Some worrying signs...

[dcstkfc]

[quote="
In the words of the Great Dennis Commetti...

We will go in optimimisticaly... and come out misty-optically?

[/quote]

amen

[meher baba]

The only rounds of the season in which we were actually in the top 4 were round 2 and round 22.

We won 3 out of our 6 games against the sides that finished in 5th-8th spots, which suggests that 4th place ended up being a bit of a lottery.

IMO we lost 3 games that we should have expected to win this year (1 each against the Dogs, Filth and the Eagles). By the way, I reckon we were also played way below par in some of our losses and even in some of our wins: eg, against the Tigers.

So, on the basis of our performances we were extremely lucky to get 4th. On the basis of talent alone, we should have finished 2nd or 3rd (we would have been a clear third if we had won the three games I think we should have won).

Hence my assessment that we were simultaneously fortunate to get, and deserving of, 4th spot.

As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence.

I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.

But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. He is far less defensive and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman, Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc.

All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. On the basis of the team he has selected for Sunday, all the signs are good.

I wish people would stop suggesting that I am not on board. I've been on board for two months now. And I'm staying there.

[casey scorp]

I'm not sure I agree with you WayneJudson42.


We finished 4th by a whisker. In other years, it could have been as low as 8th.

I hope we don't hang our hats on the actual ladder position at year's end - but instead break down the performance on it's merits.

Finishing 4th doesn't neccessarily mean Lyon is a great coach and our list is wonderful.

It means exactly the same as if the umpires didn't overrule the goal that Ryder kicked in the 1st quarter and we were playing in an elimination final tomorrow.


Our performance over the next month will tell us a lot. Much more than tha fact that 'we finished 4th'.

IMO finishing 4th counts for finishing 4th.

Agree. 4th is 4th over 22 rounds - not just the results in the last round, and not directly comparable with previous years.

The fact that it was over 22 rounds, though, means that had we kicked just 2 extra points in each of those other 21 matches we would have only needed to win by about 50 points last weekend.

[saintsRrising]

As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence..

Err...penny drop maybe...think players?????

I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. .

Never?

For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.

But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. .

The No 1 thing he did was DROP Milne and Dal to spell out clearly to the players to jump on with Lyon's gameplan....or don't expect to play senior football.

It worked.

He is far less defensive .

No..our defensive gameplan is the same. Look how we structure up when the opposition win the ball...it is the same.

Our offensive gameplan is being better executed.

and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman,.

Yes Gardiner got injured..came back for one game and was awful...and then he got injured again.

Rix s not up to AFL.

McEvoy is too raw......so WHO else could play second ruck???

Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc..

Throughout Lyon's tenure he has been trying players in various positions.


Some have prospered...some not.

The one change you have correct is that he rarely plays two tags now.

With Raph for example he played him earlier in the year...and he simply was not good enough. He has brought him back again and he has clicked.

Blake has through SOS improved his defensive skills and now mainly plays asa defender.

Lyon said at the start of last year that we needed more run in the midfield and has tried various players there.

He gave Schneider a run there..but it did not work (though Schneider was also injured though...and is fitter now).

Milne was put in the midfield in the second half against the Hawks...and helped turn the game.

All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. .

The style and gameplan is still essentially the same....and thank god he stuck with it. What is different is the execution and the form of the players.


Also you might note that Roo in the first half of the year was carrying two knee injuries and a shoulder injury (he had trouble raising his arms to mark the ball. He is now running fre, leaping higher...and marking at full stretch again. He is now basically fully fit and playing better as a result. A dominant Roo helps a lot in the team playing well.

BJ is also now fully ver his knee and is playing better.

[bobmurray]

The only people who think the Saints can win on Sunday are us optimistic StKilda supporters,all the people i talked to today wondered why i was going on Sunday,why would i bother going to watch a thrashing.....

Most people can't see Geelong being beaten but anything can happen on the day.I think we'll be playing with 17 players because whoever is picked up by Ling may not get many touches.That means the Saints have to negate one of their players and then it will be 17 each.

Whoever plays on Hunt may struggle to get a touch as well if Hunt is on his game,it'll either be Milne or Schneider.I hope Kosi has a blinder and Roo kicks a bag.I also hope that if we get off to a good start we dont waste it on the scoreboard by kicking 4 goals 8 behinds or something similar...

It'll be interesting to see whether Ross wants them to attack or if he tries to contain them,keep the game tight until the last quarter and then see if we can out score them due to our fitness ,but then this is Geelong,they don't necessarily run out of legs either...

Whoever ends up on Scarlett should drag him up the ground a bit and take him out of his comfort zone.I hope the Saints don't turn up with the game or form they brought to the G for the Magpies game.....

[joffaboy]

By any sensible assessment, we are dead lucky to have finished in the top 4

And here we have another one trying to deflect and smokescreen

We finished 4th because we won more games by a higher margin than 12 other teams.

Anything else is purile justification on the part of the anti Lyon tools who demanded he be sacked during the year.

The reason why we look better is because our skills have picked up.

Rounds 19-22 we were No.1 in the League for effective disposal - an absolutely telling stat.

JUST ADMIT YOU GOT IT DEADSET AND HOPELESSLY WRONG ON LYON

and stop all the spin and blather.

You and RodgerFox are fooling nobody with your spin.

Lyon, a pre-season premiership and top four all in his second year, all with a neglected list that he has had to top up while his youngsters mature.

You got it wrong, grow some balls and admit it.

[JeffDunne]

I reckon we were very lucky to finish top 4 when you look at some of our performances, especially early in the season.

However if you look at the other potential top 4 teams then I don't think we were lucky. Can't see any team below us that deserved it more.

The credit to Lyon and the players is for not dropping their bundle when the season seemed lost. We kept working and enter finals in our best form for the year.

Does it really matter now though?

We'll be judged by what happens now and not how we got here.

[joffaboy]

Dont know if we were lucky to make top four, but we will be lucky to beat the Cats once in this finals series let alone twice.

We lose on Sunday and, if good enough, we only meet them if we make the GF.

I can imagine us beating them once but to beat them on Sunday, then again on GF day?

F*** that is one hard task.

[markp]

I reckon we were very lucky to finish top 4 when you look at some of our performances, especially early in the season.

Maybe we were unlucky to have not cemented our spot earlier?

If we had lost 2 more games and missed out on the 8 all together would the Lyon bashers have excused it as 'unlucky'?

To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.

Well done Saints.

[JeffDunne]

The one thing we certainly have in our favour is we won't suffer based on expectation.

When you look at other times we've finished top 4 in the recent past we've gone it with plenty of expectation and plenty of players with big question marks over their fitness.

Maybe I'm losing it but I'm quietly confident because I reckon we can strangle thier attack. Shut them down early, plant the seed of doubt and then capitalise when they start getting frustrated.

[JeffDunne]

To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.

Nonsense.

[markp]

To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.

Nonsense.

From wiki;

Luck (also called fortuity) is a chance happening, or that which happens beyond a person's control.

Were we lucky to beat the bombers by 108 points?

How come it's only the anti-Lyon crew calling it lucky?

[matrix]

lucky my ass.....
geez, how can a 108 point win be luck

[markp]

lucky my ass.....
geez, how can a 108 point win be luck

Or winning 8 of our last freakin 10... how lucky can you get?!

[bigred]

Dont know if we were lucky to make top four, but we will be lucky to beat the Cats once in this finals series let alone twice.

We lose on Sunday and, if good enough, we only meet them if we make the GF.

I can imagine us beating them once but to beat them on Sunday, then again on GF day?

F*** that is one hard task.

Damn straight.


One week at a time

[JeffDunne]

I really wonder sometimes about the motivation if not the intelligence of some that indulge in these "I'm a better supporter" pissing contests.

We were lucky/fotunate/whatever that both Collingwood & North lost games they should have won. Especially North.

If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.

Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?

[WayneJudson42]

The only rounds of the season in which we were actually in the top 4 were round 2 and round 22.

We won 3 out of our 6 games against the sides that finished in 5th-8th spots, which suggests that 4th place ended up being a bit of a lottery.

IMO we lost 3 games that we should have expected to win this year (1 each against the Dogs, Filth and the Eagles). By the way, I reckon we were also played way below par in some of our losses and even in some of our wins: eg, against the Tigers.

So, on the basis of our performances we were extremely lucky to get 4th. On the basis of talent alone, we should have finished 2nd or 3rd (we would have been a clear third if we had won the three games I think we should have won).

Hence my assessment that we were simultaneously fortunate to get, and deserving of, 4th spot.

As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence.

I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.

But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. He is far less defensive and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman, Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc.

All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. On the basis of the team he has selected for Sunday, all the signs are good.

I wish people would stop suggesting that I am not on board. I've been on board for two months now. And I'm staying there.

MB, I know you're onboard, but you're still obsessed about RL's gameplan.

Do you think he'll say "ok fellas... it's been great that we made the finals. now I want you to throw out everything you did to geth there and start palying the style we did in the first half of the year".

Relax dude... smoke the sheesha pipe and chill.

[WayneJudson42]

I reckon we were very lucky to finish top 4 when you look at some of our performances, especially early in the season.

Maybe we were unlucky to have not cemented our spot earlier?

If we had lost 2 more games and missed out on the 8 all together would the Lyon bashers have excused it as 'unlucky'?

To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.

Well done Saints.

Excellent point!

[WayneJudson42]

If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.

Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?

Umm, yeah we were lucky, and therefore the other teams like Pies and Nth were also lucky because by losing games we should have won, then results fell their way... and so on... and so on... pure conjecture JD.

Results fell our way in Rd 22, but then again we still won enough games throughout the season to take 4th, didn't we???

Also, since when was there a minimum number of wins required to earn 4th spot?

We could have done with 10 wins AFAIAC... just shows the eveness of the comp, doesn't it?

And I do mean:

[markp]

I really wonder sometimes about the motivation if not the intelligence of some that indulge in these "I'm a better supporter" pissing contests.

We were lucky/fotunate/whatever that both Collingwood & North lost games they should have won. Especially North.

If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.

Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?

Whose intelligence and motivation do you question?

Who said or implied they were a 'better' supporter than you (and what could that possibly mean?)

To call us finishing in the top 4 'lucky' is 'stupid'.

We deserve to be there.

[saintsRrising]

If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.

Why not equally pluck out another round where other teams lost???

Why not pluck out a round where the Saints lost...and North won?

What counts is the cumulative 22 Rounds...and not any one round.

North knew what was on offer...and did not seize it. North were not unlucky to lose to Port Adelaide. They were awful and got thrashed.

Adelaide however had a slice of luck to win as they were awarded a goal for a behind at a vital stage of the game. Can someone explain why this was lucky for the Saints? Apart from a possible extra 4 points for a win they otherwise may not have had...the extra 5 behinds increased the % we had to get to overhaul them. Why was this lucky for us?

The Saints knew what was on offer and did what was required...

[JeffDunne]

We deserve to be there.

And may I ask . . . who said we don't deserve to be there?

[JeffDunne]

If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.

Why not equally pluck out another round where other teams lost???

Why not pluck out a round where the Saints lost...and North won?

What counts is the cumulative 22 Rounds...and not any one round.

North knew what was on offer...and did not seize it. North were not unlucky to lose to Port Adelaide. They were awful and got thrashed.

Adelaide however had a slice of luck to win as they were awarded a goal for a behind at a vital stage of the game. Can someone explain why this was lucky for the Saints? Apart from a possible extra 4 points for a win they otherwise may not have had...the extra 5 behinds increased the % we had to get to overhaul them. Why was this lucky for us?

The Saints knew what was on offer and did what was required...

So Adelaide were lucky and we weren't?

[saintsRrising]

So Adelaide were lucky and we weren't?

Adelaide gained 5 points for nothing.

Is that not pure luck???

I mean teams win and lose EVERY match. But how often do teams get points they should not? Only rarely.

I watch the North game. they were not unlucky. They were just plain awful and were clearly outplayed.

[markp]

We deserve to be there.

And may I ask . . . who said we don't deserve to be there?

You may....

Nobody.

Who did I accuse of that?