It has once again been a season when high hopes and expectations have not been realised, and even if St Kilda remain in the final 8 they will compete in the finals as the weakest team - the form guide shows that our team has been the least consistent of all the finals contenders.
The big positive for me has been the emergence of Nick Riewoldt as a genuine leader and in finally attaining a consistent high level of performance as an elite player.
The most obvious deficiency that causes greatest concern for the future of this team is the lack of genuine backmen - apart from the admirably courageous Max Hudghton (he should play on for 1 more season), St Kilda do not have 1 experienced defender. Sam Fisher, Jason Blake, James Gwilt, Raf Clarke, Jason Gram, Sam Gilbert, Brendon Goddard, Sean Dempster, Jarryn Geary have made up St Kilda's defence this year, but not one of them possesses close and accountable defensive skills when marking their opposing forwards.
Maguire's return in 2009 from long-term injury will help but he will take time to get back into form.
I don't know what the answer is because the problem stems first and foremost from the failure of St Kilda's recruiting managers to identify key defenders in the past 2 or 3 drafts, and secondly an inexplicable lack of development of 2 or 3 key defenders from the current crop of youngsters by the current coaches. I would have thought that Jarryd Allen in particular could have been groomed for a key defensive position.
Many of the aforementioned players have shown varying levels of run and attack from the half-back lines, and that's great when you're controlling the footy, but against leading teams, and even lesser lights such as WCE recently, weak defence costs the Saints heaps.
Just as the Saints during the Thomas era were exposed by lack of genuine ruckmen, Ross Lyon's ultimate success may well be determined by the quality of St Kilda's defenders.
A couple of young experienced defenders may well head St Kilda's shopping list for 2009.
Saints Greatest Weakness
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saintwill66
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stkfc1
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We're ranked 5th for points scored against this year so we're not leaking goals but agree a kpp backmen is a must this year if only to release S.F and B.G forward more. Matty Mac is an uncertainty for next year (really hope he comes good). I think our backline has held up quite well this year Dempster has been handy (not bad for a throw in!)
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saintsRrising
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Well I do agree that we lack a key defender, and in particular if Maguire cannot recover.
However while it is a need...I think our biggest need is another really classy mid (and particularly next year with no Banger).
Though with another key defender it would release Sam to play more midfield time.
PS...I think Blake's defensive skills and spoling have come on in leaps and bounds (SOS???)
However while it is a need...I think our biggest need is another really classy mid (and particularly next year with no Banger).
Though with another key defender it would release Sam to play more midfield time.
PS...I think Blake's defensive skills and spoling have come on in leaps and bounds (SOS???)
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makemytime
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that's where dal is supposed to be filling the gap but hes been inconsistent, good in games where we come out winners but pretty bad when we're losingsaintsRrising wrote:Well I do agree that we lack a key defender, and in particular if Maguire cannot recover.
However while it is a need...I think our biggest need is another really classy mid (and particularly next year with no Banger).
Though with another key defender it would release Sam to play more midfield time.
PS...I think Blake's defensive skills and spoling have come on in leaps and bounds (SOS???)
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saintly_safes
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Very good point .As much as people admire the great man it wont be till hes gone that they will really appreciate how much drive he gave us even in his latter years. We all know hes a champion but his work rate & never say die attitude no matter what the situation is a gift given to a special few. As saints supporters we have been priveleged to wittness it for 21 years . You will never replace Robert Harvey, but hopefully he has given some of our younger guys the passion to emulate his achievements.saintsRrising wrote:Well I do agree that we lack a key defender, and in particular if Maguire cannot recover.
However while it is a need...I think our biggest need is another really classy mid (and particularly next year with no Banger).
Though with another key defender it would release Sam to play more midfield time.
PS...I think Blake's defensive skills and spoling have come on in leaps and bounds (SOS???)
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Superboot
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Any defence will concede when there's no pressure on the opposition upfield.
Our defence may look makeshift but 'pound for pound', a they say, we have one of the better ones in the comp.
Our main deficiency is the variability in effort that, seemingly half, the team puts in. Up one week and flat as a tack the next. The Collingwood game was a case in point, and was a disgrace. They didn't pull their fingers out until it was too late.
But take the Hawthorn game. We were getting beaten, despite having the majority of possession, because of poor decision making and ball use. But we stayed in the game because the effort was maintained. Come the 2nd half, we kept up the pressure, improved ball use, and blew them away.
Our defence may look makeshift but 'pound for pound', a they say, we have one of the better ones in the comp.
Our main deficiency is the variability in effort that, seemingly half, the team puts in. Up one week and flat as a tack the next. The Collingwood game was a case in point, and was a disgrace. They didn't pull their fingers out until it was too late.
But take the Hawthorn game. We were getting beaten, despite having the majority of possession, because of poor decision making and ball use. But we stayed in the game because the effort was maintained. Come the 2nd half, we kept up the pressure, improved ball use, and blew them away.
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spert
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There's an old saying that you need a strong defence to win a flag, and although our defence is good, we need another big quality defender. We also need a class mid along the lines of Kerr of WCE -who can get first possession and carry the ball through the lines. A Full Forward is on the list too.. I think it's time for Allen to get a few more games under his belt as a possibility.
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BAM! (shhhh)
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I don't buy this shortage of key defenders being our biggest weakness line.
Maguire's time on the sideline has hurt, but we've actually done okay with fillins like Gwilt and Blake in key defensive roles.
I'd say you want 3 guys minimum who can play on quality talls, and preferably at least 1 of those should be able to fully shut down a gun, and the otehr 2 ought to be useful with the ball (ideally all 3 can do both, but the list of players who can do that consistently is pretty short.)
Right now we've got:
Hudghton (premium shut down guy)
Sam Fisher (great offensive skills, and his defense has come a LONG way. I'll back him in a wrestle against most, he can be beaten on the lead but is continually improving here, and is okay at ground level and improving there too)
Maguire (injured. often. Offensive skills rusty, his long kicking has been figured out, but probably means he in turn can get back on the offensive bandwagon. Defensively good in the wrestle, good closing speed on the lead, can be beaten on the ground... time will tell whether that remains the case into the future)
Blake (has generally been pretty good in a key defensive role this year. Shut down only. Spare part)
I'd suggest based on the way he's been used this year we're grooming Gilbert to play in the backline going forward. So that gives us a futre AFL Key defensive corps of:
Fisher (we know he'll be there)
Maguire (You'd think if he can get his body right)
Gilbert (Good at ground level, needs to work on his contested marking, but speed would suggest he'll be okay on the lead).
We should be looking at developing another as an emergency tall, or towards the worst case with Maguire, but as hard as it will be to replace someone like Hudghton, our I really do not think that our biggest weakness is our key backs.
As boring as it seems, I think our biggest weakness is our consistency, which goes to the maturity of our midfield IMO - other than Hayes and Harvey, most of our walkup start mids are either under or just hitting 25, so there's a degree to which that's understandable (though not excusable), but it results in us having really patchy results in the groundball (we're pretty good in the air), which in turn puts the microscope to every other weakness, because it gives the opposition an adge for periods of every game in possession. More groundball wins, and the kicking looks better, the defense looks better, and we get more scoring shots making our goalkicking look better.
Maguire's time on the sideline has hurt, but we've actually done okay with fillins like Gwilt and Blake in key defensive roles.
I'd say you want 3 guys minimum who can play on quality talls, and preferably at least 1 of those should be able to fully shut down a gun, and the otehr 2 ought to be useful with the ball (ideally all 3 can do both, but the list of players who can do that consistently is pretty short.)
Right now we've got:
Hudghton (premium shut down guy)
Sam Fisher (great offensive skills, and his defense has come a LONG way. I'll back him in a wrestle against most, he can be beaten on the lead but is continually improving here, and is okay at ground level and improving there too)
Maguire (injured. often. Offensive skills rusty, his long kicking has been figured out, but probably means he in turn can get back on the offensive bandwagon. Defensively good in the wrestle, good closing speed on the lead, can be beaten on the ground... time will tell whether that remains the case into the future)
Blake (has generally been pretty good in a key defensive role this year. Shut down only. Spare part)
I'd suggest based on the way he's been used this year we're grooming Gilbert to play in the backline going forward. So that gives us a futre AFL Key defensive corps of:
Fisher (we know he'll be there)
Maguire (You'd think if he can get his body right)
Gilbert (Good at ground level, needs to work on his contested marking, but speed would suggest he'll be okay on the lead).
We should be looking at developing another as an emergency tall, or towards the worst case with Maguire, but as hard as it will be to replace someone like Hudghton, our I really do not think that our biggest weakness is our key backs.
As boring as it seems, I think our biggest weakness is our consistency, which goes to the maturity of our midfield IMO - other than Hayes and Harvey, most of our walkup start mids are either under or just hitting 25, so there's a degree to which that's understandable (though not excusable), but it results in us having really patchy results in the groundball (we're pretty good in the air), which in turn puts the microscope to every other weakness, because it gives the opposition an adge for periods of every game in possession. More groundball wins, and the kicking looks better, the defense looks better, and we get more scoring shots making our goalkicking look better.
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Con Gorozidis
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agree. when u think it about lots of teams dont have the traditional spine with 2 or 3 quality tall defenders any more( im thinking ayres/ mew/ langford).saintsRrising wrote:Well I do agree that we lack a key defender, and in particular if Maguire cannot recover.
However while it is a need...I think our biggest need is another really classy mid (and particularly next year with no Banger).
Though with another key defender it would release Sam to play more midfield time.
PS...I think Blake's defensive skills and spoling have come on in leaps and bounds (SOS???)
the key is evenness. id love another 2 or 3 good players anywhere on the field. i dont really care where they play. we need some pace. and as someone said above kicking is just so darn important. you can recruit kicking but you can also coach it. accurate kicking saves you so much. i mean we all love the hard ball types like nathan burke. but lets face it - if the guy could kick he could have given us a lot more easy ball and saved us some hard ball.
KICKING KICKIN KICKING.
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Little Dozer
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saintsRrising
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Well perhaps ask the question...what do we need in terms of players to become an elit team?
*Very good teams probably tend to have 2 or 3 elite mids who are then supported bya pool of other good to average mids.
*Right here and now we probably only have one Lenny Hayes, and even Lenny is a touch off being trult elite as he does not nail those gettable goals that he should be.
* Dal could be elite. But simply does not play at his best often enough.
* Ball. In many ways is very good. But his ball use and pace would still appear to be injured restricted. After so long this may be as good as he will be.
So we need Dal to step up and another to emerge or be recruited.
The recent form of Gram and Sam in midfield roles has been promising. I would expect Gram to get better with more experience in the role.
BJ is also a possibility.
X early this year was showing signs but in all honesty he is morea B Grader playing asa support midfielder cum forward.
The other thing a midfield unit needs is depth, so that numbers can be run through the midfield.
We are till short here:
*next year hopefully being a year older will see Armo, Geary, Eddie and Steven all contributing at improved levels.
*using Sam, Gram, and BJ in the midfield more will also help...but that means others have to stand up down back (ie Raph to allow it)
Key Defenders
You need at least one elite and one good key defender. This melds your backline into a better unit.
We have Max at the elite key defender level. Goose is injured.
So we lack one key defender at present.
Sam Fisher is arguably an A Grade player, but is more a flanker (or even mid!!) thana key defender.
Small defender
We havea range of medum to tall flankers.
However we lack a small defender to play on the best small pockets in the AFL who tend to play well against the Saints. Baker and Attard are possibilities, but both are out for the year this year. Another at the club would be handy.
Medium Half Forward
Charlie Gardiner teased us during the NAB Cup looking the goods. But with the reaminder of the season it has echoed his Geelong Hisory which is that he is better than VFL standrd, but is just short of being AFL standard , except asa depth player.
Ferg showed a glimpse, but missed easy goals, and injuries have claimed him again in what so far has been an injury riddled career.
Gwilt is a ray of hope. When moved forward he looks good and unlike many of our players is a good shot on goal. However early days still...but if Gwilt can improve his ability to read the play he may step up yet.
Raph? Well maybe. but as had a rocky year and would appear to be preferred asa HBF rather than asa HFF.
Small Forwards
With Milne, Schneider and X ...supported by Jones...with the emerging Steven our stocks are adequate.
Ruck
Well we do not have the AFL's best rucks, but we are a long way from the worst.
Our current group is competent except when put up againts Cox.
King should play at least one more good year, if not two.
Gardiner aprt from his Eagles game has played ok, but remains injury prone.
Ben has talent, but is very raw.
Rix is nit AFL, is back up only. But given Kings solid year should probably lose his spot to another.
Kosi still does not know how to use his body work in the ruck, and his tap work is hit and miss. But he is an ok relief ruckman.
Blake is ok for cameos too.
Given the ruck divisons of the likely finalists this year and next, our ruck division is ok.
*Very good teams probably tend to have 2 or 3 elite mids who are then supported bya pool of other good to average mids.
*Right here and now we probably only have one Lenny Hayes, and even Lenny is a touch off being trult elite as he does not nail those gettable goals that he should be.
* Dal could be elite. But simply does not play at his best often enough.
* Ball. In many ways is very good. But his ball use and pace would still appear to be injured restricted. After so long this may be as good as he will be.
So we need Dal to step up and another to emerge or be recruited.
The recent form of Gram and Sam in midfield roles has been promising. I would expect Gram to get better with more experience in the role.
BJ is also a possibility.
X early this year was showing signs but in all honesty he is morea B Grader playing asa support midfielder cum forward.
The other thing a midfield unit needs is depth, so that numbers can be run through the midfield.
We are till short here:
*next year hopefully being a year older will see Armo, Geary, Eddie and Steven all contributing at improved levels.
*using Sam, Gram, and BJ in the midfield more will also help...but that means others have to stand up down back (ie Raph to allow it)
Key Defenders
You need at least one elite and one good key defender. This melds your backline into a better unit.
We have Max at the elite key defender level. Goose is injured.
So we lack one key defender at present.
Sam Fisher is arguably an A Grade player, but is more a flanker (or even mid!!) thana key defender.
Small defender
We havea range of medum to tall flankers.
However we lack a small defender to play on the best small pockets in the AFL who tend to play well against the Saints. Baker and Attard are possibilities, but both are out for the year this year. Another at the club would be handy.
Medium Half Forward
Charlie Gardiner teased us during the NAB Cup looking the goods. But with the reaminder of the season it has echoed his Geelong Hisory which is that he is better than VFL standrd, but is just short of being AFL standard , except asa depth player.
Ferg showed a glimpse, but missed easy goals, and injuries have claimed him again in what so far has been an injury riddled career.
Gwilt is a ray of hope. When moved forward he looks good and unlike many of our players is a good shot on goal. However early days still...but if Gwilt can improve his ability to read the play he may step up yet.
Raph? Well maybe. but as had a rocky year and would appear to be preferred asa HBF rather than asa HFF.
Small Forwards
With Milne, Schneider and X ...supported by Jones...with the emerging Steven our stocks are adequate.
Ruck
Well we do not have the AFL's best rucks, but we are a long way from the worst.
Our current group is competent except when put up againts Cox.
King should play at least one more good year, if not two.
Gardiner aprt from his Eagles game has played ok, but remains injury prone.
Ben has talent, but is very raw.
Rix is nit AFL, is back up only. But given Kings solid year should probably lose his spot to another.
Kosi still does not know how to use his body work in the ruck, and his tap work is hit and miss. But he is an ok relief ruckman.
Blake is ok for cameos too.
Given the ruck divisons of the likely finalists this year and next, our ruck division is ok.
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perfectionist
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