Koschitzke and the ruck

[st.byron]

I always get the impression when reading Kosi threads that people are holding a grudge against him for not developing into a Reiwoldt calibre superstar.

As much as we need to get over that expectation from an excuses perspective, we need to look at what he actually does.

IMO, what he actually does is inconsistently find ways to make a couple of his elite skills (pack marking, contested possessions in tight at ground level, generally good disposal - very good for a big man) count on match day. He's neither quick nor slow, but lacks the burst of speed to be a leading forward, and tends to be a 50/50 proposition in a marking contest against a guy his own size or experienced defender. He's a utility at this stage rather than a ruck or forward... calling him a ruck/forward inspires visions of things he doesn't do, and doesn't credit one of his greatest contributions, where he floats back to mark in defense.

Should we trade him? The questions to ask:
- What kind of hole does it leave (is Blake an option as full time 2nd ruck? What does the removed tall leave in the forward structure)
- What can we get for him, and what's the upside of that return (there's no point trading him if the assett returned doesn't help us in some way)
- Do we think Kosi's value is low or high right now (i.e. is he underperforming - his perceived value is low, driving low return, but given a good 2009 we might get more for him, or is he overhyped meaning another team would give up a lot, and we should trade before otehrs catch on) compared to his value to the team.

It often seems to me that those who are most critical of Kosi believe we'll get a 1st rounder for him - based on season 2008, I can't see it. I can still see enough in the good games he's had to hope for a better 2009. I believe he provides decent value at St Kilda, that wouldn't be filled by any return for him.

I don't believe he'll ever become a superstar for us. I do think that at his worst he's not a liability, so that he's worth persisting with in the hope we can get his best out of him more often.

Really fair and balanced post I reckon Bam. It's exactly what I want to see as well. Reactionary "trade him, he's a dud" arguments are as bloody minded as the, "he's a superstar, he's just about to explode", arguments are tired.
It's a fair question to consider what sort of a hole he'd leave if he left. Having him as a back-up ruck option is of some value, as is his forward presence.
On the down side, he's a consistent underperformer, and I'd be interested to know how much he's paid.
Anyone know how much he's paid and when he's contract expires?
I think it's very unlikely he'll be traded. Lyon has indicated over again that he rates Kosi highly, so it seems unlikely that he'll be on the table.
I consider him to be tradeable, but only for a young gun or a very high draft pick, both of which we're unlikely to get for him at present.
IMO will be kept at year's end and will look to 2009 as the year to become a consistent high quality contributor. Hope he comes good, but I'm not holding my breath.

[To the top]

You really do get some absolute garbage on here.

There is no doubt Kosi is struggling leg wise - and there may be a simple reason in the knee injury he received a few weeks back (limiting him "on the track" and in matches) or it may be more fundamental in that he has not had the benefit of continual work - succesive pre-seasons followed by full seasons.

There is no doubt he is a premier player - he is 197cm and has the build and the ability to be "anything" - as we have seen in the past when he put together that run of 5 games picking up 11 Brownlow votes (and wasn't Roo on the injury list at the time?).

A ruckman he is not. Your ruckmen are the King and M. Gardiner types. Big bodies who can position under the ball and hold their ground in putting the ball to advantage - ruckmen who rely on a jump at the contest can be too easily negated by the big body under the ball.

What is telling against Kosi is the presence of Roo in the forward line because Roo continually presents and demands - and is the first option for the ball carriers.

Kosi, in the forward line, plays in behind that effort by Roo - and compliments Roo.

It is what Kosi contributes to the side, including by dropping back into defence where (if the mids put the right level of pressure on forcing long kick entries to "the spot") he can mark or destroy - and we have seen strong defensive marks and strong spoiling this season.

In the forward line he is an option, sitting closer to the square and letting Roo do the presenting - the value here is that he is an option, and he takes a very good tall defender.

Here he marks or forces the spoil, when he is used as the option.

Against Adelaide it was of interest to me to note Roo back in the defensive "hole" on occasions, and to afford ourselves of that luxury we need options.

It was also of interest that R. Clarke used the ball then proceeded on to the full forward line fading to a pocket - and where Gwilt also provided a strong physical presence. Then there were Milne and Schnieder.

Our forward line was revolving - and that kept pressure on.

Kosi was only part of that because he only had to be part of that.

When coming on from the bench, and we were defending on most occasions when the switch was made, he made space into a back pocket (and a Harvey kick missed him). He never went forward when re-entering the ground - always back, and he was used a few times to advantage as we came out of defence.

He is a very valuable player because he can go forward and back, he can take a strong grab, he can apply a strong spoil and he does add to the TEAM because he takes a quality opponent.

Opposition teams can not risk to do otherwise which means our 3rd option when Kosi actually gets up forward gets someone lesser - as we saw with Gwilt and R. Clarke.

None of those 3 kicked a goal (all missed set shots), but they had the Adelaide defensive structure, normally so well organised, under constant pressure.

And that is what we want.

Because pressure brings goals.

I don't know that some of you look at the team, and what players bring to the team.

The critical comment re Gilbert, R. Clarke, Gram, M. Gardiner and a few others, including Kosi, who all seem to "cop it" here, is well, well wide of the mark and always has been.

And it is most pleasing to see Milne actually working and using his legs, not standing still with his hand in the air.

[Mr Magic]

Didn't he re-sign a new 3 year deal last season along with the 2 Nicks?

[Sobraz]

Wonderful post To the Top...

Kosi's value is a hell of a lot more than mere kicks and marks... you outlined it perfectly, as you did with your point re. Raph, Gilb, Gram etc..

These defences are often labelled as 'excuses' for the failings of the name players by the haters on this forum....

I, like you, see them as added value, in that, what they bring when they're not playing at the optimum... Kosi's added value is enormous..

[st.byron]

[quote="To the top"]You really do get some absolute garbage on here.

There is no doubt Kosi is struggling leg wise - and there may be a simple reason in the knee injury he received a few weeks back (limiting him "on the track" and in matches) or it may be more fundamental in that he has not had the benefit of continual work - succesive pre-seasons followed by full seasons.

There is no doubt he is a premier player - he is 197cm and has the build and the ability to be "anything" - as we have seen in the past when he put together that run of 5 games picking up 11 Brownlow votes......[quote="To the top"]


More excuses. Now he's, "struggling leg wise". And, "what is telling against Kosi is the presence of Roo in the forward line." So he's struggling leg wise and Roo holds him back. Add them to the excuse file. Also, according to your post, "he has the build and the ability to be anything - as we have seen in the past when he put together that run of 5 games picking up 11 Brownlow votes." More living in the past.
Koschitzke's been a 'gunna be' for years now To the Top. I reckon it's garbage to keep on belting on about how he's gunna be this or that.

And there is serious doubt about whether he can be a premier player. There's no doubt he isn't at present and based on his performances to date, he isn't going to be. He's struggling to be a GOP at present.

The rest of your post makes some valid points IMO, about what he offers the team around the ground and his contribution to creating pressure. Agree with you that he's not a ruckman. Not up to it.
You also say he's a valuable player because he can go forward and back and can take a strong grab. Yes he can. But he doesn't do enough. Still tradeable IMO.

[plugger66]

You really do get some absolute garbage on here.

There is no doubt Kosi is struggling leg wise - and there may be a simple reason in the knee injury he received a few weeks back (limiting him "on the track" and in matches) or it may be more fundamental in that he has not had the benefit of continual work - succesive pre-seasons followed by full seasons.

There is no doubt he is a premier player - he is 197cm and has the build and the ability to be "anything" - as we have seen in the past when he put together that run of 5 games picking up 11 Brownlow votes (and wasn't Roo on the injury list at the time?).

A ruckman he is not. Your ruckmen are the King and M. Gardiner types. Big bodies who can position under the ball and hold their ground in putting the ball to advantage - ruckmen who rely on a jump at the contest can be too easily negated by the big body under the ball.

What is telling against Kosi is the presence of Roo in the forward line because Roo continually presents and demands - and is the first option for the ball carriers.

Kosi, in the forward line, plays in behind that effort by Roo - and compliments Roo.

It is what Kosi contributes to the side, including by dropping back into defence where (if the mids put the right level of pressure on forcing long kick entries to "the spot") he can mark or destroy - and we have seen strong defensive marks and strong spoiling this season.

In the forward line he is an option, sitting closer to the square and letting Roo do the presenting - the value here is that he is an option, and he takes a very good tall defender.

Here he marks or forces the spoil, when he is used as the option.

Against Adelaide it was of interest to me to note Roo back in the defensive "hole" on occasions, and to afford ourselves of that luxury we need options.

It was also of interest that R. Clarke used the ball then proceeded on to the full forward line fading to a pocket - and where Gwilt also provided a strong physical presence. Then there were Milne and Schnieder.

Our forward line was revolving - and that kept pressure on.

Kosi was only part of that because he only had to be part of that.

When coming on from the bench, and we were defending on most occasions when the switch was made, he made space into a back pocket (and a Harvey kick missed him). He never went forward when re-entering the ground - always back, and he was used a few times to advantage as we came out of defence.

He is a very valuable player because he can go forward and back, he can take a strong grab, he can apply a strong spoil and he does add to the TEAM because he takes a quality opponent.

Opposition teams can not risk to do otherwise which means our 3rd option when Kosi actually gets up forward gets someone lesser - as we saw with Gwilt and R. Clarke.

None of those 3 kicked a goal (all missed set shots), but they had the Adelaide defensive structure, normally so well organised, under constant pressure.

And that is what we want.

Because pressure brings goals.

I don't know that some of you look at the team, and what players bring to the team.

The critical comment re Gilbert, R. Clarke, Gram, M. Gardiner and a few others, including Kosi, who all seem to "cop it" here, is well, well wide of the mark and always has been.

And it is most pleasing to see Milne actually working and using his legs, not standing still with his hand in the air.

Using a lot of words on Kosi doesnt make him a better player. To me what are saying is he is an overpaid decoy. Tell me what he has done the last 2 years when fit to make him a premier player. I would love him to come good and start earning his keep but if he doesnt in the next couple of weeks we must see if we can get a trade for him. It would be unproffessional not to look for one.

[To the top]

Well St Byron, I have not come to the view that Kosi is having to build core leg strength recently.

It has been a consistent view of mine over a period of a couple years now.

The reason has been quite simple really, he has missed so many pre-seasons and has missed so much of so many seasons.

So the consistent work to build core strength, successive pre-seasons followed by successive seasons has been absent.

There is more to football, or any sport, than just running onto a playing field.

Preparation is everything. When do they start training again after the season finishes? And what does that training entail? Because that is the competition on the park.

It has just looked to me that core strenth is absent because his ability to turn and push off is lacking by just a little - his ability to chase is lacking just a little, seeing him lunge himself at players to disrupt them instead of using his legs to close and disrupt.

Mind you, you can not be too critical because football is a code where players running and bouncing a ball can maintain space on a chasing player - and we see that every week.

So by chasing and not closing a gap Koschitzke is not alone.

Plus he is 197cm, so you do not expect him to be a fleet footed 182cm player. How many did Gehrig chase and put pressure on?

Koschitzke brings different attributes.

That Riewoldt is the primary focus in our forward line is a fact - and it has cost us in the past which is why I was delighted to see the confusion Gwilt, Gardiner, Schnieder, Milne, Koschitzke and R. Clarke caused against a very well drilled and well manned defence likes Adelaide's.


And Reiwoldt dropping back into the defensive "hole" as he did against Adelaide.

Will it work that well every week?

No, it will not - for a raft of reasons.

But what it does do is build pressure - and Koschitzke is ONE of those who build pressure.

And in finals football you need everyone bringing their skill set to the field - some will "fire" on the day, some will contribute and some will apply pressure.

It is often said after premierships that "such and such" played "out of their skin", contributing to the result more so than the recognised "super stars" and taking the pressure off the "super stars".

So my pre-occupation is not with Koschitzke as a "super star", it is with Koschitzke playing his part in the team.

Which he does, with energy and with desire.

And yes, I would give him to a running coach if he is up for a full pre-season - which we hope he finally is.

[st.byron]

Wonderful post To the Top...

Kosi's value is a hell of a lot more than mere kicks and marks... you outlined it perfectly, as you did with your point re. Raph, Gilb, Gram etc..

These defences are often labelled as 'excuses' for the failings of the name players by the haters on this forum....

I, like you, see them as added value, in that, what they bring when they're not playing at the optimum... Kosi's added value is enormous..

yep I agree Sobraz that you can't just measure a player's value in stats. It's the extra things that create pressure that really add value. But they alone aren't enough. Kosi just doesn't provide enough bread and butter impact. He doesn't win enough ruck contests to be a ruckman, doesn't kick enough goals and can't kick well enough to be a really damaging forward, doesn't take enough contested marks to be aerially dominant, doesn't provide enough run to be a high quality utility. He's too slow to play as a designated CHB to pick up someone like Brown or Franklin and he's too slow on the lead. These are the areas he needs to deliver in to really step up from a borderline GOP to really high value. All the 1%ers are great, but it's the guts of being an AFL player that he's not delivering on.

[st.byron]

Well St Byron, I have not come to the view that Kosi is having to build core leg strength recently.
It has been a consistent view of mine over a period of a couple years now.
The reason has been quite simple really, he has missed so many pre-seasons and has missed so much of so many seasons.
So the consistent work to build core strength, successive pre-seasons followed by successive seasons has been absent.
There is more to football, or any sport, than just running onto a playing field.
Preparation is everything. When do they start training again after the season finishes? And what does that training entail? Because that is the competition on the park.
It has just looked to me that core strenth is absent because his ability to turn and push off is lacking by just a little - his ability to chase is lacking just a little, seeing him lunge himself at players to disrupt them instead of using his legs to close and disrupt.
Mind you, you can not be too critical because football is a code where players running and bouncing a ball can maintain space on a chasing player - and we see that every week.
So by chasing and not closing a gap Koschitzke is not alone.
Plus he is 197cm, so you do not expect him to be a fleet footed 182cm player. How many did Gehrig chase and put pressure on?
Koschitzke brings different attributes.
That Riewoldt is the primary focus in our forward line is a fact - and it has cost us in the past which is why I was delighted to see the confusion Gwilt, Gardiner, Schnieder, Milne, Koschitzke and R. Clarke caused against a very well drilled and well manned defence likes Adelaide's.
And Reiwoldt dropping back into the defensive "hole" as he did against Adelaide.
Will it work that well every week?
No, it will not - for a raft of reasons.
But what it does do is build pressure - and Koschitzke is ONE of those who build pressure.
And in finals football you need everyone bringing their skill set to the field - some will "fire" on the day, some will contribute and some will apply pressure.
It is often said after premierships that "such and such" played "out of their skin", contributing to the result more so than the recognised "super stars" and taking the pressure off the "super stars".
So my pre-occupation is not with Koschitzke as a "super star", it is with Koschitzke playing his part in the team.
Which he does, with energy and with desire.
And yes, I would give him to a running coach if he is up for a full pre-season - which we hope he finally is.

Fair enough TTT. Agree that being one of a whole team that builds pressure is a key ingredient of successful teams. If Kosi's doing that then he's contributing in that way, I can see that.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see him traded at the end of the year. I've said I think he isn't in the untouchable category like Roo or Sam Fisher or Lenny or Bally, but I'd still like to see Kosi given another year,with as you say, Misson right on his case for a solid pre-season. I can also see the arguments of people who say trade him while he still has some value, but I think that's premature. However, the time is well past IMO when we need to call a spade a spade re Kosi. He's just not delivering, it's time he did and I'm really tired of hearing about what he's 'gunna be' or 'could be'.

[bobmurray]

What about on Grand Final day they have a footballers race to find the slowest player in the AFL rather than the fastest,1 player from each club..

As it stands right now....i think Kosi would represent the Saints.....

I'm looking forward to the improvement in his core leg strength.....

[Winmarvellous]

There is no doubt he is a premier player - he is 197cm and has the build and the ability to be "anything" - as we have seen in the past when he put together that run of 5 games picking up 11 Brownlow votes (and wasn't Roo on the injury list at the time?).

A premier player doesn't have the "ability" to be anything, he alrady is something. 11 Brownlow votes in 5 games doesn't make you a Brownlow winner. Because you string them together at the same time doesn't make you a champ.

[Bernard Shakey]

11 votes in 5 games, 2005 wasn't it? Or, maybe '06.

Doesn't matter this is 2008 and Kosi aint up to it.

[rexy]

Havent read right through the post so this may have been said, I dont see why we dont try him at CHB and release Blake into the second ruck position, it seems to me that this would suit both of them better, personally I dont think either of them are going badly, Kosis stats are reasonable for a permenant ruck which is where he is playing and Blake is going well down back, I think Kosi though could be a dominant play from in front Jakovich style CHB and Blake could really expose the opposition as the second ruckman especially if King can tire them out in the first 10 minutes of each quarter by banging into them hard.

That way a fit Goose could become a real replacement for Max at FB and McEvoy could be developed as a forward?

[WayneJudson42]

Personally, I am astonished at how quickly some supporters write players off.

1- 197cm KPP's don't grow on trees.

2- The guy has been ravaged with injury for pretty much his whole career. Do not underestimate the value of a few extra preseasons under the belt.

3- He is a big bloke.. which by all accounts take longer to develop. Kosi IMO is a mid 20's body with a 20Y.O experience, given the amount of game time he's missed. Raph and JG were in the same boat early on.

4- He also carries unfair comparisons to Roo coz of his draft pick.

5- any talk of trade MUST consider (a) who you'd get in return, and (b) what holes it would leave in our list.

We are short KPP's with Goose a mystery, and Penny never replaced... and Max on the way out.

Give him another solid preseason and see what gives next year.

Talk about premature evaluation

[Bernard Shakey]

rexy said Kosi's stats are reasonable for a permanent ruck.

v Adelaide on Sunday:
Time on Ground 82%
Disposals 11 (5 clangers)
Marks 5 (1 contested)
Tackles 1
Spoils 1
Critical Errors 5
Frees For 1
Frees Against 2
Goals Nil
Behinds 1
Miss 1
Score Assists Nil
Hitouts 2 (to advantage 50%)

Charlie Gardiner had more contested marks and tackles, 4 less clangers and kicked a goal and people want to drop him this week.

Kosi's game last Sunday was a disgrace to St Kilda, to Robert Harvey and to himself.
From what I saw at training today, I would say he knows it was a disgrace.

[rexy]

Dont beleive Charlie Gardiner played in the ruck at all, so all in all a bad comparison I would have thought. If you think you disgrace your self with performance then you have no sense of the word team. You can only disgrace your self through effort and I do not beleive that Kosi shows a lack of effort, as for a disgrace to Robert Harvey, I doubt that Harvs would think that. If your not happy with his form thats fine, but really suggesting that he is a disgrace is average.

What were the stats of the Adelaide ruckmen? That would be a good way of judging his stats if thats how you rate players?

[matrix]

What were the stats of the Adelaide ruckmen? That would be a good way of judging his stats if thats how you rate players?

moran had 12 touches,(7 kicks 5 h/balls) 7 marks, 3 clangers, 1 inside 50 2 frees against, 1 behind for 72% TOG (time on ground)

maric had 5 touches, 1 mark, 1 clearance, 2 clangers, 1 free for and 2 against, 3 tackles, 1 behind for 77% TOG

kozi had 11 touches, (8 kicks and 3 h/balls), 6 marks, 1 clearance, 5 clangers, 1 free for and 2 against, 1 tackle and 1 behind for 82% TOG

interestingly the hitout stats for us were apparently (according to the adelaide advertiser):
team-26 (23%)
king-21 (19%)
goddard-2 (0%)

and them...
team-27 (30%)
maric-13 (31%)
moran-10 (40%)

on a completely diff note (from kozi) i noticed that it said we had 7 goals from 40+ meters....

[Otiman]

interestingly the hitout stats for us were apparently (according to the adelaide advertiser):
team-26 (23%)
king-21 (19%)
goddard-2 (0%)

Kosi 2
Dempster 1

to round off the 21 hitouts.

A glaring hole in Kosi's game if he has as many hitouts as Goddard.

[Mr Magic]

interestingly the hitout stats for us were apparently (according to the adelaide advertiser):
team-26 (23%)
king-21 (19%)
goddard-2 (0%)

Kosi 2
Dempster 1

to round off the 21 hitouts.

A glaring hole in Kosi's game if he has as many hitouts as Goddard.

The only reason Goddard and Dempster had any hitouts was because our ruckman (King/Kosi) was wrestling with the Adelaide ruckman and it allowed them to be the 'third man up' over the top of them.

Any statistics can be used to further whichever argument you are trying to make.

The facts are plain for all to see:-
Would the coach like Kosi to average 4+ goals a game? - Of course.
Is he doing that currently? - No.
Is the coach prepared to keep playing him anyway - It would seem so.

Therefore it would be safe to assume that the coach is either:-
satisfied with what he is doing
hoping he will produce more
doesn't believe he has any alternative.

All the hypothesizing on here about his value/output/worth to our game is meaningless unless we actually know what he is instructed to do.

It's easy for us to compare his contribution to other players on the ground but how do we know what it is he is expected to do?
Remember RL has dropped Dal and Milney for apparently continually not doing what he wants them to do, so it's not too 'great a leap' to assume that the fact that Kosi hasn't been dropped is a sign that the coach must be relatively ok with his efforts/performances.

Of course that's not to say he couldn't/shouldn't produce more!

[saintly]

it would appear the fans problem is that we remember his his 4 games in 2005 when he took the opposition apart and one 3- 4 games 3 of 3 brownlow votes.

since then he has been injured no preseasons, and this is his first full year of playing. maybe last year i don't remember.
to me he doesn't look very interested. of course i could be reading it wrong!

[Saints94]

Kozi is our X-Factor for the finals he needs to fire or to me he will be trade bait at seasons end

[BAM! (shhhh)]

rexy said Kosi's stats are reasonable for a permanent ruck.

v Adelaide on Sunday:
Time on Ground 82%
Disposals 11 (5 clangers)
Marks 5 (1 contested)
Tackles 1
Spoils 1
Critical Errors 5
Frees For 1
Frees Against 2
Goals Nil
Behinds 1
Miss 1
Score Assists Nil
Hitouts 2 (to advantage 50%)

Charlie Gardiner had more contested marks and tackles, 4 less clangers and kicked a goal and people want to drop him this week.

Kosi's game last Sunday was a disgrace to St Kilda, to Robert Harvey and to himself.
From what I saw at training today, I would say he knows it was a disgrace.

There's a droll comparison. Lets find 2 stats of a player nobody likes that exceed those of a player the poster doesn't like, and use them to paint a picture. That's why people don't like stats.

If we're being objective, the first thing that jumps out from Kosi's statline is 5 clangers v 11 touches. That's woeful. even taking away the frees, 3/11 is almost a 30% chance of Kosi's possession benefitting the wrong team.

The breakeven is contested possessions - Kosi won 6 of his 11 possessions in a contest - at least he was turning over footballs he'd won himself. I find it astounding that more than 50% of his possessions are contested over the course of the season (according to hun).

On the other hand we have Charlie Gardiner, 2 contested possies (both marks), 5 marks, 10 possesions - 90% efficiency (which means I think that his only posession that didn't hit a target was his behind).

The picture I get is 2 very different games, one from a guy who needs to impose himself and find himself some hardball so he can use it (Gardiner), and another who for the love of god needs to win more easy ball, and needs to use it better (kosi).

[matrix]

argue all we like.....
he aint going anywhere.

crows fans at work rate him super highly, even with his form slump at the present time (everyone gets a slump).

and like someone said earlier in the thread, they reckon he is a wild card for our chances of getting thru to the big stage.

we've all seen what he can do, and how good he can do it.
trading him would be nearly (not quite) as stupid as port letting stevens leave for absolutely zilch.

he has to stay i feel....
and he will......and he is gonna fire up in our finals campaign

[matrix]

Koschitzke could be the key.......

http://www.afl.com.au/News/NEWSARTICLE/ ... wsId=66516

[st.byron]

Koschitzke could be the key.......

http://www.afl.com.au/News/NEWSARTICLE/ ... wsId=66516

Koschitzke could be :

President of the United States
The next chairman of BHP Billiton
The inspiration for an entire episode of South Park
The next winner of the Bathurst 1000
The first man to swim from Portsea to Tasmania
First violinist with the Vienna Concerto

Could be anything.
Could be a great footballer. He's just about to go nuts. Just about to tear it up. Just about to provide the x factor in our finals campaign. Just about to win the Coleman medal. He just has to get his body right. Ross just needs to implement a better structure around him. He just needs to develop his core leg strength. He's just about to become the world's all time greatest .....