I start from mid 2004 because that was the point when we had a core on which to build, courtesy of where we had finished on the Ladder post, and including, 2000.
We were Grand Finalists in 1997, in the finals in 1998 and were well placed mid way thru 1999 before slumping to the foot of the table.
So that is the history of Drafting who we were able to Draft.
In those post 2000 years we looked for the players drafted to show us that they had the ability commensurate with where they were drafted, and then we looked for them to come together as a side - with the recruited players such as Hamill, Gehrig, Black, Penny, Powell and even Voss, who was "plucked" by Blight.
We tried to "manufacture" a defence with Hall at CHB and Gehrig at Full-back.
And we traded off Everitt and Hall. Plus a few others.
The real problem we have now is a combination of factors, some of these factors which were obvious to some of us from mid 2004, some obvious to us from later and some obvious to us in 2008.
We no longer have the courtesy of high Draft Picks (not that we are any orphans) - because we will not "bottom out" given the high Draft Picks still on our list - so our current dilemma is that we have structural deficiencies accross our key defenders (noting Max is a veteran), accross our Forward Line where the ultimate would be to release Roo when we are under stretch but not lose our goal scoring potential and accross our mid-field in terms of offensive and defensive speeds - and disposal skills where a 37 year old is the bench mark in our team.
This is not about Thomas or Lyon.
It is about St Kilda FC and it is about why St Kilda FC have only won one premiership in its history - 42 years ago - also noting the financial circumstances of St Kilda FC dictated that they could not compete in the pre-Draft and pre-Salary Cap regime - where McAllister said to Payze at a Collingwood Home Game President's lunch (and Collingwood were in dire financial circumstances at the time) that Collingwood would give St Kilda $100,000- if St Kilda voted out the Equalisation Scheme.
That is how desperate Collingwood and St Kilda were at the time - and it tellsyou why St Kilda has the history it has - selling Form 4's for money to survive.
Now we are in different times, and we have different opportunities - opportunities we must recognise and grasp -and we must use them to cement St Kilda as a side consistently challenging.
We have the core, but we must stabilise and improve by embracing the new order of AFL football to give players we need the opportunity to succeed with St Kilda FC.
I just do not think we have a clear focus - and I think we are wallowing around in the pond with a certain amount of delusion.
We are half a dozen players short (as are most teams, so the race is on) and the reason for that is that you do not rebuild your entire structure from access to early Draft Picks - because as that talent comes on board you improve and the early Draft Picks are gone - you are back in the ruck and needing to work your backside off to get a Sam Fisher at 55.
Plus you lose players each year, including core players.
I hark back to our key defensive options and that there is no developing St Kilda List player playing at either CHB or Full-back at Casey.
With Max entering the twilight of his career.
I view that as serious, and I trust the footy club does also.
The real problem is that this fact is impacting on us in 2008, and it will again in 2009 because you can not expect a drafted player to step straight in to any one of those positions (and the same with our rucks).
This is the danger.
It has nothing to do with Thomas or Lyon.
It is a problem for St Kilda FC, today and into the future.
And that is what we are concerned about - today and the future.
Having said that you always take the lessons from the past so mistakes are not repeated.
It is not the mistakes, it is the repeating of the mistakes that does the damage.
The nucleus of a Premiership Team
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Teflon
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Envy...or respect?Teflon wrote:I still recall sitting there watching us roll Adelaide in 05 and saying "we will have a flag in a few weeks - certain"
And everytime I watch Geelong run out as a powerhouse I cant help but feel total envy...could that have been us with some decent list management and fitness support?
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to me respect doesnt purely come from success......theres more to it. Ive worked for many who have "made it to the top of the heap" and respected probably 2 in history.degruch wrote:Envy...or respect?Teflon wrote:I still recall sitting there watching us roll Adelaide in 05 and saying "we will have a flag in a few weeks - certain"
And everytime I watch Geelong run out as a powerhouse I cant help but feel total envy...could that have been us with some decent list management and fitness support?
Ill never respect Cameron Mooney. Hes a moron.
Definately envy.
“Yeah….nah””
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saintsRrising
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I heard GT o the radio yesyerday.
Talking about 2004..and that he felt we that year peaked two years two early!!!
Interesting as he obviously forgot what 2006 turned out as!
But very instructive too as it shows where GT's mindset was.
He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit. Hence he stopping building a team, and starting just increasing depth with players that were never god enough.
This was GT's greatest mistake, and greatest sin.
Talking about 2004..and that he felt we that year peaked two years two early!!!
Interesting as he obviously forgot what 2006 turned out as!
But very instructive too as it shows where GT's mindset was.
He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit. Hence he stopping building a team, and starting just increasing depth with players that were never god enough.
This was GT's greatest mistake, and greatest sin.
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Teflon
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sadly the facts are then on this.saintsRrising wrote:I heard GT o the radio yesyerday.
Talking about 2004..and that he felt we that year peaked two years two early!!!
Interesting as he obviously forgot what 2006 turned out as!
But very instructive too as it shows where GT's mindset was.
He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit. Hence he stopping building a team, and starting just increasing depth with players that were never god enough.
This was GT's greatest mistake, and greatest sin.
So many ordinary players we grabbed and despite the spin we abandoned "pick the best avaialble" approach.
we are paying now and will for some time we just do NOT have the cattle to be a consistent challenger. sure we will win games etc and then fall away to duds.
“Yeah….nah””
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JeffDunne
No, that's what people like yourself would like to believe.saintsRrising wrote:He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit.
Don't you ever get sick of hating for the sake of hating?
I know GT ruined your simplistic dream but it's really not healthy to focus it on it daily.
Fact is we've been the poster child for teams topping up since GT was given the arse but I suppose you support those decisions simply because they didn't involve Grant Thomas?
You really are one sad individual.
It's great being able to read someone with some good old fashioned common sense!BigMart wrote:Some very short memories
Thomas got
Group A - PRIME...
Hayes, Hamill, Gehrig, Hudghton, Jones, Voss, Black, Baker. were in their Prime in 2004-05....
Group B - Past Prime
Harvey (91-2003), Burke (91-99), Loewe (90-00), Peckett (96-98), Powell (99-01)...were all past their prime....Burke and Loewe had acutally retired.....Everitt (02) and Hall (01) moved on....when we played finals......
Group B
Roo 21, Kosi 21 (inj), Dal 20, Ball 20, X 20, Goose 20, Joey 20, Goddard 19, L.Fisher 19, S.Fisher 22, Milne 23. - were all developing players....
Ross Lyon got - In their PRIME right now
Group A - (23-28yo)
Gram, X, L.Fisher, Hayes, Baker, Montagna, Riewoldt, Schneider, Ball, Raph, Goddard, Birss, Dempster, S.Fisher, Dal santo, Blake, Maguire (inj), Milne, Blake.
Group B - 29+
King, Hudghton, Gehrig, Gardner, Harvey.
Group C - Developing (18-22)
McEvoy, Gilbert, Armo, Howard, McQualter, Gwilt, Steven, Allen, CJ, Eddy, Geary, Attard
Not to mention having developed them all, creating a great environment and keeping them all at the club.Thomas got
Roo 21, Kosi 21 (inj), Dal 20, Ball 20, X 20, Goose 20, Joey 20, Goddard 19, L.Fisher 19, S.Fisher 22, Milne 23. - were all developing players....
Per what GT inherited we were at rock bottom when he took over (after the Blight sacking) and everything that that entailed (financial, media
membership) Yes GT had it really easy when he took over. Who woulda thunk that Roo and kosi should have been superstars in their first year of AFL 
"Thanks korters. If Richmond kick more goals they'll win"-R.Scumbag (nee Walls)
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kaos theory
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Interesting. To try to sum up some thoughts there, using BM & TTT positions, this is the way I see it:
2000-2003:
The club went through a rebuilding phase, and strategically had the right view. We held picks, and traded for picks during some good draft periods. BOth GT & RB did well, strategically, during this phase.
2004-2007:
Firstly, GT was able to capitalize on the momentum building through the club from late 2003. He had the ability to get the players mentally focused for games, and nutured & build on the emotional bonds. This worked well for a period of time.
However, the club was neglecting some key areas, specifically;
- recruiting,
- player development (relationship with vfl team, skills development, rookies)
- injury management.
These neglected areas began to effect our game day performances. Coupled with some tactical game day weaknesses (perceived by some), we either couldn't get the fit cattle on the ground, and/or had limited developing talent (outside of the top 6 to 8 players), coming through to replenish.
To address these neglected areas effectively, a strong footy department management was required, but RB could not get in place a model, because of;
- GT's style/approach & control, and/or,
- RB's inability to implement the changes due to his personal issues with GT or lack of skill
Ultimately RB & GT's inability to put in place the detailed management & operational structures & processes required bring ultimate success, and an inability to deal with their personal issues, was their downfall.
2007-2008:
For RL's first yr, he had the same poorly structured footy department that GT faced, perhaps worse, given the starcivich issues during the pre-season. He inherited what was viewed as a top 4 list, but weaknesses were developing. In RL's second yr, with a change of administration, there has been a major improvement in the footy dept. operations (e.g. recruiting, player development & injury management). But during his second yr, RL, so far, seems to have failed to capitalize on the 2008 supporting structures he has had in place. The last 3 rounds have been particularly disappointing.
In summary:
So the question now remains:
- Is our current failures a result purely of a poor coach that can't take advantage of good support structures and a very good list?
OR
- Is our current failures a result purely of cumulating effects of years of neglect in key areas of the footy department?
OR
- Is our current failures a result of a bit of both (at varying degrees of contribution between these two areas)?
That is the question the club management needs to carefully consider at the end of the year...
2000-2003:
The club went through a rebuilding phase, and strategically had the right view. We held picks, and traded for picks during some good draft periods. BOth GT & RB did well, strategically, during this phase.
2004-2007:
Firstly, GT was able to capitalize on the momentum building through the club from late 2003. He had the ability to get the players mentally focused for games, and nutured & build on the emotional bonds. This worked well for a period of time.
However, the club was neglecting some key areas, specifically;
- recruiting,
- player development (relationship with vfl team, skills development, rookies)
- injury management.
These neglected areas began to effect our game day performances. Coupled with some tactical game day weaknesses (perceived by some), we either couldn't get the fit cattle on the ground, and/or had limited developing talent (outside of the top 6 to 8 players), coming through to replenish.
To address these neglected areas effectively, a strong footy department management was required, but RB could not get in place a model, because of;
- GT's style/approach & control, and/or,
- RB's inability to implement the changes due to his personal issues with GT or lack of skill
Ultimately RB & GT's inability to put in place the detailed management & operational structures & processes required bring ultimate success, and an inability to deal with their personal issues, was their downfall.
2007-2008:
For RL's first yr, he had the same poorly structured footy department that GT faced, perhaps worse, given the starcivich issues during the pre-season. He inherited what was viewed as a top 4 list, but weaknesses were developing. In RL's second yr, with a change of administration, there has been a major improvement in the footy dept. operations (e.g. recruiting, player development & injury management). But during his second yr, RL, so far, seems to have failed to capitalize on the 2008 supporting structures he has had in place. The last 3 rounds have been particularly disappointing.
In summary:
So the question now remains:
- Is our current failures a result purely of a poor coach that can't take advantage of good support structures and a very good list?
OR
- Is our current failures a result purely of cumulating effects of years of neglect in key areas of the footy department?
OR
- Is our current failures a result of a bit of both (at varying degrees of contribution between these two areas)?
That is the question the club management needs to carefully consider at the end of the year...
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How this morphs into a Thomas v. Whoever is amazing.
Let's put some facts on the table.
Within a Football Club, and the management of on field performance, there are many elements.
To start with 2, there are List Management responsibilities and there are Man Management responsibilities.
List Management is obvious, because players come and go - and the bulk are retained because how do you have a "good clean out" in the post Draft period other than over a succession of years?
The List Management area is the area we have still to learn about - and where we have to improve because, for a second consecutive year we look like missing out on finals football, which is the pre-requisite to winning premierships. This is a statement of fact. Look at the Premiership Table in 2007 and 2008. And tell me, given the current situation with our player resource, why it will be different in 2009.
In regards Man Management, this covers melding together the egos and whatever else makes for the vast complexities of each and every individual player, into a team which performs on the field of play, consistently, to a team plan so you have expectations of support and to a standard representing the best of team capacities (and individual capacities in bringing to the team particular individual skills).
In regards Man Management, among a player list of 40, you are going to have some "interesting" situations, some groupings of mates, some aloof, some extroverted, some reserved - and the list of complexities goes on and on.
At St Kilda we melded together List Management and Man Management, and I for one supported the view that this was detrimental because there was no "external audit", for a choice of words.
There was no one looking in on "Man Management", where differing associations are formed between coaches and players, with the integrity of oversight in regards the best, on-going interests of St Kilda FC.
And when the Board (which is ultimately responsible) attempted to move on this area of audit, they struck resistance.
The "Man Managers" should have input, obviously (and, in the normal course of events, their input would be adhered to or at least considered) but they should not have unfettered control.
Organisations just do not prosper with such an environment.
No one is beyond question - and questioning and respondintg to questioning is part of the process.
If you make the good argument, you win.
If you do not make the good argument, you lose.
THe Board need to question the future direction of the playing side of St Kilda FC, and set the business plan to re-dress a position where St Kilda look like missing the finals for a second succesive season no matter the presence of so many high Draft Pick players on their list (including those recruited from elsewhere).
Is the correction with List Management?
Or is the correction with Man Management?
I would just repeat, with a scarcity of key defensive options, no St Kilda listed player is named at CHB or Full-back at Casey.
And no one off the St Kilda list can be named there.
So I think the correction lies in List Management, and we have lessons still to learn.
Plus, there is a history to learn from so mistakes are not repeated and St Kilda FC goes onwards and upwards.
Let's put some facts on the table.
Within a Football Club, and the management of on field performance, there are many elements.
To start with 2, there are List Management responsibilities and there are Man Management responsibilities.
List Management is obvious, because players come and go - and the bulk are retained because how do you have a "good clean out" in the post Draft period other than over a succession of years?
The List Management area is the area we have still to learn about - and where we have to improve because, for a second consecutive year we look like missing out on finals football, which is the pre-requisite to winning premierships. This is a statement of fact. Look at the Premiership Table in 2007 and 2008. And tell me, given the current situation with our player resource, why it will be different in 2009.
In regards Man Management, this covers melding together the egos and whatever else makes for the vast complexities of each and every individual player, into a team which performs on the field of play, consistently, to a team plan so you have expectations of support and to a standard representing the best of team capacities (and individual capacities in bringing to the team particular individual skills).
In regards Man Management, among a player list of 40, you are going to have some "interesting" situations, some groupings of mates, some aloof, some extroverted, some reserved - and the list of complexities goes on and on.
At St Kilda we melded together List Management and Man Management, and I for one supported the view that this was detrimental because there was no "external audit", for a choice of words.
There was no one looking in on "Man Management", where differing associations are formed between coaches and players, with the integrity of oversight in regards the best, on-going interests of St Kilda FC.
And when the Board (which is ultimately responsible) attempted to move on this area of audit, they struck resistance.
The "Man Managers" should have input, obviously (and, in the normal course of events, their input would be adhered to or at least considered) but they should not have unfettered control.
Organisations just do not prosper with such an environment.
No one is beyond question - and questioning and respondintg to questioning is part of the process.
If you make the good argument, you win.
If you do not make the good argument, you lose.
THe Board need to question the future direction of the playing side of St Kilda FC, and set the business plan to re-dress a position where St Kilda look like missing the finals for a second succesive season no matter the presence of so many high Draft Pick players on their list (including those recruited from elsewhere).
Is the correction with List Management?
Or is the correction with Man Management?
I would just repeat, with a scarcity of key defensive options, no St Kilda listed player is named at CHB or Full-back at Casey.
And no one off the St Kilda list can be named there.
So I think the correction lies in List Management, and we have lessons still to learn.
Plus, there is a history to learn from so mistakes are not repeated and St Kilda FC goes onwards and upwards.
It has nothing to do with Grant Thomas or Ross Lyon, it is NOT about laying blame.....it is about the STKFC......and the fact we missed the boat yet again (1991/1992)......and whether we are able to build and have another tilt before 2010 ends (Riewoldt gone).....
B: GILBERT (23) - MAGUIRE (27) - ATTARD (24)
HB: GODDARD (26) - S.FISHER (28) - GRAM (26)
C: R.CLARKE (24) - BALL (27) - DAL SANTO (27)
HF: STEVEN (20) - RIEWOLDT (28) - X.CLARKE (27)
F: McEVOY (20) - ALLEN (22) - SCHNEIDER (27)
Foll: KOSCHITZKE (28) - HAYES (30) - MONTAGNA (27)
Int: D.ARMITAGE (21) - J.GEARY (21) - YARRAN (20) - McQUALTER (25)
Emerg: DEMPSTER (26) - EDDY (21) - BLAKE (29) - BAKER (30) - MILES (23) and 12 draft/trade selections between now and 2010......
that would be my BLUEPRINT...
and Teflon, no matter which way you spin it......GT will be remembered as one of our best ever coaches (sad as that is with 0 prems)....5 seasons (15th, 10th, 3rd, 3rd, 8th).....winning >50%.
Lyon has so far will have a 9th, and I believe this season we will finish 10th......he has a lot do do...
B: GILBERT (23) - MAGUIRE (27) - ATTARD (24)
HB: GODDARD (26) - S.FISHER (28) - GRAM (26)
C: R.CLARKE (24) - BALL (27) - DAL SANTO (27)
HF: STEVEN (20) - RIEWOLDT (28) - X.CLARKE (27)
F: McEVOY (20) - ALLEN (22) - SCHNEIDER (27)
Foll: KOSCHITZKE (28) - HAYES (30) - MONTAGNA (27)
Int: D.ARMITAGE (21) - J.GEARY (21) - YARRAN (20) - McQUALTER (25)
Emerg: DEMPSTER (26) - EDDY (21) - BLAKE (29) - BAKER (30) - MILES (23) and 12 draft/trade selections between now and 2010......
that would be my BLUEPRINT...
and Teflon, no matter which way you spin it......GT will be remembered as one of our best ever coaches (sad as that is with 0 prems)....5 seasons (15th, 10th, 3rd, 3rd, 8th).....winning >50%.
Lyon has so far will have a 9th, and I believe this season we will finish 10th......he has a lot do do...
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saintsRrising
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Past Prime?BigMart wrote:Some very short memories
Thomas got
Group B - Past Prime
Harvey (91-2003), Burke (91-99), Loewe (90-00), Peckett (96-98), Powell (99-01)...were all past their prime....Burke and Loewe had acutally retired.....Everitt (02) and Hall (01) moved on....when we played finals......
Harvey won AA selection in 2003. Still a very good player when GT took over.
Everitt won AA selection in 2005.
Hall won AA selection in 2004, 2005, 2006.
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saintsRrising
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True on both counts.BigMart wrote:......GT will be remembered as one of our best ever coaches (sad as that is with 0 prems)....5 seasons (15th, 10th, 3rd, 3rd, 8th).....winning >50%.
Lyon has so far will have a 9th, and I believe this season we will finish 10th......he has a lot do do...
GT's early years were good.
Lyon is struggling.
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saintsRrising
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Not a bad team.BigMart wrote:
B: GILBERT (23) - MAGUIRE (27) - ATTARD (24)
HB: GODDARD (26) - S.FISHER (28) - GRAM (26)
C: R.CLARKE (24) - BALL (27) - DAL SANTO (27)
HF: STEVEN (20) - RIEWOLDT (28) - X.CLARKE (27)
F: McEVOY (20) - ALLEN (22) - SCHNEIDER (27)
Foll: KOSCHITZKE (28) - HAYES (30) - MONTAGNA (27)
Int: D.ARMITAGE (21) - J.GEARY (21) - YARRAN (20) - McQUALTER (25)
...
But we just lack one or two really classy players in order to become a really good team.
Hopefully Steven can step and become one such player.
We need some players on our list to improve, to morph into a next level player...IF we want to taste September success.
It may not happen of course, but we need X and Raph to avtually become the players they have shown us in glimpses.
Gwilt too is a bit of an enigma. at times watching him you think YES he looks really good. At other times he looks horrid. A beautifil kick, but who sometimes just looks lost on the football field. Hopefully he can with games improve his reading of the game and "footballer' skills and become that classy HF we so desperately need. Now Gwilt may never do it....but there is that hint of excitement that he may.
Armo needs to imprive his endurance. He looks ok, but simply does not find enough of the ball often enough. But he is young still.
Gram. Has only started playing midfield more this season and so is still learning the game. At tmes has looked dominant, at other times lost. I think he will continue to improve and become that extra bit of class that we need in the midfield.
Sam Fisher. I think Sam too is that other missing element for our midfield. On song he is great setter up of play. He plays well down back. But midfield is king these days, and we need more talent there. sam and Gram in our midfield can give us that extra touch of depth we need.
Plus perhaps BJ running free more often.
Gilbert Where is the gilbert of last year gone? We need him back, and improving.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Sun 17 Aug 2008 12:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Saint R.......
Harvey did win AA selection in 2003 and was RU best & fairest in that season.....which is why I say his prime was 90-03.....after 03 his B&F results slipped, and he was no longer elite.....just great.....
I was speaking of players in their PRIME in our FINALS years of 2004-2006 - Gehrig, Hayes, Ball, Dal, Riewoldt, Jones wre our best in that period...
Everit and Hall had already left us......for three seasons, when they were AA's
Harvey did win AA selection in 2003 and was RU best & fairest in that season.....which is why I say his prime was 90-03.....after 03 his B&F results slipped, and he was no longer elite.....just great.....
I was speaking of players in their PRIME in our FINALS years of 2004-2006 - Gehrig, Hayes, Ball, Dal, Riewoldt, Jones wre our best in that period...
Everit and Hall had already left us......for three seasons, when they were AA's
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saintsRrising
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Yes...BigMart wrote:Saint R.......
Harvey did win AA selection in 2003 and was RU best & fairest in that season.....which is why I say his prime was 90-03.....after 03 his B&F results slipped, and he was no longer elite.....just great.....
I was speaking of players in their PRIME in our FINALS years of 2004-2006 - Gehrig, Hayes, Ball, Dal, Riewoldt, Jones wre our best in that period...
Everit and Hall had already left us......for three seasons, when they were AA's
But I guess what I have geeting at is that both GT and RL had pretty useful "raw" materials to work with. That GT traded away some players does not decrease what he started with.
It is nota GT vs RL argument as some wish to make out.
They are two different coaching periods with different chalenges.
RL had nothing to do with GT going but cops a lot of flak due to it.
I don't believe that either coach has made 100% of their calls right or wrong.
And yes RL given the talent at his disposal has so far underachieved.
However equally the playing group that RL inherited was not an instant GF in waiting and had many flaws that needed to be addressed.
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This post would seem to encapsulate the common saintsational view. It's a valid opinion, but it ignores a few things:saintsRrising wrote:I heard GT o the radio yesyerday.
Talking about 2004..and that he felt we that year peaked two years two early!!!
Interesting as he obviously forgot what 2006 turned out as!
But very instructive too as it shows where GT's mindset was.
He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit. Hence he stopping building a team, and starting just increasing depth with players that were never god enough.
This was GT's greatest mistake, and greatest sin.
#1 - in rating '06 as a downturn, it ignores several things: Injuries as compared to the 2 years prior. Where the team finished on the home and away ladder, and weights the eventual result of a single game (Melbourne elimination final) incredibly heavily given that result drops the ladder position, and the game's outcome hinged on some individual uncontrollable misfortune (further injuries).
#2 - it implies that after '04 NO view was given to recruitment and development. In saying we hadn't achieved our height in '04, at the time there would have been expected youth development from: Raph Clarke, McQualter ('04 1st rounder), L Fisher (long layoff), just to go with guys who were on the list at the time, and others came in after. Even the strange decision not to fund a rookie list does not imply that the club thought they had their premiership 22 playing in the '04 prelim.
#3 - We're stating with hindsight that the depth players brought in turned out never to be good enough. We specifically targetted players under 25 who would still have scope for improvement. We didn't start looking at players of the ilk of M Gardiner, M Clarke, and King until AFTER '06... our pickups prior to that were more in the vein of Schneider. The difference is important, because while the outcome might be the same, it goes directly in the face of the idea that after '04 we thought we had it all worked out.
Our list management (among other things) after '04 was obviously not ideal. However it's not a simple a to b in order to say that because Thomas thought we got ahead of ourselves in '04 where his expectations had been more around '06, he got sucked into the new expectations and ignored future development. IMO, it implies the reverse, and says that we all got ahead of our expectations after '04 (probably true)...
To draw my own long bow, I'd say those expectations eventually led to Thomas' demise (far more than the ego posters love to harp on), and have created a very tough situation for his successor, who has taken on the unenviable task of focusing a still fairly young group players down a new direction at a stage where they would have felt on the cusp of achievement in their old habits.
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
- Henry Ford
- Henry Ford
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WayneJudson42
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Ok, so GT didn't top up with recycled players? McGough, Ackland? Guerra? get real FFS.JeffDunne wrote:No, that's what people like yourself would like to believe.saintsRrising wrote:He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit.
Don't you ever get sick of hating for the sake of hating?
I know GT ruined your simplistic dream but it's really not healthy to focus it on it daily.
Fact is we've been the poster child for teams topping up since GT was given the arse but I suppose you support those decisions simply because they didn't involve Grant Thomas?
You really are one sad individual.
And where was RL supposed to draft the guns from???
Wiht pick #9... Armo IIRC... and McEvoy. And everyone stated that the drafts were very shallow. Let's weigh it up against the draft picks available to each coach. Not defending either GT or RL, but, please at least be balanced about this.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
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saintsRrising
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There was.JeffDunne wrote:If it was considered such a plumb role, I presume there was a long list of applicants for the job?saintsRrising wrote:A bit of history.
When RB and GT pretended to have GT apply for the St Kilda coaching job, while it was actually a sham with GT already having the job, the St Kilda Coaching job was regarded a plumb role due the quality of the list that had been assembled....and which was about to be further boosted by low draft picks in the super-draft of 2001 which was widely acknowledges as beeinga great draft to have 4 picks in the top two dozen in.
I think Harvey was about the only one that said he did not want it.
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saintsRrising
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I think your post is much more of a reflection of your way thinking than mine.JeffDunne wrote:
Don't you ever get sick of hating for the sake of hating?
.
I don't hate GT.
Indeed unlike your posts on RB I have not posted vitriol about GT.
I don't hate anyone for having contrary views to me, nor to I hate St Kilda coaches or players that have underformed.
Do I hate David Winbanks ? No. Do I regard him as having played poorly? Yes I do. One of the worst players I have seen in a St Kilda jumper.
Do I regard GT as having bungled our list management ? Yes I do.
Do I regard him as having gotten the St Kilda coaching job based on who he knew rather than on merit? Yes I do.
Do I hate him for it? No.
Am I annoyed at him and RB for their deceipt on this? Yes I am. Do I hate either of them? No I don't. I think both started with the right motives, but both let their egos and arrogance get in the way of what was best for the Saints.
But lets face it. No one will become the President or head coach of any AFL unless they have a healthy ego.
Do I hate GT for wanting to be the St Kilda coach? No I do not. Who, who is interested in AFL footy and the Saints would not want to be coach?
On GT's coaching. I think early on he was good. But then struggled when other coaches adapted to our gameplan and he could not.
Post Bonnie Doon he adapted and his coaching IMO was amongst the best of his career and was quite good by any standard (and I posted this just before his demise).
But a coach is not just there for the match day. He has many facets. Unfortunately for GT one of the most important things a coach needs to to do is build and develop a team = list management. And unfortunately for GT, St Kilda and the fans he was poor in this aspect of what coach needs to be.
Do I hate GT for IMO not being competent in this regard? No.
Do I think that this was an opportunity lost for the saints? Yes I do.
Whether it was coincidence or not I know not. But post Waldron the wheels fell off in terms of list management.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
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JeffDunne
Where did I say that?WayneJudson42 wrote:Ok, so GT didn't top up with recycled players? McGough, Ackland? Guerra? get real FFS.JeffDunne wrote:No, that's what people like yourself would like to believe.saintsRrising wrote:He thought that he had the team , and that it just had to age a bit.
Don't you ever get sick of hating for the sake of hating?
I know GT ruined your simplistic dream but it's really not healthy to focus it on it daily.
Fact is we've been the poster child for teams topping up since GT was given the arse but I suppose you support those decisions simply because they didn't involve Grant Thomas?
You really are one sad individual.
As usual reading what you want to read.
There is a significant difference though between players under 25 and players being drafted out of retirement .
Is that a serious question?And where was RL supposed to draft the guns from???
I thought the argument was our list management went downhill after 2004?Wiht pick #9... Armo IIRC... and McEvoy. And everyone stated that the drafts were very shallow. Let's weigh it up against the draft picks available to each coach. Not defending either GT or RL, but, please at least be balanced about this.
TBH, I reckon any subjective view of our list management would show it hasn't improved one iota since GT got the arse.
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JeffDunne
Would you care to name them?saintsRrising wrote:There was.JeffDunne wrote:If it was considered such a plumb role, I presume there was a long list of applicants for the job?saintsRrising wrote:A bit of history.
When RB and GT pretended to have GT apply for the St Kilda coaching job, while it was actually a sham with GT already having the job, the St Kilda Coaching job was regarded a plumb role due the quality of the list that had been assembled....and which was about to be further boosted by low draft picks in the super-draft of 2001 which was widely acknowledges as beeinga great draft to have 4 picks in the top two dozen in.
I think Harvey was about the only one that said he did not want it.
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To the top
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Big Mart, to be more realistic:-
Howard xxxxxx Gilbert
S. Fisher xxxxxxx Gram
Riewoldt Goddard Montagna
X. Clarke Koschitzke Ball
Steven Allen xxxxxxx
McEvoy Dal Santo Armitage
R. Clarke Hayes xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
Maguire to CHB (NOT Full-back) is a wish list scenario.
There is a need for each of Allen, Howard, Steven, Armitage and McEvoy to stand up as very capable AFL footballers.
And we need half a dozen others to boot, to fill the identified "holes".
Then we need to cover the contigencies of injury and form accross the park by working on developing options.
Howard xxxxxx Gilbert
S. Fisher xxxxxxx Gram
Riewoldt Goddard Montagna
X. Clarke Koschitzke Ball
Steven Allen xxxxxxx
McEvoy Dal Santo Armitage
R. Clarke Hayes xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
Maguire to CHB (NOT Full-back) is a wish list scenario.
There is a need for each of Allen, Howard, Steven, Armitage and McEvoy to stand up as very capable AFL footballers.
And we need half a dozen others to boot, to fill the identified "holes".
Then we need to cover the contigencies of injury and form accross the park by working on developing options.
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bobmurray
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We may make the eight with this team but it's too much like the currentBigMart wrote:
B: GILBERT (23) - MAGUIRE (27) - ATTARD (24)
HB: GODDARD (26) - S.FISHER (28) - GRAM (26)
C: R.CLARKE (24) - BALL (27) - DAL SANTO (27)
HF: STEVEN (20) - RIEWOLDT (28) - X.CLARKE (27)
F: McEVOY (20) - ALLEN (22) - SCHNEIDER (27)
Foll: KOSCHITZKE (28) - HAYES (30) - MONTAGNA (27)
Int: D.ARMITAGE (21) - J.GEARY (21) - YARRAN (20) - McQUALTER (25)
Emerg: DEMPSTER (26) - EDDY (21) - BLAKE (29) - BAKER (30) - MILES (23) and 12 draft/trade selections between now and 2010......
team which is clearly not good enough
How many defenders will The Saints pick in the 2024 draft ? 