I have joined the club.

[meher baba]

This has been a good thread IMO because the Thomas-bashers have largely stayed away. So we haven't had the endless crap about "GT ruined the list" that we usually get on this sort of thread

Those of us who are not Thomas-bashers are able to look at the question of what to do about Lyon in an objective way.

There have been signs lately that he was starting to get it together, and I - along with, I note, Jeff Dunne - are now more inclined to keep him than not

The basic problem with Lyon is that, after two seasons, he still doesn't look half as good a coach as GT. So the whole premise behind sacking GT and bringing in Lyon has been conclusively disproved

Let's face it, a truly promising coach would have been able, in his second season, to get us across the line and into the top 4 against the decimated Pies last Saturday. Paul Roos and Neil Craig achieved this sort of feat at this point in their coaching careers. So Lyon aint that promising really, is he?

But sacking Lyon now begs the question of who we would get to replace him

Williams would be terrific, but my gut feeling is that - if he were to come to Melbourne - it would probably be to a top team like the Bombers or the Pies

So were stuck with Lyon, and will have to do what we can to make him a better coach: eg, by appointing a mentor

As so many have said, long-term coaching stability is one of the keys to success at any professional sporting club

So, every week that goes by, the events of Sept 2006 just look more and more ridiculous

No wonder the GT bashers have gone quiet lately!!

You are a fairdinkum tool. Your objective and "balanced" views are more lopsided that the Titanic was before she went down.

Those of us that aren't GT bashers? WTF? So now you have a superior intelligence to anyone who disagrees with your view?

FFS, you would have to be the founding member, President and #1 ticket holder of the Sack Lyon Club. And yet you're objective... That's about as believeable as Johnny Howard saying he wants to co operate with the ACTU

So now that things aren't going too well, you stick you're head up again with this condescending holier-than-thou crap?

Same old comparisons with GT Please bring some fresh intelligence to the table. Disporoved? Who cares. You insult the GT bashers, yet still rehash the same tired old one liner ffs.

On the one hand, you're inclined to keep him, but then again he's crap? Make up you're mind.

Now you want Williams? Gee he's done well this year hasn'y he?

One aspect you overlook in your FGTC (Fantasy GT Coach) world is that both Craig and Roos came in after being associated a long time with the club. RL ain't.

AND, I'll still argue that GT inherited a better list than RL... and GT had better draft choices including BJ who fell into his lap.

So remind me again... how good was GT at the end of year 2??????? A team with Hamill, Gherig, Loewe, Burke, Jones, Everitt, Hall, Voss, Harvey, Lenny, Roo, Kosi... a younger Baker and Thompson??? If you wanna draw comparisons, then we should have been playing finals in 02 and 03.

But I guess you're correct. This is still the same list as 2008 isn't it?

Please refrain from coming on here pretending to like RL and then use the post to stick the knives. It's an insult to my intelligence. I respect you better when you openly state that you want RL sacked.

Give it up, dude. As everyone one of your same old RL sucks go by, you sound more and more ridiculous.

GT is gone. History, not you or I - will judge the 06 sacking as a right or wrong move. If Lyon is the wrong man, time will tell. Until then, try standing by your club, the players, coach and fellow supporters.

Impressive rant. I don't appreciate being told that I don't "stand by' the players or my club. I don't have to support the coach: he came to the Saints as a gun for hire (well, not much of a gun as it turns out) and remains that.

As for your argument that GT inherited a better list than Lyon, I think well just have to agree to disagree)

[BAM! (shhhh)]

AND, I'll still argue that GT inherited a better list than RL... and GT had better draft choices including BJ who fell into his lap.

So remind me again... how good was GT at the end of year 2??????? A team with Hamill, Gherig, Loewe, Burke, Jones, Everitt, Hall, Voss, Harvey, Lenny, Roo, Kosi... a younger Baker and Thompson??? If you wanna draw comparisons, then we should have been playing finals in 02 and 03.

http://finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?TeamI ... 2002&Go=Go

That's the link for the '02 team. It might be a good idea for anyone who is thinking of making statements like the above to review it... at the very least to realise that Hall was playing for Sydney, Kosi played 4 games, Gherig played 12 games. It was a roster primarily built around rookies (including rising star winner Reiwoldt, playing CHB), and improved by 4 wins from '01( a season which included a mid-season coaching change) to a fantastic total of 5. The '02 team was pretty bad.

It may well be that Lyon is a better coach than Thomas after the same number of games coached. The comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense though - Thomas was at the time (at least supposed to be) a caretaker, and Lyon was brought in to win. Lyon ought to be better than Thomas after a comparable amount of time. The idea we have to wait until 2010 for results demands a patience that I just do not have.

If you want to draw comparisons, Baba's right: Lyon was hired to be a Neil Craig or Paul Roos, not another Grant Thomas. He's in a position to be compared to the year before he was hired (Craig and Ayres, Roos and Eade), rather than where he is on a learning curve. He was hired to win, not to learn.

[asiu]

He was hired to win, not to learn.

hard to argue with that

[Saints43]

AND, I'll still argue that GT inherited a better list than RL... and GT had better draft choices including BJ who fell into his lap.

So remind me again... how good was GT at the end of year 2??????? A team with Hamill, Gherig, Loewe, Burke, Jones, Everitt, Hall, Voss, Harvey, Lenny, Roo, Kosi... a younger Baker and Thompson??? If you wanna draw comparisons, then we should have been playing finals in 02 and 03.

http://finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?TeamI ... 2002&Go=Go

That's the link for the '02 team. It might be a good idea for anyone who is thinking of making statements like the above to review it... at the very least to realise that Hall was playing for Sydney, Kosi played 4 games, Gherig played 12 games. It was a roster primarily built around rookies (including rising star winner Reiwoldt, playing CHB), and improved by 4 wins from '01( a season which included a mid-season coaching change) to a fantastic total of 5. The '02 team was pretty bad.

It may well be that Lyon is a better coach than Thomas after the same number of games coached. The comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense though - Thomas was at the time (at least supposed to be) a caretaker, and Lyon was brought in to win. Lyon ought to be better than Thomas after a comparable amount of time. The idea we have to wait until 2010 for results demands a patience that I just do not have.

If you want to draw comparisons, Baba's right: Lyon was hired to be a Neil Craig or Paul Roos, not another Grant Thomas. He's in a position to be compared to the year before he was hired (Craig and Ayres, Roos and Eade), rather than where he is on a learning curve. He was hired to win, not to learn.

I shook my head when I read "AND, I'll still argue that GT inherited a better list than RL..."

GT took over a team that had some really good players in it. But who are RL's Plapp, Gale, Delaney, Powell... these blokes were absolute rubbish footballers. Rubbish. There were heaps of them on the list then.

I know that I used to sit in a lot of empty space at the dome in those 2000-2004 years. I honestly wonder how closely some on here followed us during those years.

[St.Kenny]

Tossaboy said..

I said earlier this seaon we just dont have the cattle

Gee this from the bloke who said after replacing Thomas we were destined to go that one step further. Has any one ever told you you speak SH#T mate

I've seen a lot of back flips at the diving comp in Beijing but this loser well and truly takes the gold with this one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. St.Kildas rich history of failure is epitomised by those supporters who decided to upset the apple cart 2 years ago. End of story!!!!!!

[Teflon]

Tossaboy said..

I said earlier this seaon we just dont have the cattle

Gee this from the bloke who said after replacing Thomas we were destined to go that one step further. Has any one ever told you you speak SH#T mate

I've seen a lot of back flips at the diving comp in Beijing but this loser well and truly takes the gold with this one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. St.Kildas rich history of failure is epitomised by those supporters who decided to upset the apple cart 2 years ago. End of story!!!!!!

Kunny no one takes what you say seriously I doubt that your the full quid so do find where I said we were "destined to go one step further" - if you cant can I suggest you stop your usual cr@p of just making it up/

Your not really a supporter of the club, you want the coach sacked (again round we go) and only appear on this site to demonstrate to all that your possibly in-bred when we lose - WE DONT HEAR FROM YOU Kunny when we win...why is that?

F@rk off back to troll land you freak.

[Teflon]

He was hired to win, not to learn.

Regardless of what the previous adnministration touted at the time about "the next step" I think its fair to say most right now dont reconcile with what can only be termed a naive view.

To suggest a rookie coach was going to walk in and take us in year 1 to the promise land is clearly now absurd and only those with a clear agenda for the coach to be sacked could be hanging on to such a ridiculously outdated view.

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

[maverick]

He was hired to win, not to learn.

Regardless of what the previous adnministration touted at the time about "the next step" I think its fair to say most right now dont reconcile with what can only be termed a naive view.

To suggest a rookie coach was going to walk in and take us in year 1 to the promise land is clearly now absurd and only those with a clear agenda for the coach to be sacked could be hanging on to such a ridiculously outdated view.

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

How many years did Eade take before the the Swans made the GF?
Roos and Worsfold made GF's in their 3rd and 4th seasons respectively...do you see RL doing this?

How long does the new excuse last for?

[suss]

It's nice to have you all back. I was missing this type of conversation after four wins on the trot.

[WayneJudson42]

AND, I'll still argue that GT inherited a better list than RL... and GT had better draft choices including BJ who fell into his lap.

So remind me again... how good was GT at the end of year 2??????? A team with Hamill, Gherig, Loewe, Burke, Jones, Everitt, Hall, Voss, Harvey, Lenny, Roo, Kosi... a younger Baker and Thompson??? If you wanna draw comparisons, then we should have been playing finals in 02 and 03.

http://finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?TeamI ... 2002&Go=Go

That's the link for the '02 team. It might be a good idea for anyone who is thinking of making statements like the above to review it... at the very least to realise that Hall was playing for Sydney, Kosi played 4 games, Gherig played 12 games. It was a roster primarily built around rookies (including rising star winner Reiwoldt, playing CHB), and improved by 4 wins from '01( a season which included a mid-season coaching change) to a fantastic total of 5. The '02 team was pretty bad.

It may well be that Lyon is a better coach than Thomas after the same number of games coached. The comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense though - Thomas was at the time (at least supposed to be) a caretaker, and Lyon was brought in to win. Lyon ought to be better than Thomas after a comparable amount of time. The idea we have to wait until 2010 for results demands a patience that I just do not have.

If you want to draw comparisons, Baba's right: Lyon was hired to be a Neil Craig or Paul Roos, not another Grant Thomas. He's in a position to be compared to the year before he was hired (Craig and Ayres, Roos and Eade), rather than where he is on a learning curve. He was hired to win, not to learn.

I'll stand corrected... on Hall especially.

GT was a caretaker coach for 2000 games. For 2001, he was appointed full time coach, who promised to step down if someone better came along... and according to GT and RB as a result of following the process.

That aside, he was a full time coach. Period. He had a good senior and young guns to work with IMO...

Andrew Thompson
Lenny Hayes
Nick Riewoldt
Peter Everitt
Heath Black
Aaron Hamill
Robert Harvey
Stewart Loewe
Austinn Jones
Steven Lawrence
Justin Peckett
Nathan Burke
Steven Baker
Fraser Gehrig
Stephen Milne
Brett Voss
Nick Dal Santo
Max Hudghton
Trent Knobel
Craig Callaghan
Xavier Clarke
Jason Blake
Justin Koschitzke
Matt Maguire

RL has a good senior core, and no young guns to work with. Let's agree to disagree.

Yes, the stands were empty (I was there on L1 city side).

There is no denying the success of our predecessor, but let's give RL the same time. Comparisons in general are a waste of time.

Supporters can be critical, but we have a good board, good off field structures, now let's have some patience for once, and let everyone do there jobs. Rather than go down the old "sack the coach" road which has clearly failed us time and time again.

We can argue in the fullness of time and with hindsight if sacking GT was thr right move. But that's another topic altogether.

For, now, let's sit tight and see what happens next year.

[WayneJudson42]

He was hired to win, not to learn.

Regardless of what the previous adnministration touted at the time about "the next step" I think its fair to say most right now dont reconcile with what can only be termed a naive view.

To suggest a rookie coach was going to walk in and take us in year 1 to the promise land is clearly now absurd and only those with a clear agenda for the coach to be sacked could be hanging on to such a ridiculously outdated view.

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

How many years did Eade take before the the Swans made the GF?
Roos and Worsfold made GF's in their 3rd and 4th seasons respectively...do you see RL doing this?

How long does the new excuse last for?

Ask me again in 2 years time.

[Saints43]

We can argue in the fullness of time and with hindsight if sacking GT was thr right move. But that's another topic altogether.

For, now, let's sit tight and see what happens next year.

I'm pretty sure that it's not those who are critical of RL (generally) who keep bringing up GT...

I have problems with RL for reasons listed above and many times in different posts.

Some of the most worrying aspects for me is that we don't have kick out routines. We nearly always end up with our best kicks (BJ or NDS usually) kicking the ball to someone in the pocket.

When coming out of defence we switch the play to the other side of the ground when we are outnumbered an alarming amount of times during a game.

These are things that don't rely on having a great list. I wonder what exactly we work on during those closed sessions. Part of me suspects they just have barbeques...

[Saints43]

It's nice to have you all back. I was missing this type of conversation after four wins on the trot.

Yeah. I only log in when we lose so I probably missed the joyous celebrations...

Happy with the season then?

[Saints43]

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

You keep harping on about 2004...

We weren't nearly as good March 2007 as we were September 2006. That's the problem. We went backwards significantly and as far as I can see haven't made up any ground despite list changes (wouldn't mind seeing that King/ruck lecture you gave me again...)

And I didn't expect to win the flag... and I don't mind going backwards if I can see that it's for long term gain... I just don't really see it.

[suss]

suss wrote:
It's nice to have you all back. I was missing this type of conversation after four wins on the trot.


Yeah. I only log in when we lose so I probably missed the joyous celebrations...

Happy with the season then?

Not happy but I just can't see the benefit of trotting out the same old arguments (GT v RL, 2004 list v 2007 list) time and time again after a poor loss. It's so completely boring and endless.

It's an impossible argument because of the endless number of possibilties that you can factor into the equation, i.e. :

- Aussie Jones' retirement;
- A Hamill's retirement;
- Health Black's defection;
- Gehrig's hands;
- G's 100th goal v Port;
- Goose's leg;
- Harvey's legs;
- Kosi's mojo;
- Penny's knee;
- Drafting Brooks;
- Trading Hall;
- Recruiting Fiora;

the list is bloody endless and completely monotonous and at the end of the day all you have is a mound of conjecture without any definitive answer.

My advice is to get over the past, what's done is done and can't changed. We have a coach, a good one, in fact, a good one that's getting better. We have a list, a good list but not a great list. I don't think we've made too many bad drafting/trading moves recently and if we keep on bringing kids ala Armo and McEvoy though along with the number of rookies I'm sure we'll have a bunch and can support the superstars to create a complete team capable of going all the way.

Enjoying the season? Hell no but trying to look forward, not back.

[maverick]

suss wrote:
It's nice to have you all back. I was missing this type of conversation after four wins on the trot.


Yeah. I only log in when we lose so I probably missed the joyous celebrations...

Happy with the season then?

Not happy but I just can't see the benefit of trotting out the same old arguments (GT v RL, 2004 list v 2007 list) time and time again after a poor loss. It's so completely boring and endless.

It's an impossible argument because of the endless number of possibilties that you can factor into the equation, i.e. :

- Aussie Jones' retirement;
- A Hamill's retirement;
- Health Black's defection;
- Gehrig's hands;
- G's 100th goal v Port;
- Goose's leg;
- Harvey's legs;
- Kosi's mojo;
- Penny's knee;
- Drafting Brooks;
- Trading Hall;
- Recruiting Fiora;

the list is bloody endless and completely monotonous and at the end of the day all you have is a mound of conjecture without any definitive answer.

My advice is to get over the past, what's done is done and can't changed. We have a coach, a good one, in fact, a good one that's getting better. We have a list, a good list but not a great list. I don't think we've made too many bad drafting/trading moves recently and if we keep on bringing kids ala Armo and McEvoy though along with the number of rookies I'm sure we'll have a bunch and can support the superstars to create a complete team capable of going all the way.

Enjoying the season? Hell no but trying to look forward, not back.

I'm not interested in the GT part, but why is RL getting better?

[suss]

I'm not interested in the GT part, but why is RL getting better?

I think it's fair to suggest most coaches take a year or two to get to know the caper. His comments pre and post game are less emotive and he's losing the self-protective or defensive demeanour.

I also think he's a really good match day coach. I'm still concerned about the team enthusiasm but I don't necessarily think that's his domain. On a technical basis I think he's as good as most on game day. But that's just my opinion.

[Teflon]

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

You keep harping on about 2004...

We weren't nearly as good March 2007 as we were September 2006. That's the problem. We went backwards significantly and as far as I can see haven't made up any ground despite list changes (wouldn't mind seeing that King/ruck lecture you gave me again...)

And I didn't expect to win the flag... and I don't mind going backwards if I can see that it's for long term gain... I just don't really see it.

Ofcourse you dont see it - youve been banging on about sacking the coach since the season started - why on gods earth would you start seeing what you dont want to see now?

Yeah you come out after a loss and now Kings the reason we arent playing well and thats Lyons fault and therefore we need a new coach. Very simple but its what I come to expect from your anti Lyon agenda over the past few months.

As for going on about 2004.....I think you'll find thats your grilfriends in the pro "get GT back" brigade who STILL tell us that this list is an absolute monty for a flag as it is - only a complete moron argues that now. We have the market cornered here for them.

I hope we stick with Lyon. Hes had less than 2 years and should see out his term and if then we decide not to renew then so be it. The problems are two fold:

1 we have a list that has lost some talent/experience and has aged
2 we have a coach who like it or not is a rookie. Hes made mistakes but so far I like his recruiting and think his efforts with rookie selections so far have been very good. I also think, as many did at the time, that his gets to fix long-neglected ruck problems were and are justified for pick 90.

Again you simply say "yeah but hes failed" and dont take the longer term view cause your not interested in discussing where we are at and how to improve you want the "tried and failed" st kilda approach of sack another one.

Failry predictable really.

[mad saint guy]

[GT was a caretaker coach for 2000 games. For 2001, he was appointed full time coach, who promised to step down if someone better came along... and according to GT and RB as a result of following the process.

That aside, he was a full time coach. Period. He had a good senior and young guns to work with IMO...

Watson still coach in 2000. Blight appointed in 2001 and sacked mid year. Thomas appointed full-time in 2002.

[Saints43]

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

You keep harping on about 2004...

We weren't nearly as good March 2007 as we were September 2006. That's the problem. We went backwards significantly and as far as I can see haven't made up any ground despite list changes (wouldn't mind seeing that King/ruck lecture you gave me again...)

And I didn't expect to win the flag... and I don't mind going backwards if I can see that it's for long term gain... I just don't really see it.

Ofcourse you dont see it - youve been banging on about sacking the coach since the season started - why on gods earth would you start seeing what you dont want to see now?

Yeah you come out after a loss and now Kings the reason we arent playing well and thats Lyons fault and therefore we need a new coach. Very simple but its what I come to expect from your anti Lyon agenda over the past few months.

As for going on about 2004.....I think you'll find thats your grilfriends in the pro "get GT back" brigade who STILL tell us that this list is an absolute monty for a flag as it is - only a complete moron argues that now. We have the market cornered here for them.

I hope we stick with Lyon. Hes had less than 2 years and should see out his term and if then we decide not to renew then so be it. The problems are two fold:

1 we have a list that has lost some talent/experience and has aged
2 we have a coach who like it or not is a rookie. Hes made mistakes but so far I like his recruiting and think his efforts with rookie selections so far have been very good. I also think, as many did at the time, that his gets to fix long-neglected ruck problems were and are justified for pick 90.

Again you simply say "yeah but hes failed" and dont take the longer term view cause your not interested in discussing where we are at and how to improve you want the "tried and failed" st kilda approach of sack another one.

Failry predictable really.

Glad I brought King up today. Every act more monumental than the last...

The rest of what you've written is rubbish. As usual. Not even consistent with what I've said on this page.

[Teflon]

We are not what we were in 2004 and still people ignore that fact.

You keep harping on about 2004...

We weren't nearly as good March 2007 as we were September 2006. That's the problem. We went backwards significantly and as far as I can see haven't made up any ground despite list changes (wouldn't mind seeing that King/ruck lecture you gave me again...)

And I didn't expect to win the flag... and I don't mind going backwards if I can see that it's for long term gain... I just don't really see it.

Ofcourse you dont see it - youve been banging on about sacking the coach since the season started - why on gods earth would you start seeing what you dont want to see now?

Yeah you come out after a loss and now Kings the reason we arent playing well and thats Lyons fault and therefore we need a new coach. Very simple but its what I come to expect from your anti Lyon agenda over the past few months.

As for going on about 2004.....I think you'll find thats your grilfriends in the pro "get GT back" brigade who STILL tell us that this list is an absolute monty for a flag as it is - only a complete moron argues that now. We have the market cornered here for them.

I hope we stick with Lyon. Hes had less than 2 years and should see out his term and if then we decide not to renew then so be it. The problems are two fold:

1 we have a list that has lost some talent/experience and has aged
2 we have a coach who like it or not is a rookie. Hes made mistakes but so far I like his recruiting and think his efforts with rookie selections so far have been very good. I also think, as many did at the time, that his gets to fix long-neglected ruck problems were and are justified for pick 90.

Again you simply say "yeah but hes failed" and dont take the longer term view cause your not interested in discussing where we are at and how to improve you want the "tried and failed" st kilda approach of sack another one.

Failry predictable really.

Glad I brought King up today. Every act more monumental than the last...

The rest of what you've written is rubbish. As usual. Not even consistent with what I've said on this page.

Thought King was good today....but your the footy guru demanding coaches get sacked.

At least you are consistent on that score.

Well done.

BTW - were we poorly coached today? curious on your views as to where/how and what Ross did wrong.

cheers

[maverick]

I'm not interested in the GT part, but why is RL getting better?

I think it's fair to suggest most coaches take a year or two to get to know the caper. His comments pre and post game are less emotive and he's losing the self-protective or defensive demeanour.

I also think he's a really good match day coach. I'm still concerned about the team enthusiasm but I don't necessarily think that's his domain. On a technical basis I think he's as good as most on game day. But that's just my opinion.

Funny how we see things, reckon he's always been fine in the media, never a fan of giving anything away...I find him a terrible match day coach...

[joffaboy]

So correct me if I am wrong teflon.

Ross couldn't coach in the first half, but suddenly could coach in the second?

Or Ross couldn't coach the whole game and the players ignored him and played to their "best list in the league" potential?

Has to be either one from the Lyon haters

Wheres St.Kunny???? Oh thats right we won, that anti Saints drunken troll will have a rotten week

[WayneJudson42]

[GT was a caretaker coach for 2000 games. For 2001, he was appointed full time coach, who promised to step down if someone better came along... and according to GT and RB as a result of following the process.

That aside, he was a full time coach. Period. He had a good senior and young guns to work with IMO...

Watson still coach in 2000. Blight appointed in 2001 and sacked mid year. Thomas appointed full-time in 2002.

Ys, I stand corrected. My bad.

[Teflon]

I'm not interested in the GT part, but why is RL getting better?

I think it's fair to suggest most coaches take a year or two to get to know the caper. His comments pre and post game are less emotive and he's losing the self-protective or defensive demeanour.

I also think he's a really good match day coach. I'm still concerned about the team enthusiasm but I don't necessarily think that's his domain. On a technical basis I think he's as good as most on game day. But that's just my opinion.

Funny how we see things, reckon he's always been fine in the media, never a fan of giving anything away...I find him a terrible match day coach...

I think match day is actually Lyons strength - not the media performances and frankly ive never given a shyte for the media perfiormances.

Lyon does at least make moves when we are getting beaten something we lacked at times previously - his moves this year to free up Riewioldt, to move Gram, Fishers into the middle along with Goddard in bursts have been excellent. We have improved defensively for sure and have gone backwards in the fwd area - but when you consider weve got an inconsistent Kosi replaing a Coleman medallist in Gehrig you can work out why to a degree.