at the longer term, and examine which kids you can develop, and where your deficiencies are within your list.

Then you look at what's available in the draft, as well as trade week.

On that basis, you make informed decisions. As this thread was about Kosi, I can only voice my "no nothing" opinion on Kosi...

And that remains that in view of the above, if a trade opportunity exists that will better the club, and includes Kosi, then it should be looked at.

Same goes (and I repeat) the same goes for any player on the list.

Can't spell it out any clearer. If you disagree, then that's your perogative, but don't point the finger.

I take on board your ironic suggestion that I calm down while posting. Rest assured that all comments made within the text you're reading now are made with a nice low heartrate, and that I never click reply until I've read a post in full and had a think - and in full recognition that the moment I click send, I'm every bit as much an internet crazy as everyone else; look ma, I'm on the interweb! When I plant my tongue in my cheek and make sarcastic comments, I'm doing it entirely deliberately.

Disclaimer aside, I'm absolutely saying people are scapegoating. In fact, I'm absolutely saying you are scapegoating (and it really is due to what you've posted, not my blood pressure). Previous posting record defending a player actually drives my opinion in that direction.

List management and long term views are very nice rhetoric, but as I've said, it doesn't ring true when suddenly (in the case of some including yourself) applied to a player who's game really met with the standard they've delivered all year (and had little to do with the aspects that drove the game), and the opinion becomes the player needs to be moved (or even we need to specifically look at moving the player). It certainly rings false in the case of others (and by others I mean not you) who have consistently called for him to be traded on the basis that he's not a superstar.

While on the subject of list management and long term views, there might be value to the salary argument plugger keeps putting forward, but it's entirely speculative - we don't know a) his salary, b) the team's cap position, and c) how that position's impacting decision making. Until we have a view of (c), it's a bit rich for us to make suppositions and suggestions relating it to (a).

I entirely agree with the idea that every player needs to be reviewed. If the right trade came along, there is NO player I wouldn't wave goodbye to - the only guy I've got any emotional attachment to is Harves and he's retiring. But there's a BIG difference between looking at a guy constructively, and deciding that "there's no place for him in a premiership team, but there is a place for a gun mid or a KPP back". That line writes of Kosi's value, demands a gun to take his place, and certainly seems to imply that Kosi is the guy in the way of us having that gun - and making him the scapegoat for yesterdays loss, in a thread already targetted in that direction.

The hard truth is that Kosi has very little to do with why the Saints weren't good enough yesterday. We lost because they were MUCH better at the contested ball, MUCH better at applying pressure, and MUCH more effective in their ball use. If we're really deciding that yesterday's performance is indicative of the best the current Saints can do against Geelong, there are much harder decisions to be made than whether Kosi can contibute to an eventual, hypothetical premiership team.

FWIW, I'm dissapointed in the difference between what Kosi seemed to promise early in his career and what's eventuated, but I'm far down the path of accepting that. I don't want to keep him for what he might be - I want people to start acknowledging that within his role, he's a GOP who adds value. If we get offered the moon in a trade, absolutely go for it, but to suggest aggressively shopping him (and you're dancing around it, but that's certainly the tone of your posts) is (in my view) either scapegoating ("he's dissapointed me, get rid of him"), or naive ("he's a GOP, but we'll get a gun for him")... or entirely speculative ("we need to free up cap space").

I assume you've got a fourth position (you're pretty adamant about not scapegoating, so while that's certainly how I read it, I'm not calling you a liar), so if you'd like to tell me you've been representing that all along, go right ahead - if you start the post without namecalling and condescension, we can make it a civilised discussion, or we can continue in this vein... my blood pressure's fine, and I'm nice and calm this morning.

[WayneJudson42]

Read my previous posts on Kosi u tool. Have defended him to the hilt.

Yes there were far worse players than him today. But he's the type that should lift with all his upside and potential, and the money he earns.

If Gwilt has a bad game, you can accept it coz what you see is what you get. Kosi is a different case IMO.

Finals are a stage where the cream rises to the top... he didn't. simple.

As much as I want all of our players to do well, you still gotta look at the big picture.

Just coz he's tall means jack. Brooks was tall, so was Ackland... and Knobel.

If you can't make him a useful part of the structure, then you'd have to consider a trade.

No player is untouchable, and the same goes for everyone on our list.

So don't accuse me of scapegoating. I've been consistant in my defence of players during my short time on this forum.

I haven't read all your previous posts? Gee, silly me, my records trying to keep track of WJ42s thoughts must be off.

If you want to look at the big picture, try actually doing it - the post I responded to was little more than kneejerk rhetoric. You pretty much say it above - your problem with Kosi is that he didn't rise to the top.

If a player dissapoints your expectations once, shame on them. They do it twice, shame on you. If you're expecting Kosi to carry this team through finals, then wake the F up.

If you want to trade him because he's not carrying us through finals, then I still think you're scapegoating.

Brooks never made the AFL. Knobel walked - guess what we had to spend resources to fill a void. Ackland - who also walked... and left a hole that we've scrambled to fill. These are really your examples of why we wouldn't miss Koschitzke? All 3 are much worse than Kosi, and bar Brooks, we'd have been better if the other 2 hadn't walked.

No player is untouchable - but seriously, you've got to have something in mind better than punisishing them for not fulfilling your hopes to unload someone.

MAte, you've accused posters of scapegoating, and given that I've participated in this thread, that will include me as well.

Now take a deep breath and relax and read it properly without the hysterical reactions...

I haven't said that he should be traded for just anything. In fact, I don't know what we'd get for him... In fact, for all I know, the club will keep him.

But the bottom line is that yesterday's game showed just how far we are off the pace if we want a flag. In which case, some tough decisions will have to be made at years end.

In doing so, you have a responsibility to review all players and their worth to the team.

As a club, you also need to look at the longer term, and examine which kids you can develop, and where your deficiencies are within your list.

Then you look at what's available in the draft, as well as trade week.

On that basis, you make informed decisions. As this thread was about Kosi, I can only voice my "no nothing" opinion on Kosi...

And that remains that in view of the above, if a trade opportunity exists that will better the club, and includes Kosi, then it should be looked at.

Same goes (and I repeat) the same goes for any player on the list.

Can't spell it out any clearer. If you disagree, then that's your perogative, but don't point the finger.

I take on board your ironic suggestion that I calm down while posting. Rest assured that all comments made within the text you're reading now are made with a nice low heartrate, and that I never click reply until I've read a post in full and had a think - and in full recognition that the moment I click send, I'm every bit as much an internet crazy as everyone else; look ma, I'm on the interweb! When I plant my tongue in my cheek and make sarcastic comments, I'm doing it entirely deliberately.

Disclaimer aside, I'm absolutely saying people are scapegoating. In fact, I'm absolutely saying you are scapegoating (and it really is due to what you've posted, not my blood pressure). Previous posting record defending a player actually drives my opinion in that direction.

List management and long term views are very nice rhetoric, but as I've said, it doesn't ring true when suddenly (in the case of some including yourself) applied to a player who's game really met with the standard they've delivered all year (and had little to do with the aspects that drove the game), and the opinion becomes the player needs to be moved (or even we need to specifically look at moving the player). It certainly rings false in the case of others (and by others I mean not you) who have consistently called for him to be traded on the basis that he's not a superstar.

While on the subject of list management and long term views, there might be value to the salary argument plugger keeps putting forward, but it's entirely speculative - we don't know a) his salary, b) the team's cap position, and c) how that position's impacting decision making. Until we have a view of (c), it's a bit rich for us to make suppositions and suggestions relating it to (a).

I entirely agree with the idea that every player needs to be reviewed. If the right trade came along, there is NO player I wouldn't wave goodbye to - the only guy I've got any emotional attachment to is Harves and he's retiring. But there's a BIG difference between looking at a guy constructively, and deciding that "there's no place for him in a premiership team, but there is a place for a gun mid or a KPP back". That line writes of Kosi's value, demands a gun to take his place, and certainly seems to imply that Kosi is the guy in the way of us having that gun - and making him the scapegoat for yesterdays loss, in a thread already targetted in that direction.

The hard truth is that Kosi has very little to do with why the Saints weren't good enough yesterday. We lost because they were MUCH better at the contested ball, MUCH better at applying pressure, and MUCH more effective in their ball use. If we're really deciding that yesterday's performance is indicative of the best the current Saints can do against Geelong, there are much harder decisions to be made than whether Kosi can contibute to an eventual, hypothetical premiership team.

FWIW, I'm dissapointed in the difference between what Kosi seemed to promise early in his career and what's eventuated, but I'm far down the path of accepting that. I don't want to keep him for what he might be - I want people to start acknowledging that within his role, he's a GOP who adds value. If we get offered the moon in a trade, absolutely go for it, but to suggest aggressively shopping him (and you're dancing around it, but that's certainly the tone of your posts) is (in my view) either scapegoating ("he's dissapointed me, get rid of him"), or naive ("he's a GOP, but we'll get a gun for him")... or entirely speculative ("we need to free up cap space").

I assume you've got a fourth position (you're pretty adamant about not scapegoating, so while that's certainly how I read it, I'm not calling you a liar), so if you'd like to tell me you've been representing that all along, go right ahead - if you start the post without namecalling and condescension, we can make it a civilised discussion, or we can continue in this vein... my blood pressure's fine, and I'm nice and calm this morning.

1- don't think I've blamed him for yesterdays loss. Yesterday showed how far we are away.

2- have always stated in regards to Dal and Kosi, that any trade would have to be of greater value to the club.

3- I agree with you that he hasn't delivered on his promise as yet. And I stand by my thoughts that finals would be a great opp to prove the doubters (incl me) wrong.

4- Assuming we accept that he will only ever be a GOP tall and not the superstar we had hoped for... then you still need to consider if we can afford the luxury of having such a player in your team V what you can get in return.

5- In previous threads about Kosi and Dal, I stated my position clearly that if he is injured, then he should be allowed another solid preseason to get himself right.

In fact, I also stated that given his run with injuries, and the ensuing hinderence to his development, Kosi is a 25yo body at the 20yo development phase football wise. He even said words to that effect.

6- Has my view changed? Probably. Given yesterday's result, we need to really pull our finger out listwise. If he goes, so be it. If he stays, then I'll continually support him, as I do every player... including Fiora.

Simple, really. Call me what you want, and judge me as you wish. I can't be any clearer than that.

[St. Luke]

My impression is that Kosi is clearly a moody player who is jealous of living in Roo’s shadow! I’m so tired of all the inaction shown by a player with such massive potential. You don’t get a Rising Star for nothing! When’s he going to step up???

[WayneJudson42]

Ok, I know this will cause some debate, but I for one, would trade Kosi for Kerr. Why? well, when you take the emotion out of it, Kosi really has failed to live up to expectation (outside of a handful of games). He still has the word "potential" looming over his head, and whilst he does, maybe valuable to a club like West Coast who are desperate for a key forward. If Jarryd Allen keeps developing as a key forward he can fill the breach in our forward line, and hopefully Ben McEvoy will become the ruckman that we so desperately need. It was obvious throughout the year that we just don't have enough midfielders to match it with the elite teams.

This probably sums up my view about keeping all options open

[ctqs]

Kosi could be doing so much but is delivering so little.

Two incidents today.
Milne and Riewoldt both had long range shots on goal.
Both fell just short.

Both times Kosi was in the square.
Both times he just watched.
Offered no attempt to mark
Offered no attempt to shepherd.

Results ?
One uncontested Geel mark on the line and one touched on the line point.

He gave us nothing today.

That peed me off no end. There was no excuse for showing such a lack of effort and teamwork. I wonder if Melbourne would be silly enough to give us its first pick for him?

[jk23]

I noticed at the game yesterday towards the end of the last qtr Kosi got the ball and SAINT supporters boo'd him.. disgusting from our own supporters, first time I have seen it , hope it the last, I could not believe it!!!

[hotdish]

I haven't read this thread but its simple:

Play Kossi as Forward all game, and play King plus an additional ruck [even if Blake rucks...]

[SaintPM]

Some people must have nothing better to do than beat up on our own players. What happened to strength through loyalty or as one we stand together. I'm sick of going to the football and hearing supposed saint supporters booing and bad mouthing our players....wake up people if you ain't with em......go support another team...we don't need supporters like you.

Leave Kosi alone.

[chook23]

Some people must have nothing better to do than beat up on our own players. What happened to strength through loyalty or as one we stand together. I'm sick of going to the football and hearing supposed saint supporters booing and bad mouthing our players....wake up people if you ain't with em......go support another team...we don't need supporters like you.

Leave Kosi alone.

Don't agree with the booing

BUT he(every player) is not immune to having their game imput put under the microscope....
run out of patience with him

just deliver like a well paid afl footballer should......

has not done that enough

[saintsRrising]

By any measure Kosi has not had a good year...even if we discount him being over-rated by Saints fans.

He just appears way too casual at present...and during the Cat's game his disposal by hand and foot was poor.

[Saints by 100]

I agree that Wayne J has supported Kosi, for wayyy too long for mine, and to back that up by expressing his faith in Fiora, shows his football smarts.
its not a glee club here, nor a scaoegoat site. Its a site to express opinions and disappointments and encorage, complain, discuss etc.
If you were happy with yesterdays performance and keeping all the lower 22 bums on the list, heaven help us.

[clarky449]

I would keep Kosi for next year and see how he goes if he dosent deliver well trade him. He has been in the game for a long time now and should be showing some good form consistently but time after time we see him have a shocker. We cant protect him and say leave him alone because this happens time after time and we should'nt be paying him so much money

[WayneJudson42]

I agree that Wayne J has supported Kosi, for wayyy too long for mine, and to back that up by expressing his faith in Fiora, shows his football smarts.
its not a glee club here, nor a scaoegoat site. Its a site to express opinions and disappointments and encorage, complain, discuss etc.
If you were happy with yesterdays performance and keeping all the lower 22 bums on the list, heaven help us.

taking the pyss?

My faith in Fiora isn't blind optimism or anything like that. I just believe that whilst we are entitled to evaluate their worth as footballers, there is no need to abuse them on a personal level.

I do not believe in whipping boys either. I am always the optimist when it comes not only to our players, but supporters ridiculous expectations of them.

Nothing would give me more pleasure than to see the 2000 - 2003 recruits win a flag together coz they're all great mates. But being a nice bloke isn't enough in today's game... and never was.

What I witnessed yeaterday was a clinical diplay of team footy where every player (regardless of talent) gave 100% evry time. Something we lack... therefore, decisions will need to be made regardless of who the players are.

To say that keeping Kosi because you don't find many KPP's is silly. Especially if a trade gives you an opp to improve the team overall. That to me says that as a club, we accept mediocrity.

My first wish is that he puts in a big preseason and proves us wrong.

[saintsRrising]

So Big Ben vs Kosi???

[WayneJudson42]

So Big Ben vs Kosi???

2 average ruckman.

1 on a super slary. The other not.

1 can hurt you around the ground, but doesn't do it enough.

1's had 8 moths, the other 8 years?

As a back up to King, I'd go McEvoy. And hope Kosi can find a steady position in our team and kick butt.

[Iceman234]

Kosi has been the biggest disappointment for me so far this year.

Had money on him early for the Coleman this year after just looking at his pre-season fitness and attitude. And recommended him to mates to get on him at the time...

He is the one player I'd love to see come out and destroy the opposition for the next 3 games.

Get your head right Kosi and show us all what you can do on the big stage.

[Griggsy]

whoever boo'd him should be ashamed, i am sure it was no one on here

one more season i think is whats best. He needs a good talking to by the coaches to be honest about where he is at, with a big preseason. Have him playing a steady role next year, dont chuck him every which way.

Personally i think he would have been a star at some other clubs. Give him some more time under Ross, Kosi has the potential no doubt, Its Ross' job to get that out of him, otherwise he is better elsewhere, not just for the saints but for himself.

[matrix]

everyone gave him the bronx cheer when he got a disposal off (i think it was a kick) down the end i was sitting.

didnt really hear any booing....

is he carry injuries?
is it getting too hard and the expectations weighing down on him too much?


i dont know what it is...but he isnt going as well as he would like i can bet that.

[SainterK]

Did anyone think that maybe Kosi wants to be traded, it hit me last night that this could be the case? Anyways, if this is not the case and he just didn't have a great year, I for one think we can't go wrong giving him another go.

Obviously we had our eggs in the G-Train basket during the preseason, I don't think anyone anticipated that this plan would have gone horribly wrong so quickly. This isn't making excuses, it just the plain facts....

Give him the opportunity to do just one preseason as a forward....he can take a great contested mark and kick a goal.

[Bernard Shakey]

He already did a full pre season this year.

Was great in the NAB Cup, has done nothing since.

Time to move on.