The nucleus of a Premiership Team

[BigMart]

That is what everyone tries to build......

GT - had the following in mind in 2002 for....2004/05
Spine
Penny, Maguire, Hayes, Riewoldt, Gehrig
Third talls
Hudghton, Hamill
Mids
Harvey, Ball, Dalsanto, Powell, Thompson, Baker
Flankers/Wingers
Voss, Jones, Black, Peckett, X, Goddard
Rucks
Knobel/Ackland, Kosi
Small fwd/Small def
Milne/L.Fisher
Back ups
Montagna, Blake, Schwarze, Ferguson, Houlihan, A.Murray, Brooks...

What nucleus has Ross put in place in 2007 to build towards a premiership team, and is that the same quality as the 2002-2005 model that almost got us there???

My take....looking at his selections

Spine
Hudghton, Maguire, Hayes, Riewoldt, Koschitzke
Third talls
Blake, Milne
Mids
Harvey, Ball, Dalsanto, Montagna, Dempster, Armitage, X.Clarke
Flankers/Wingers
Goddard, Gilbert, Gwilt, Gram, Eddy, Jones
Rucks
King, Gardner, McEvoy
Small fwd/Small def
Schneider/Attard
Back ups
Birss, C.Gardner, Ferguson, McQualter, R.Clarke, Steven, Allen

Verdict - we are not as good, and are not going to be..

Big difference is the players who can use the footy.......which effects the devlivery, thus the ability to score.....

we defend a bit better, and attck a LOT worse...and win a lot less footy (due to a poorer second tier midfield)

[perfectionist]

Quelle Surprise!

[To the top]

The rot set in from mid 2004 when "the team" was thrashed into the ground and had run its race.

By the Carlton game, our young guns had had enough - and look at the chronicle of injuries post that particular game.

As players went down we indulged in recruiting "top up" players, and mid-fielders to boot, and did not address the core issues that (for example) 2 of our key defenders, Penny and Maguire, were in serious strife.

Even to today, the damming assessment is that, at Casey, no St Kilda listed player is capable of playing at either full-back or centre-half-back.

How many years since Penny and Maguire "fell over"?

And Maguire's problems started from that game against Carlton.

If you can get footage of him struggling off the ground late in that game, have a look at it - it is instructive of what was going on - these kids were being "burnt" to their long term detriment. And Maguire was not the only one.

And we "topped up" for depth and did not recruit for structure, for contingencies or for the future.

Plus we "burnt" the likes of Brooks, as I have covered elsewhere.

Abject resource mis-management during a period when St Kilda should have been setting itself up to be serial contenders over a 10 year period - because you have to be serial contenders to actually get there.

The early Draft Picks gave us the opportunity, and we "fluffed" it big time by not managing the resource which should have given us the foundations.

[saintsRrising]

That is what everyone tries to build......

GT - had the following in mind in 2002 for....2004/05
Spine
Penny, Maguire, Hayes, Riewoldt, Gehrig
Third talls
Hudghton, Hamill
Mids
Harvey, Ball, Dalsanto, Powell, Thompson, Baker
Flankers/Wingers
Voss, Jones, Black, Peckett, X, Goddard
Rucks
Knobel/Ackland, Kosi
Small fwd/Small def
Milne/L.Fisher
Back ups
Montagna, Blake, Schwarze, Ferguson, Houlihan, A.Murray, Brooks...

What nucleus has Ross put in place in 2007 to build towards a premiership team, and is that the same quality as the 2002-2005 model that almost got us there???

Well one could ask the question what did GT the head coach put in place to build towards a premiership?

Very little in fact of the team you listed.

And certainly he did not add a quality nucleus. But YES he did rev up and motivate what was there.

There is a lot to be said for being in the right spot at the right time.

[WayneJudson42]

That is what everyone tries to build......

GT - had the following in mind in 2002 for....2004/05
Spine
Penny, Maguire, Hayes, Riewoldt, Gehrig
Third talls
Hudghton, Hamill
Mids
Harvey, Ball, Dalsanto, Powell, Thompson, Baker
Flankers/Wingers
Voss, Jones, Black, Peckett, X, Goddard
Rucks
Knobel/Ackland, Kosi
Small fwd/Small def
Milne/L.Fisher
Back ups
Montagna, Blake, Schwarze, Ferguson, Houlihan, A.Murray, Brooks...

What nucleus has Ross put in place in 2007 to build towards a premiership team, and is that the same quality as the 2002-2005 model that almost got us there???

My take....looking at his selections

Spine
Hudghton, Maguire, Hayes, Riewoldt, Koschitzke
Third talls
Blake, Milne
Mids
Harvey, Ball, Dalsanto, Montagna, Dempster, Armitage, X.Clarke
Flankers/Wingers
Goddard, Gilbert, Gwilt, Gram, Eddy, Jones
Rucks
King, Gardner, McEvoy
Small fwd/Small def
Schneider/Attard
Back ups
Birss, C.Gardner, Ferguson, McQualter, R.Clarke, Steven, Allen

Verdict - we are not as good, and are not going to be..

Big difference is the players who can use the footy.......which effects the devlivery, thus the ability to score.....

we defend a bit better, and attck a LOT worse...and win a lot less footy (due to a poorer second tier midfield)

Another thread? Does it really matter? We are in the here and now.
Just shows that both men inherited different teams IMO.

GT had 01,02, and 03 where we finished down the ladder and the opp to recruit high draft picks. The rest is history. Even BJ fell into his lap thank's to the scum ffs.

RL did not have that luxury, and we now find ourselves in the drafting twilight zone... mid-table.

Look at what we've lost (in bold) above...

[evertonfc]

The rot set in from mid 2004 when "the team" was thrashed into the ground and had run its race.

By the Carlton game, our young guns had had enough - and look at the chronicle of injuries post that particular game.

As players went down we indulged in recruiting "top up" players, and mid-fielders to boot, and did not address the core issues that (for example) 2 of our key defenders, Penny and Maguire, were in serious strife.

Even to today, the damming assessment is that, at Casey, no St Kilda listed player is capable of playing at either full-back or centre-half-back.

How many years since Penny and Maguire "fell over"?

And Maguire's problems started from that game against Carlton.

If you can get footage of him struggling off the ground late in that game, have a look at it - it is instructive of what was going on - these kids were being "burnt" to their long term detriment. And Maguire was not the only one.

And we "topped up" for depth and did not recruit for structure, for contingencies or for the future.

Plus we "burnt" the likes of Brooks, as I have covered elsewhere.

Abject resource mis-management during a period when St Kilda should have been setting itself up to be serial contenders over a 10 year period - because you have to be serial contenders to actually get there.

The early Draft Picks gave us the opportunity, and we "fluffed" it big time by not managing the resource which should have given us the foundations.

Another interesting contribution TTT.

I'd like to go and check the footage for myself, but I'll take your word for it as you've got a history of being closer to the mark than many, many others.

Thanks for your thoughts - be good to see you post this stuff more often.

[saintsRrising]

The The early Draft Picks gave us the opportunity, and we "fluffed" it big time by not managing the resource which should have given us the foundations.

Good post...

We needed to keep building....instead we went for back -ups that were not up to it.

[WayneJudson42]

The The early Draft Picks gave us the opportunity, and we "fluffed" it big time by not managing the resource which should have given us the foundations.

Good post...

We needed to keep building....instead we went for back -ups that were not up to it.

At the risk of inviting a barrage of "stop blaming GT" responses...

How may of those decisions were directly influenced by a choaching contract which had massive bonus incentives to deliver a flag? Just a thought. Not suggesting anything sinister.

[ausfatcat]

The The early Draft Picks gave us the opportunity, and we "fluffed" it big time by not managing the resource which should have given us the foundations.

Good post...

We needed to keep building....instead we went for back -ups that were not up to it.

At the risk of inviting a barrage of "stop blaming GT" responses...

How may of those decisions were directly influenced by a choaching contract which had massive bonus incentives to deliver a flag? Just a thought. Not suggesting anything sinister.

Well to be fair if you factor those incentives in you must also factor in that it was GT that wanted and got those incentives.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

GT had 01,02, and 03 where we finished down the ladder and the opp to recruit high draft picks. The rest is history. Even BJ fell into his lap thank's to the scum ffs.

RL did not have that luxury, and we now find ourselves in the drafting twilight zone... mid-table.

The "luxury" of finishing down the bottom of the ladder? Are we being serious in saying that it's an advantage to take over a side without good players? The players that Thomas got from that "luxury", Lyon still has.

Perhaps there's from the perspective of having a learning curve to head coach, which Thomas certainly did, Thomas has had, Bailey will have... but it's not like Lyon was lied to coming in and thought it was a rebuild job - if anyone recalls, the Saints job was considered a plum. Perhaps the list was overrated, perhaps it's too much pressure coming into a club rather than being promoted (Neil Craig, Paul Roos) if you're going to show something inside the first couple of years... but if we want to be optomistic about Lyon, surely we can do better than saying Lyon didn't have the luxury of coaching crap teams...

[joffaboy]

The "luxury" of finishing down the bottom of the ladder? Are we being serious in saying that it's an advantage to take over a side without good players? The players that Thomas got from that "luxury", Lyon still has.

Riewoldt, Kosi, Hamill, Harvey, Hayes, Burke, Loewe, Gehrig, Hudghton, Hall, Everitt, were all on the list when Thomas took over.

Where is the equilevent of Kosi and Roo as draft picks, and Hamill and Gehrig as recruits in their first years for Ross Lyon?

Apples with apples FFS

[WayneJudson42]

The "luxury" of finishing down the bottom of the ladder? Are we being serious in saying that it's an advantage to take over a side without good players? The players that Thomas got from that "luxury", Lyon still has.

Riewoldt, Kosi, Hamill, Harvey, Hayes, Burke, Loewe, Gehrig, Hudghton, Hall, Everitt, were all on the list when Thomas took over.

Where is the equilevent of Kosi and Roo as draft picks, and Hamill and Gehrig as recruits in their first years for Ross Lyon?

Apples with apples FFS

Bollocks Bamm!

JB sums it up. Then he got BJ as well as Goose etc. I'd rather have taken over in 2000 than 2007. Oh, and don't forget who we've lost in the meantime.

[saintsRrising]

GT had 01,02, and 03 where we finished down the ladder and the opp to recruit high draft picks. The rest is history. Even BJ fell into his lap thank's to the scum ffs.

RL did not have that luxury, and we now find ourselves in the drafting twilight zone... mid-table.

The "luxury" of finishing down the bottom of the ladder? Are we being serious in saying that it's an advantage to take over a side without good players? The players that Thomas got from that "luxury", Lyon still has.

...

What do you mean exactly when you say take over a side without good players?

There was also the Blight attracted players....GTrain in his prime....Hamill...Voss..

Plus the 97 GF core Everitt , Jones, Frankie, Thommo.... plus Harvey and Max in all in their prime years.

and then emerging players like Milne and Steven Baker. There was Barry Hall too.....

..and then the fading stars in Lowe and Burke...
...and after those three groups you then add the draft kids witha swag of low picks.

GT did not just inherit "kids"....very much far from it in fact.

[JeffDunne]

Why are people so fixated on looking backwards? Or should I say so fixated in proving who is right/wrong in the great GT vs RL debate?

Shouldn't we be analysing where we're at in comparison to the top teams in 2008 rather than a team that didn't even make the GF back in 2004?

This all seems so pointless.

[joffaboy]

Why are people so fixated on looking backwards? Or should I say so fixated in proving who is right/wrong in the great GT vs RL debate?

Shouldn't we be analysing where we're at in comparison to the top teams in 2008 rather than a team that didn't even make the GF back in 2004?

This all seems so pointless.

Its just footy talk JD. I only contributed because someone said the Saints had no good players when GT took over. I begged to differ thats all.

Really all football forums are pointless. It is meaningless and just chewing the fat. It is nothing more important than that.

[saintsRrising]

A bit of history.

When RB and GT pretended to have GT apply for the St Kilda coaching job, while it was actually a sham with GT already having the job, the St Kilda Coaching job was regarded a plumb role due the quality of the list that had been assembled....and which was about to be further boosted by low draft picks in the super-draft of 2001 which was widely acknowledges as beeinga great draft to have 4 picks in the top two dozen in.

[bobmurray]

The current team is nowhere near a premiership team but i'll leave it to Ross and his band of merry men to sort out the wheat from the chaff.......

[JeffDunne]

Why are people so fixated on looking backwards? Or should I say so fixated in proving who is right/wrong in the great GT vs RL debate?

Shouldn't we be analysing where we're at in comparison to the top teams in 2008 rather than a team that didn't even make the GF back in 2004?

This all seems so pointless.

Its just footy talk JD. I only contributed because someone said the Saints had no good players when GT took over. I begged to differ thats all.

Really all football forums are pointless. It is meaningless and just chewing the fat. It is nothing more important than that.

Don't disagree as a rule JB but surely this has been done to death?

Is anyone going to change their opinion now?

[JeffDunne]

A bit of history.

When RB and GT pretended to have GT apply for the St Kilda coaching job, while it was actually a sham with GT already having the job, the St Kilda Coaching job was regarded a plumb role due the quality of the list that had been assembled....and which was about to be further boosted by low draft picks in the super-draft of 2001 which was widely acknowledges as beeinga great draft to have 4 picks in the top two dozen in.

If it was considered such a plumb role, I presume there was a long list of applicants for the job?

[BigMart]

Some very short memories

Thomas got


Group A - PRIME...
Hayes, Hamill, Gehrig, Hudghton, Jones, Voss, Black, Baker. were in their Prime in 2004-05....

Group B - Past Prime
Harvey (91-2003), Burke (91-99), Loewe (90-00), Peckett (96-98), Powell (99-01)...were all past their prime....Burke and Loewe had acutally retired.....Everitt (02) and Hall (01) moved on....when we played finals......

Group B
Roo 21, Kosi 21 (inj), Dal 20, Ball 20, X 20, Goose 20, Joey 20, Goddard 19, L.Fisher 19, S.Fisher 22, Milne 23. - were all developing players....

Ross Lyon got - In their PRIME right now

Group A - (23-28yo)
Gram, X, L.Fisher, Hayes, Baker, Montagna, Riewoldt, Schneider, Ball, Raph, Goddard, Birss, Dempster, S.Fisher, Dal santo, Blake, Maguire (inj), Milne, Blake.

Group B - 29+
King, Hudghton, Gehrig, Gardner, Harvey.

Group C - Developing (18-22)
McEvoy, Gilbert, Armo, Howard, McQualter, Gwilt, Steven, Allen, CJ, Eddy, Geary, Attard

[WayneJudson42]

Why are people so fixated on looking backwards? Or should I say so fixated in proving who is right/wrong in the great GT vs RL debate?

Shouldn't we be analysing where we're at in comparison to the top teams in 2008 rather than a team that didn't even make the GF back in 2004?

This all seems so pointless.

I guess t wil continue as log as people throw up simplistic drivel without looking at the big picture... not to mention the fact that they can't move on and continue to argue that GT was great, and we should bring back GT.

So, if people want to post accordingly, I'll continue to try and add some balance.

I started a thread about being Prez for the day, full of suggestions etc, yet all u get is the same old crap... sack Lyon, bring back GT.

It's all good fun in the end, because it's fun winding these people up.

[Teflon]

Some very short memories

Thomas got


Group A - PRIME...
Hayes, Hamill, Gehrig, Hudghton, Jones, Voss, Black, Baker. were in their Prime in 2004-05....

Group B - Past Prime
Harvey (91-2003), Burke (91-99), Loewe (90-00), Peckett (96-98), Powell (99-01)...were all past their prime....Burke and Loewe had acutally retired.....Everitt (02) and Hall (01) moved on....when we played finals......

Group B
Roo 21, Kosi 21 (inj), Dal 20, Ball 20, X 20, Goose 20, Joey 20, Goddard 19, L.Fisher 19, S.Fisher 22, Milne 23. - were all developing players....

Ross Lyon got - In their PRIME right now

Group A - (23-28yo)
Gram, X, L.Fisher, Hayes, Baker, Montagna, Riewoldt, Schneider, Ball, Raph, Goddard, Birss, Dempster, S.Fisher, Dal santo, Blake, Maguire (inj), Milne, Blake.

Group B - 29+
King, Hudghton, Gehrig, Gardner, Harvey.

Group C - Developing (18-22)
McEvoy, Gilbert, Armo, Howard, McQualter, Gwilt, Steven, Allen, CJ, Eddy, Geary, Attard

Interesting to see Thomas had the KPP player in Gehrig, Hamill, Penny, Hudgton in their prime.

To suggest Ross Lyons got the equivalent of that is absurd.

And whats prime anywa - surely prime (if your talking about who inherits what cattle) would infer that cattle at least had the ability to get on the park???? anyone truly believe Matt Maguire is in his "prime" right now? or Raph Clarke?

Listing names doesnt prove quality and its clear Lyon doesnt have anhything near what Thomas had to work with and certainly nolthing like Grant had in 04 which IMHO WAS a Premiership team if ever there was.

The benefits of youth (and weve seen that this year) cant be understated - that youthfull list mixed with the experience Grant had was superb.

We are nowhere near that now.....and wont be for some time.

We can talk game plans and instructions being carried out all day long - we dont have the cattle toperform for 4 intense qtrs against the best its time we faced facts.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

ah again clutching at straws the lot of you

do any other clubs bicker about near misses as much as you lot?

[Teflon]

ah again clutching at straws the lot of you

do any other clubs bicker about near misses as much as you lot?

I agree but its natural isnt it?

I mean for st kilda...we get some gun picks, build a strong list with a mix of youth / experience needed for a tilt at the flag ....give it 1 real shake in 04 (we were gone by 3qtr time in 05 despite what the scoreboard said) and manage to self destruct rapidly and stuff it all up.

Egos come in before finally we bare all our dirty linen in the media to the delightful sniggers of the rich clubs......

An Essendon mate seriously said to me recently he thinks the Bombers will see their next flag before st kilda.......was tough to argue with....I reckon Melb might also.....

So some frustration and venting on what coulda been is natural - changes nothing - but we all know that.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

ah again clutching at straws the lot of you

do any other clubs bicker about near misses as much as you lot?

I agree but its natural isnt it?

I mean for st kilda...we get some gun picks, build a strong list with a mix of youth / experience needed for a tilt at the flag ....give it 1 real shake in 04 (we were gone by 3qtr time in 05 despite what the scoreboard said) and manage to self destruct rapidly and stuff it all up.

Egos come in before finally we bare all our dirty linen in the media to the delightful sniggers of the rich clubs......

An Essendon mate seriously said to me recently he thinks the Bombers will see their next flag before st kilda.......was tough to argue with....I reckon Melb might also.....

So some frustration and venting on what coulda been is natural - changes nothing - but we all know that.

FOR st kilda...sums it up really

clubs and people alike succeed through changing attitudes and thought processes if need be

we have a terrible history given...

however the thoughts and feelings of the oldies remain after the 'glory' days of the 80's

at times this club is a major joke

fwiw i believe westaway is a gun