Koschitzke and the ruck

[i_luv_nick_riewoldt]

Not sure when his contract is up for renewal but that could be a very interesting time......especially if he is offered less coin than he gets now.....

He may well ask to be traded......

2010 i think?

Definitely falling behind a lot of other players!

[plugger66]

Even Kosi would be embarrassed if the best people can come up with at least he gives a contest and takes a good player. He must be better than that or we must look at a trade. Love to be proved wrong in 2 weeks. Not next week. That is no good to us. When the pressure is on in 2 weeks.

[spert]

Never underestimate the value of good ruckmen -especially in finals. Kozi does not work hard enough in contests, and many seem to be waiting for the big game he is going to produce..the last few weeks are when he needed to make a physical statment and hasn't.
I would rather chuck McEvoy in the forward line /backup ruck contests for some experience unless Kozi pulls his finger out.

[Con Gorozidis]

Kosi is too short to be a ruckman and not agile enough to play anywhere else.

I also believe height is less precious than it was. the next lot of kids (there is a post on the 08 draft where all the kids are profiled) shows there is plenty of height coming through and available.

i would have traded him 2 years ago and i still would.

[Sobraz]

Kosi is too short to be a ruckman and not agile enough to play anywhere else.

I also believe height is less precious than it was. the next lot of kids (there is a post on the 08 draft where all the kids are profiled) shows there is plenty of height coming through and available.

i would have traded him 2 years ago and i still would.

have you seen a live game in that time???

[Con Gorozidis]

Kosi is too short to be a ruckman and not agile enough to play anywhere else.

I also believe height is less precious than it was. the next lot of kids (there is a post on the 08 draft where all the kids are profiled) shows there is plenty of height coming through and available.

i would have traded him 2 years ago and i still would.

have you seen a live game in that time???

yep. lots. can take an awesome pack mark. but those opportunities dont come up that often. he does run around and take some marks up the ground. i just think hes confused on what his role is/should be...

[Solar]

question is (right now we have finals coming up, he rest an wait for trade time)

do we have a better in form option as SECOND ruck.

They would have to not only hold down second ruck (look to beat the oppostions second ruck) but offer something either around the ground or forward.

Right now kosi is not playing at his best. He seems to be struggling fitness wise (knee? or just never had a big enough fitness base at start of year). But are we just marking him on what he could be, what his best games have shown he could do. Or just mark him down for what position he is playing and therefore what he brings to this position.

Unless he pulls something from deep down kosi will not be a match winner this september. What we need is for him to give us a contest in the ruck, work back and create CONTESTS down forward.

He opened up a couple of packs on sunday which is not something to sneeze at.

I would not trade a big man this early in his career. Lade has shown that big men can actually improve out of sight as they get older.

[cwrcyn]

It's not about his effort in the ruck, it's his technique. He simply does not know how to body an opponent in a ruck contest to give himself an advantage. He often smashes into an opponent and just bounces off, leaving his opponent to stand still and tap the ball to advantage.

I wouldn't use him as the second ruckman. I'd play him as a forward and let him do occassional boundary throw-in ruck work, or sometimes throw him to CHB and release Blake into the ruck for ten minutes.



.

[n1ck]

Id play him on a HFF.

It gives him the license to roam the ground and play generally as a ruck rover, while also allowing us the option to drop him back into defence as a loose man, or deep forward to make the most of a matchup.

Gwilt seems to be enjoying his stint up forward, and Roo can play anywhere on the ground. Milne and Schneider are playing the best footy they have all season so we have a fair bit of flexibility in our front half.

[Red]

Don't be too hasty. We may get a first rounder who may end up being worse.

An early draft pick doesn't always guarantee success.

[starsign]

hes certainly an enigma at present1
( Least he didn't claim his 3rd scalp in nearly as many weeks...a la Ball & Milney )
I too hold the faith and would be loath to trade him
Have commented before on Aussie Jones' call that Koz plays like he trains, which for a pro footballer IMHO is just not on

RL cuts him some slack for having interrupted career and a few niggling injuries this year, but the time is fast arising when Koz has to stand up and be counted.....maybe that 1st weekend in September
The hope is for a few match winning grabs in the final quarter, where big men seem to come into their own during finals... I think the cliche' is 'they don't get any shorter as the game progresses"
Come on Koz we need you to produce your very best!

[jonesy]

Thought he was excellent against North and Carlton 5-6 weeks ago,so he's got it in him still, just need to see it more than once every 6 weeks

[SB10]

Have bit my tongue on this topic for long enough. Kosi is THE most frustrating player on the list by far.

Have waited and waited and waited and waited for Kosi to start firing up and realise some of the enormous potential he actually does possess.

I have no doubt the knocks to the head have crippled his confidence to play the game. He is a bubbling mess at the moment, with the occasional pack mark all that's left in his bag of tricks.

And when it comes to kicking for goal, well it's heart in mouth stuff as he simply kicks the living suitcase out of it and hopes for the best.

Like others this year, from now on he should be made to earn his position in the team at Casey. His output (including effort) is not that expected of an AFL footballer, let alone one on his bulging pay packet.

Would love for him to prove me wrong, but geez, time is running out.

[saintly]

maybe he is injured and we don't have anyone else to replace him with?

that s the only thing i can think of of, why he is not playing well.

[n1ck]

I dont think there is any lack of effort on Kosi's part.

People say he looks lazy and disinterested, but I think he's generally not right with his body just yet. He's not as agile as he was as a 20yr old at CHB, but I think a few weeks ago we saw that hes starting to get abit more run back into his legs. We also forget that the big blokes take longer to develop. Not everyone is a Riewoldt or a Pavlich who can come into AFL footy at that size and dominate from the get go. We were very fortunate that Kosi came in and showed us his potential quality in his first season, winning the Rising Star award, but his form in that year is an anomaly for a guy his size.

I certainly wouldnt be suprised if the big fella exploded come September.

His confidence has been shattered over years of injury, and that takes quite a while to get over.

With his form, theres only one reason Lyon would keep in the team and thats because he knows how hard Kosi works.

Kosi would be gutted to know that others question his efforts and his intent - thats for sure.

[st.byron]

Kosi needs more time because:

He's still suffering from the after effects of his clash with Giansiracusa
He's being played out of position
He isn't quick enough to play around the ground so should stay at FF
He's not tall enough to be a regular ruckman so should stay at FF
He's too lumbering to play CHB so should stay at FF
He hasn't had enough time to develop as a FF
The team trained all pre-season with Gehrig at FF, it's not fair on Kosi to ask him to play there
He hasn't had enough time to develop as a ruckman
He's coming off a low fitness base due to injuries
He doesn't get quality delivery from the mids. If he did he'd be dominant at FF
His peripheral vision isn't as good as everyone else's
He's got a sore knee
He's lacking in confidence
He's the best contested mark in the comp, except he doesn't take that many
He tries his guts out and is just about to rip it up
He needs to be played at CHB until he gets his confidence back
His core leg strength hasn't developed enough yet. When that gets better, he'll rip it up.
His preparation isn't consistent enough. When he gets that right he'll be awesome
He's improving, isn't that all we can ask?
He's trying his hardest, the coach just needs to implement a better structure around him


The guys got a list of excuses longer than any other. Time is running out for him to prove his value to STKFC. Not saying he should be traded. Am saying he's not untouchable.

[TimeToShineFellas]

I certainly wouldnt be suprised if the big fella exploded come September.

That would certainly complete all the injuries he could possibly have!

[Bernard Shakey]

You hit in 20 st.byron.

The guy needs to shape up or ship out.

[n1ck]

I certainly wouldnt be suprised if the big fella exploded come September.

That would certainly complete all the injuries he could possibly have!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I always get the impression when reading Kosi threads that people are holding a grudge against him for not developing into a Reiwoldt calibre superstar.

As much as we need to get over that expectation from an excuses perspective, we need to look at what he actually does.

IMO, what he actually does is inconsistently find ways to make a couple of his elite skills (pack marking, contested possessions in tight at ground level, generally good disposal - very good for a big man) count on match day. He's neither quick nor slow, but lacks the burst of speed to be a leading forward, and tends to be a 50/50 proposition in a marking contest against a guy his own size or experienced defender. He's a utility at this stage rather than a ruck or forward... calling him a ruck/forward inspires visions of things he doesn't do, and doesn't credit one of his greatest contributions, where he floats back to mark in defense.

Should we trade him? The questions to ask:
- What kind of hole does it leave (is Blake an option as full time 2nd ruck? What does the removed tall leave in the forward structure)
- What can we get for him, and what's the upside of that return (there's no point trading him if the assett returned doesn't help us in some way)
- Do we think Kosi's value is low or high right now (i.e. is he underperforming - his perceived value is low, driving low return, but given a good 2009 we might get more for him, or is he overhyped meaning another team would give up a lot, and we should trade before otehrs catch on) compared to his value to the team.

It often seems to me that those who are most critical of Kosi believe we'll get a 1st rounder for him - based on season 2008, I can't see it. I can still see enough in the good games he's had to hope for a better 2009. I believe he provides decent value at St Kilda, that wouldn't be filled by any return for him.

I don't believe he'll ever become a superstar for us. I do think that at his worst he's not a liability, so that he's worth persisting with in the hope we can get his best out of him more often.

[plugger66]

I always get the impression when reading Kosi threads that people are holding a grudge against him for not developing into a Reiwoldt calibre superstar.

As much as we need to get over that expectation from an excuses perspective, we need to look at what he actually does.

IMO, what he actually does is inconsistently find ways to make a couple of his elite skills (pack marking, contested possessions in tight at ground level, generally good disposal - very good for a big man) count on match day. He's neither quick nor slow, but lacks the burst of speed to be a leading forward, and tends to be a 50/50 proposition in a marking contest against a guy his own size or experienced defender. He's a utility at this stage rather than a ruck or forward... calling him a ruck/forward inspires visions of things he doesn't do, and doesn't credit one of his greatest contributions, where he floats back to mark in defense.

Should we trade him? The questions to ask:
- What kind of hole does it leave (is Blake an option as full time 2nd ruck? What does the removed tall leave in the forward structure)
- What can we get for him, and what's the upside of that return (there's no point trading him if the assett returned doesn't help us in some way)
- Do we think Kosi's value is low or high right now (i.e. is he underperforming - his perceived value is low, driving low return, but given a good 2009 we might get more for him, or is he overhyped meaning another team would give up a lot, and we should trade before otehrs catch on) compared to his value to the team.

It often seems to me that those who are most critical of Kosi believe we'll get a 1st rounder for him - based on season 2008, I can't see it. I can still see enough in the good games he's had to hope for a better 2009. I believe he provides decent value at St Kilda, that wouldn't be filled by any return for him.

I don't believe he'll ever become a superstar for us. I do think that at his worst he's not a liability, so that he's worth persisting with in the hope we can get his best out of him more often.

Thats all fine if he was on 200k a year but because of his wage he limits who we can trade for as we have salary cap pressure. of course he isnt the only one on big money but he had the bggest disparity between what he gets and what he should get.

[cwrcyn]

I think he's a dangerous forward when he's fit, but his knee is hampering him a bit at the moment. Even when fully fit, he is an ineffectual tap ruckman.

He can no doubt play, but he's just not a ruckman and never will be.

197cm is not ruckman height these days (unles you've got a huge leap and great agility or endurance). Blake can play in the ruck because he has the huge leap and the exceptional endurance. Kosi has none of these attributes, and throw in a poor technique and it's all pretty obvious.


He can still be a very dangerous player, but as a forward.


.

[Otiman]

Just watched the replay. He went alright.

I guess we're just expecting the best from him.

[bigcarl]

Just watched the replay. He went alright. I guess we're just expecting the best from him.

what he did do he did well. just didn't do enough of it.

if we're to go past the first week of the finals he's a crucial player imo and his form is paramount to our chances.

the time to lift is now, kosi

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I always get the impression when reading Kosi threads that people are holding a grudge against him for not developing into a Reiwoldt calibre superstar.

As much as we need to get over that expectation from an excuses perspective, we need to look at what he actually does.

IMO, what he actually does is inconsistently find ways to make a couple of his elite skills (pack marking, contested possessions in tight at ground level, generally good disposal - very good for a big man) count on match day. He's neither quick nor slow, but lacks the burst of speed to be a leading forward, and tends to be a 50/50 proposition in a marking contest against a guy his own size or experienced defender. He's a utility at this stage rather than a ruck or forward... calling him a ruck/forward inspires visions of things he doesn't do, and doesn't credit one of his greatest contributions, where he floats back to mark in defense.

Should we trade him? The questions to ask:
- What kind of hole does it leave (is Blake an option as full time 2nd ruck? What does the removed tall leave in the forward structure)
- What can we get for him, and what's the upside of that return (there's no point trading him if the assett returned doesn't help us in some way)
- Do we think Kosi's value is low or high right now (i.e. is he underperforming - his perceived value is low, driving low return, but given a good 2009 we might get more for him, or is he overhyped meaning another team would give up a lot, and we should trade before otehrs catch on) compared to his value to the team.

It often seems to me that those who are most critical of Kosi believe we'll get a 1st rounder for him - based on season 2008, I can't see it. I can still see enough in the good games he's had to hope for a better 2009. I believe he provides decent value at St Kilda, that wouldn't be filled by any return for him.

I don't believe he'll ever become a superstar for us. I do think that at his worst he's not a liability, so that he's worth persisting with in the hope we can get his best out of him more often.

Thats all fine if he was on 200k a year but because of his wage he limits who we can trade for as we have salary cap pressure. of course he isnt the only one on big money but he had the bggest disparity between what he gets and what he should get.

His wage doesn't change the criteria, in fact it magnifies the quandry.

In a hypothetical where we know his wage (and while it's been speculated at, I certainly don't), the consideration of value to team vs. value on trade return becomes larger. The additional consideration becomes whether we've got options for spending that money better under the salary cap. i.e. if he's offloaded for a 2nd rounder with a view to re-signing other players, that's a different consideration than offloading him for a 2nd rounder by itself.

But given that player payments are confidential, it makes it a tough discussion for message boards since we don't know how much pressure the Saints are under (and you'd assume we don't have a lot of room to move), vs how many players are in line for raises (we have some idea) and what their demands will be (we can guess)... and how much room other prospective trading partners have under the cap (major consideration, hard to have much info). Any one of those aspects by itself makes an interesting area for hypothesis - taken together they make it difficult for us to weigh Kosi's salary impact on keep vs. trade, let alone on trade return.

I'd certainly expecting any officials making a trade decision to weigh all these things.

But should his salary be high (which we think it is) it makes it harder to trade him, makes return smaller, and unless absolutely necessary, means that IMO we should be trying to get an improvement in '09 rather than offloading after '08.