FRANKSTON DEAL NOT DONE YET

[SENsei]

Anyone seen Archie's responses today on Saint Central in answer to Elsternwick Park queries?

Paraphrasing: In light of the recent offer by Frankston Council, we will now go back to consider our options. But now we focus fully on the finals.





Spin?

The whole thing has pretty much fallen over, reading between the lines.

Keystone Cops.

[casey scorp]

Not really misinformed. I know they have strtuck a deal with Collingwood that they will share Goschs paddock which is right next to their new training facility when it gets built. Why would they have admin, weights, pool, medical, change rooms etc in Richmond and then jump in there cars and train at Casey?

MFC will be moving into the MRS in 2010, and will use Gosch's Paddock for on-field training from then.

Prior to that, MFC's football department will use Casey Fields for pre-season training, go back to the Junction Oval when the 2008/09 cricket season finishes, and then move back out to Casey Fields once the pavilion extension is completed in mid-2009.

After the permanent move into the MRS in mid-2010, MFC will use Casey Fields as a summer training base, and for in-season training once/fortnight, for the next 30 years. MFC is committed to a community program in Casey. They will establish a footprint over a growth area through a close relationship with the Casey Council and the community program and probably through an alignment with the Casey Scorpions if all of the pieces fall into place.

This is the relationship (and potential membership boost) which could have been ours.

[plugger66]

Not really misinformed. I know they have strtuck a deal with Collingwood that they will share Goschs paddock which is right next to their new training facility when it gets built. Why would they have admin, weights, pool, medical, change rooms etc in Richmond and then jump in there cars and train at Casey?

MFC will be moving into the MRS in 2010, and will use Gosch's Paddock for on-field training from then.

Prior to that, MFC's football department will use Casey Fields for pre-season training, go back to the Junction Oval when the 2008/09 cricket season finishes, and then move back out to Casey Fields once the pavilion extension is completed in mid-2009.

After the permanent move into the MRS in mid-2010, MFC will use Casey Fields as a summer training base, and for in-season training once/fortnight, for the next 30 years. MFC is committed to a community program in Casey. They will establish a footprint over a growth area through a close relationship with the Casey Council and the community program and probably through an alignment with the Casey Scorpions if all of the pieces fall into place.

This is the relationship (and potential membership boost) which could have been ours.

Yes I can see you have got over it. Well done.

[bobmurray]

Not really misinformed. I know they have strtuck a deal with Collingwood that they will share Goschs paddock which is right next to their new training facility when it gets built. Why would they have admin, weights, pool, medical, change rooms etc in Richmond and then jump in there cars and train at Casey?

MFC will be moving into the MRS in 2010, and will use Gosch's Paddock for on-field training from then.

Prior to that, MFC's football department will use Casey Fields for pre-season training, go back to the Junction Oval when the 2008/09 cricket season finishes, and then move back out to Casey Fields once the pavilion extension is completed in mid-2009.

After the permanent move into the MRS in mid-2010, MFC will use Casey Fields as a summer training base, and for in-season training once/fortnight, for the next 30 years. MFC is committed to a community program in Casey. They will establish a footprint over a growth area through a close relationship with the Casey Council and the community program and probably through an alignment with the Casey Scorpions if all of the pieces fall into place.

This is the relationship (and potential membership boost) which could have been ours.

Yes I can see you have got over it. Well done.

I don't think it has anything to do with getting over Melbourne ending up at Casey,it's more that Melbourne got something done,the Saints will still be still talking about getting an elite training facility in 2009 whilst still using the antiquated facilities at Moorabbin...

What real benefits does a team get from an Elite training facility anyway..

Collingwood has the much bragged about Lexus Centre and finished outside the top 4 whilst StKilda has the Moorabbin dung heap and finished 4th,how do you measure the benefits,it's not on the field it seems.....

[St Fidelius]

I don't think it has anything to do with getting over Melbourne ending up at Casey,it's more that Melbourne got something done,the Saints will still be still talking about getting an elite training facility in 2009 whilst still using the antiquated facilities at Moorabbin...

What real benefits does a team get from an Elite training facility anyway..

Collingwood has the much bragged about Lexus Centre and finished outside the top 4 whilst StKilda has the Moorabbin dung heap and finished 4th,how do you measure the benefits,it's not on the field it seems.....

Surely you are kidding???

To have an Elite training facility has no real benefits???

So you are comparing Collingwoods facilities with us and deem that to be a comparison to where we finished on the ladder to them??

FAIR DINKUM

[Bernard Shakey]

So, what are the benefits, St Fid.

For that matter what exactly is an elite training facility?

[bobmurray]

I don't think it has anything to do with getting over Melbourne ending up at Casey,it's more that Melbourne got something done,the Saints will still be still talking about getting an elite training facility in 2009 whilst still using the antiquated facilities at Moorabbin...

What real benefits does a team get from an Elite training facility anyway..

Collingwood has the much bragged about Lexus Centre and finished outside the top 4 whilst StKilda has the Moorabbin dung heap and finished 4th,how do you measure the benefits,it's not on the field it seems.....

Surely you are kidding???

To have an Elite training facility has no real benefits???

So you are comparing Collingwoods facilities with us and deem that to be a comparison to where we finished on the ladder to them??

FAIR DINKUM

You haven't answered anything with your reply,i effectively wanted someone to tell me how you measure the benefits of such a facility and i used Collingwood as an example and where they are concerned it hasn't provided any real benefit other than player comfort and maybe that introduces a whole new set of problems....

FAIR DINKUM

[St Fidelius]

I don't think it has anything to do with getting over Melbourne ending up at Casey,it's more that Melbourne got something done,the Saints will still be still talking about getting an elite training facility in 2009 whilst still using the antiquated facilities at Moorabbin...

What real benefits does a team get from an Elite training facility anyway..

Collingwood has the much bragged about Lexus Centre and finished outside the top 4 whilst StKilda has the Moorabbin dung heap and finished 4th,how do you measure the benefits,it's not on the field it seems.....

Surely you are kidding???

To have an Elite training facility has no real benefits???

So you are comparing Collingwoods facilities with us and deem that to be a comparison to where we finished on the ladder to them??

FAIR DINKUM

You haven't answered anything with your reply,i effectively wanted someone to tell me how you measure the benefits of such a facility and i used Collingwood as an example and where they are concerned it hasn't provided any real benefit other than player comfort and maybe that introduces a whole new set of problems....

FAIR DINKUM

I really don't know just where you are coming from with your post...

Are you saying that having an elite training environment causes new problems??


You comparing us finishing on top of Collingwood as an example IMO was poor....


They have probably the best gym equipment available and more of them and have a lap pool...

This would mean less time waiting to use equipment and more time to do other drills...


Are you suggesting that our "Moorabbin dung heap" and we finished above Collingwood's elite facilities means something???

To have better training facilities has to have a far better advantage to a club that has less, gee isn't that obvious??

The position of sides ladder in the ladder is irrelevant if you have injuries and suspension issues compared to training facilities

[St Fidelius]

The other issue is Archie Fraser.....

The deal with the Kingston council fell over because of him...

Correct me if I am wrong here, but wasn't because of the pokies???

What deal has been done with the Frankston Council on this issue???

Get rid of Archie Fraser and re start negotiations with the Kingston Council IMO...

Get the Moorabbin Plan on track

[Otiman]

Reading between the lines, they're shelving the Frankston idea.

Our biggest problem is that we are relying on council funding for the works to go ahead.

I'd love to be able to do it on our own steam.

[St Fidelius]

This is our home....

http://business.kingston.vic.gov.au/fil ... dsheet.pdf

P1ss off Archie Fraser and re start negotiations ...

Just a re cap on this Archie Fraser's decision.....

ST KILDA has decided to walk out of its 42-year home at Moorabbin after another breakdown with the local council over plans to redevelop the precinct.
Saints chief executive Archie Fraser yesterday told the Herald Sun a proposed $10.5 million revamp of Moorabbin would be abandoned.

"We're gone, we're out of here," Fraser said.

"This is not about an article to get some press to patch it up, this is over.

"And, in all reality, it is not our decision. We are the victims of a council backdown.

"It's a tragic day."

St Kilda will now assess new bases, with options in City of Port Phillip, believed to be TEAC Oval in Port Melbourne, and City of Casey (Casey Fields in Cranbourne) to be considered.

"Tomorrow we clean the whiteboard and we will work towards getting the guys into a world-class facility by the start of 2009," Fraser said.

"It will probably be easier because we will find a willing partner. We will cast the web wide and we will still make it happen, make no question about that."

The $10.5 million upgrade of the Saints' Moorabbin base, which was to have provided for community involvement, was to have been footed by the AFL ($2.55 million), the State Government ($3.45 million), Kingston Council ($2.5 million) and the Saints ($2 million).

St Kilda believes the contributions from the AFL and State Government are transportable.

AFL major projects manager Simon Gorr, who has worked closely on the Moorabbin redevelopment plans, said he supported the Saints.

"We're very disappointed the deal, as everyone understood it, has fallen over," Gorr said.

"Everyone has put in an enormous amount of work, including officers from the council, St Kilda footy club, ourselves and the State Government. We certainly support St Kilda's view that this is the right call for them."

The Moorabbin redevelopment was always dependent on City of Kingston approving the transfer of the club's 83 poker machines about 200m from Linton St to busy South Rd.

In a meeting on Monday night, the council refused to endorse the pokies transfer, instead referring the matter to the Victorian Commission for Gaming Regulation, a procedural requirement St Kilda will not pursue.

The council resoundingly voted to "strongly support a reduction in the number of gaming machines".

Had the transfer been approved, St Kilda would have paid the council $2.1 million for land on South Rd, which would have been used for a new $6 million social club base and as security to ensure the $10.5 million redevelopment proceeded.

"The club has met all council process requirements, only for the council to make a political decision with respect to gaming machine numbers," Fraser said.

"We've been here since '65, we were based here when we won the premiership (1966), but last night was the last straw.

"The (St Kilda) board has been more than tolerant and we have been patient to the nth degree in trying to pull this thing off. This council is too difficult to work with and we have no choice."

Fraser said the Saints had wasted more than $300,000 preparing for the Moorabbin redevelopment.

"The deal has been scuttled, completely scuttled, by the council as of last night," said Fraser, who requested official council responses on the pokies transfer in November.

"We have been extremely patient all the way through here, but they have made a statement that they don't want to support us in the fundamental thing that underpins the whole economics of this.

"We have had four years of working through this with council."

City of Kingston chief executive officer John Nevins did not return the Herald Sun's calls.

Thirty years remains on the Saints' lease at Moorabbin, which was used as an VFL-AFL venue in 254 matches between 1965-92.

"We won't be walking away from the lease. We will maintain our social club/gaming venue and train here maybe once a month," Fraser said.

"Unfortunately, it means there will be a separation in the history of the St Kilda Football Club."

F*** this clown off IMO

[Mr Magic]

I'm sure we've ben through this before.
The development deal at Moorabbin was dependant on the revenue from the pokies. We were going to invest $2.2 million and we needed the pokies to fund that. The City of Kingston refused to support the transferring of our ppokies from the current Social Club to teh new one (200 metres down Linton Street).
As such, that particular development deal is all over.

The CLub has an exisiting lease at its current location and believes it can operate the Social CLub, and its pokies, for the length of this lease.

The proposed development at Frankston did not have any pokies attached to it, and as such was purely a training/admin venue. It also didn't require the Club to tip in $2.2 million dollars, as Frankston were 'giving' the Saints the land to build their facility (unlike Kingston who were 'selling' us the land).

[Pilgram]

Since the original budget allocations towards the Moorabbin redevelopment project (which had to cover the costs of grandstand removal) the State Govt has thrown in an additional $500,000 specifically for removal of the old grandstand.

Casey Council's contribution would have been $3-$4 million, and that was without any serious discussion. With an annual budget of $190 million, including a capital works program of $40-$50 million, serious discussions may well have resulted in a considerably greater offer (noting that the Council is contributing about $1.5 million to a temporary relocation of just Melbourne's football department - imagine what the Council would have stumped up for a permanent relocation of a full club operation).

gobshyte from you casey scorp as per usual.
are you sure that you aren't an utterly worthless collingwood supporter?

[casey scorp]

The Kingston Council was selling us the South Road site for $2.1 million, and we were going to build a $6 million social club on it. This required $8.1 million from the club, which was to be borrowed and financed by poker machine revenue.

The training and admin complex ($8.4 million) was to be funded:

• $2.55 million (AFL)
• $3.45 million (State Government)
• $2.4 Million (Kingston Council)

This is where smoke and mirrors comes into play. Where was the Council contribution coming from? It was mostly coming from the $2.1 million the Council was paying for the land, which was funded by club borrowings which was to be financed by poker machine revenue. If the poker machine revenue was not adequate, then the whole deal fell over. The club believed that adequate poker machine revenue could not be generated unless the more prominent South Road site was developed, and all 83 of the poker machines were transferred.

There is a bit of rubberiness about the publicly available figures, which you would expect given the spin, and the smoke and mirrors, which was involved.

The club’s lease at Moorabbin runs for another 31 years. Whether the club can continue to occupy the land under the terms of the lease if it moves its football operations to another venue is a matter of some dispute. It may become a matter for the courts.

The final paragraph of Mr Magic's post above is a bit misleading, in that it is comparing apples with oranges. The land at Moorabbin we had to “buyâ€

[casey scorp]

Since the original budget allocations towards the Moorabbin redevelopment project (which had to cover the costs of grandstand removal) the State Govt has thrown in an additional $500,000 specifically for removal of the old grandstand.

Casey Council's contribution would have been $3-$4 million, and that was without any serious discussion. With an annual budget of $190 million, including a capital works program of $40-$50 million, serious discussions may well have resulted in a considerably greater offer (noting that the Council is contributing about $1.5 million to a temporary relocation of just Melbourne's football department - imagine what the Council would have stumped up for a permanent relocation of a full club operation).

gobshyte from you casey scorp as per usual.
are you sure that you aren't an utterly worthless collingwood supporter?

I can't follow your logic, but I guess you think there is some.

[SAINTLY73]

After 24 pages of innuedo and people quoting badly written articles by lazy journalists on the web, there needs to be some clarification regarding some points regarding the Moorabbin development falling over from an inside source.

-Council would not gives its approval for the much loved 8 poker machines because it was a conflict of interest. The gaming regulator (who would make this decision not council) would see this approval as conflicting with the fact council was selling the land for 2mil. Council passed the buck because it had to.

-Council had placed two clauses in the contract. First right to purchase back from the club and one relating to the zoning and value of the property. This would allowed council to have first option in purchasing the property back if the football club put the property was put up for sale. The saints at this stage were already looking at suitable suitors for the property. Businesses to purchase the property at an inflated price due to the land being rezoned prior to purchase. The saints would have made a profit, had a place for the poker machines and some money for the redevelopment. Fact is StKilda FC is flat broke hence the reliance on handouts.

-Directors had been informed of their personal liability if this fell over and the costs of a failed bid for the land on South Road fell through. The poker machines were one major hundle due to State legislation and planning was another. Directors pulled the pin because of this.

-All the ugly press and jumping up and down blaming the council has lost every single contact and coonection the club had in there. The building report commissioned was a way of council covering itself from what happened at Vic Park. The club taking the council to the Supreme Court was defitnely a wrong move (Pulled out after the first day). Tens of thousands the club could not afford against a council with unlimited resources. Still going to the building commission anyway. This could potentially bankrupt the club alone.

I agree, Moorabbin is definitely the place to redevelop but would need to be completely scaled down and all those at fault kicked out of the club and thats includes those stupid consultants who didn't do their sums right about Frankston. The problem is Footy First are pretty much the same as the previous mob.

By the way, the pokies will have to go if the club doesn't use the Linton St as its main admin and training centre.

[bigmicka]

Is Casey Fields about 1.5k away from the Methane gas problems?

mic

[spert]

I think anyone doing business with Kingston City council would be frustrated -they have a poor history

[st48]

Please dont mistake people apparently talking sensibly with people who actually know what they are talking about.
To think that we know what the exact ins and outs of the dealings is completely dillusional. Reporters dont know and people with specific agendas blur the facts.
The fact is that we are not in a position to fund the whole thing ourselves and therfore have to rely on other parties to get it done. If the other parties stuff us around, just like Kingston and Frankston have done, we have to cop it. We are not in a position to tell them to get stuffed and do it ourselves. And anyone who thinks that we do not need to upgrade our facilities is completely dillusional. Try attracting players to a club with facilities that are crap.
If a council says we will give you $4mil and then has another meeting and says we are only going to give you $3mil we cant just say ok. We cant just build the thing and have the club carry over 3 to 4 mil worth of debt. If it takes a tad longer to build the thing soi that we dont go into debt then we should take as much time as we need.
Have some faith all you nay sayers.

[GeorgeYoung27]

caseyscorp would love to reply, but he is very busy at the moment.

[Bernard Shakey]

For the sake of 8 one armed bandits, we are probably going to Tassie.

[GeorgeYoung27]

For the sake of 8 one armed bandits, we are probably going to Tassie.

and it's all Kosi's fault.

[Bernard Shakey]

I don't think so!

[zebraman]

Casey Council just may have a bit more on their plate now with the methane problem than the proposed move by Melbourne to Casey Fields

If the reports on 3AW on Friday night are correct. then Casey Counucil will be facing a class action by residents of the Brooklands Green estate

Interesting times ahead in Cranbourne

[casey scorp]

caseyscorp would love to reply, but he is very busy at the moment.

Indeed I have been a bit busy, but thanks for holding the fort for me.

If a council says we will give you $4mil and then has another meeting and says we are only going to give you $3mil we cant just say ok.

I think the reflection on Frankston Council is a bit unreasonable.

My understanding is that the Council promised $3 million right at the outset ($2 million of cash and $1 million of land), and when the club asked the Council to increase it to $3.8 million (I guess that's close enough to $4 million) the Council said no, although it did offer to convert all of its offer to $3 million cash.