Stkilda threatens for Top 4, AFL steps in to put a stop it

[plugger66]

Jesus and i thought i was cynical.
I am not sure why anybody would bother with the AFL if they consider it so corrupt that there is an ingrained hatred against st kilda.
I have heard a few conspiracy theories, but the widespread paranoia of them against us is far- fetched. Altho I was horrified by the umpiring against west coast i see it as an isolated incident, a hometime ump being influenced by the crowd, not as part of a concerted bias.
Reading most of these posts, I would find it hilarious, if it wasn't so pathetic. i think you should compare the AFL to premier league soccer where money DOES rule all and whoever has the most money wins or Italian soccer and its corruption.
The Salary Cap and draft system make this the most equitable competition in the world, in which the wealthier clubs only have the advantage in spending more money on football departments.
So stop the whining and the inferiority complex, that marks some supporters and posters as losers.

So true.

[rodgerfox]

Jesus and i thought i was cynical.
I am not sure why anybody would bother with the AFL if they consider it so corrupt that there is an ingrained hatred against st kilda.
I have heard a few conspiracy theories, but the widespread paranoia of them against us is far- fetched. Altho I was horrified by the umpiring against west coast i see it as an isolated incident, a hometime ump being influenced by the crowd, not as part of a concerted bias.
Reading most of these posts, I would find it hilarious, if it wasn't so pathetic. i think you should compare the AFL to premier league soccer where money DOES rule all and whoever has the most money wins or Italian soccer and its corruption.
The Salary Cap and draft system make this the most equitable competition in the world, in which the wealthier clubs only have the advantage in spending more money on football departments.
So stop the whining and the inferiority complex, that marks some supporters and posters as losers.

So true.

What are your thoughts on the Gold Coast team?

Do you think they will be on the same playing field as everyone else?

[plugger66]

Jesus and i thought i was cynical.
I am not sure why anybody would bother with the AFL if they consider it so corrupt that there is an ingrained hatred against st kilda.
I have heard a few conspiracy theories, but the widespread paranoia of them against us is far- fetched. Altho I was horrified by the umpiring against west coast i see it as an isolated incident, a hometime ump being influenced by the crowd, not as part of a concerted bias.
Reading most of these posts, I would find it hilarious, if it wasn't so pathetic. i think you should compare the AFL to premier league soccer where money DOES rule all and whoever has the most money wins or Italian soccer and its corruption.
The Salary Cap and draft system make this the most equitable competition in the world, in which the wealthier clubs only have the advantage in spending more money on football departments.
So stop the whining and the inferiority complex, that marks some supporters and posters as losers.

So true.

What are your thoughts on the Gold Coast team?

Do you think they will be on the same playing field as everyone else?

No they will not and cannot for the first 3-4 years or it would fall over. It is a very good time to try and get a team on the Gold Coast and in Sydney as the NRL are stuffed. How would you say they get their players. Any way they get them is going to be favourable or do you want it like the Bears did.

[stinger]

Jesus and i thought i was cynical.
I am not sure why anybody would bother with the AFL if they consider it so corrupt that there is an ingrained hatred against st kilda.
I have heard a few conspiracy theories, but the widespread paranoia of them against us is far- fetched. Altho I was horrified by the umpiring against west coast i see it as an isolated incident, a hometime ump being influenced by the crowd, not as part of a concerted bias.
Reading most of these posts, I would find it hilarious, if it wasn't so pathetic. i think you should compare the AFL to premier league soccer where money DOES rule all and whoever has the most money wins or Italian soccer and its corruption.
The Salary Cap and draft system make this the most equitable competition in the world, in which the wealthier clubs only have the advantage in spending more money on football departments.
So stop the whining and the inferiority complex, that marks some supporters and posters as losers.

and you are just plain naive.......never heard of the whispers in the sky game...ffs.........hey...i have some real good real estate i would like to sell to you.............



great...eh...the afl umpires cheat us regularly ...and some jerk comes on here and labels anyone who tries to point out the corruption...as losers.....


get used to it from that afl house apologist plugger the lug....but geez.....some of you must still believe in the good fairy and santa claus ffs.......


i actually know for a fact that one notorious umpire always rules in favour of the side he has always supported when the decision is close....and no i'm not going to name names.....so don't bother asking......


for the record......i'm hardly a loser ffs.....

[Solar]

Jesus and i thought i was cynical.
I am not sure why anybody would bother with the AFL if they consider it so corrupt that there is an ingrained hatred against st kilda.
I have heard a few conspiracy theories, but the widespread paranoia of them against us is far- fetched. Altho I was horrified by the umpiring against west coast i see it as an isolated incident, a hometime ump being influenced by the crowd, not as part of a concerted bias.
Reading most of these posts, I would find it hilarious, if it wasn't so pathetic. i think you should compare the AFL to premier league soccer where money DOES rule all and whoever has the most money wins or Italian soccer and its corruption.
The Salary Cap and draft system make this the most equitable competition in the world, in which the wealthier clubs only have the advantage in spending more money on football departments.
So stop the whining and the inferiority complex, that marks some supporters and posters as losers.

So true.

What are your thoughts on the Gold Coast team?

Do you think they will be on the same playing field as everyone else?

No they will not and cannot for the first 3-4 years or it would fall over. It is a very good time to try and get a team on the Gold Coast and in Sydney as the NRL are stuffed. How would you say they get their players. Any way they get them is going to be favourable or do you want it like the Bears did.

They have 3 years of drafting and development. Just the fact that you will have a collection of developed 21 year olds peppered with some older players will mean they might not make the finals in the first couple of years but I would not bother with the area if it's full of bandwagoners who need the "right" to play finals straight up. Once you get 2 years in you will have a collection of very developed 23-24 year olds who will compete with most teams.

why would giving them 15 of the top 20 picks each year in the draft is a travesty. To compare this to the bears is silly at the extreme. Point one is that there is already an AFL team in QLD, a group of good players drafted from queensland. Point two, they are not just bought together in one year. This team will develop through the QAFL and VFL over 3 years so that the supporters up there will have a conection to this group even before they start their first season.

The fact that clubs are looking to go extra hard with this draft shows that the next 3-5 will be so slim of pickings it's a joke.

I'm still waiting on the answer on why Head has ever been allowed to umpire a game again, including saints games.

I'm still waiting on how it's possible for all stats to be equal and yet the free kick count can be 29 - 10

I'm still waiting on how stopping and having a player clock his nose into the back of your head deserves a suspension.

I'm still waiting on why an umpire is allowed to continue to umpire the week after he signals the wrong way, allows the game to continue and costs a team a goal.

I'm still waiting on why kosi fot 125 points and didak got none.

I'm still waiting on why we are forced to play brisbane in brisbane and freo in perth EVERY year....

nah I'm paranoid kiddies

[rodgerfox]

No they will not and cannot for the first 3-4 years or it would fall over. It is a very good time to try and get a team on the Gold Coast and in Sydney as the NRL are stuffed. How would you say they get their players. Any way they get them is going to be favourable or do you want it like the Bears did.

So it's fixed?

[stinger]

No they will not and cannot for the first 3-4 years or it would fall over. It is a very good time to try and get a team on the Gold Coast and in Sydney as the NRL are stuffed. How would you say they get their players. Any way they get them is going to be favourable or do you want it like the Bears did.

So it's fixed?

[plugger66]

I have the answers. They are picking on us. Excuses. Even one old person said on here that he must be right because on the couch said the umpiring was bad. Well you know you are struggling when you say that as you could quote many more who said the umpiring made no difference. He uses Robert Walls to back his arguement and in other arguements when it doesnt suit him says Robert Walls has no idea.

Come on you losers tell me logical reasons why people want the Saints to lose.

[stinger]

I have the answers. They are picking on us. Excuses. Even one old person said on here that he must be right because on the couch said the umpiring was bad. Well you know you are struggling when you say that as you could quote many more who said the umpiring made no difference. He uses Robert Walls to back his arguement and in other arguements when it doesnt suit him says Robert Walls has no idea.

Come on you losers tell me logical reasons why people want the Saints to lose.

not what i said at all flower nut.....i said that even the guys on the couch commented on the poor standard of the umpiring....which is just a fact.....


.....i have never said robert walls has no idea...i have said that he is a wanker....and that's not the same thing....on the other hand ...you are ones of those ...and have no idea to boot......


....you tell me why the afl would want the saints to win, albert.....


anyone who has the gall to say that the umpiring made no difference has their head up their arse......4 goals from direct free kicks and another 5 from free kicks up field doesn't affect the game????....ffs...get a clue.....29 free to 10 is the same as giving the opposition an extra player.....



...tell us plugga.....does andrew know that you spend so much work time on his pc....

[plugger66]

I have the answers. They are picking on us. Excuses. Even one old person said on here that he must be right because on the couch said the umpiring was bad. Well you know you are struggling when you say that as you could quote many more who said the umpiring made no difference. He uses Robert Walls to back his arguement and in other arguements when it doesnt suit him says Robert Walls has no idea.

Come on you losers tell me logical reasons why people want the Saints to lose.

not what i said at all flower nut.....i said that even the guys on the couch commented on the poor standard of the umpiring....which is just a fact.....


.....i have never said robert walls has no idea...i have said that he is a wanker....and that's not the same thing....on the other hand ...you are ones of those ...and have no idea to boot......


....you tell me why the afl would want the saints to win, albert.....

Id rather you answer my question first. So the AFL told the umpires to umpire like that. Well that makes perfect sense.

[stinger]

I have the answers. They are picking on us. Excuses. Even one old person said on here that he must be right because on the couch said the umpiring was bad. Well you know you are struggling when you say that as you could quote many more who said the umpiring made no difference. He uses Robert Walls to back his arguement and in other arguements when it doesnt suit him says Robert Walls has no idea.

Come on you losers tell me logical reasons why people want the Saints to lose.

not what i said at all flower nut.....i said that even the guys on the couch commented on the poor standard of the umpiring....which is just a fact.....


.....i have never said robert walls has no idea...i have said that he is a wanker....and that's not the same thing....on the other hand ...you are ones of those ...and have no idea to boot......


....you tell me why the afl would want the saints to win, albert.....

Id rather you answer my question first. So the AFL told the umpires to umpire like that. Well that makes perfect sense.

i don't know why thew umpires were so crap....never said i did albert....

[plugger66]

I have the answers. They are picking on us. Excuses. Even one old person said on here that he must be right because on the couch said the umpiring was bad. Well you know you are struggling when you say that as you could quote many more who said the umpiring made no difference. He uses Robert Walls to back his arguement and in other arguements when it doesnt suit him says Robert Walls has no idea.

Come on you losers tell me logical reasons why people want the Saints to lose.

not what i said at all flower nut.....i said that even the guys on the couch commented on the poor standard of the umpiring....which is just a fact.....


.....i have never said robert walls has no idea...i have said that he is a wanker....and that's not the same thing....on the other hand ...you are ones of those ...and have no idea to boot......


....you tell me why the afl would want the saints to win, albert.....

Id rather you answer my question first. So the AFL told the umpires to umpire like that. Well that makes perfect sense.

i don't know why thew umpires were so crap....never said i did albert....

You have suggested in other threads that they may have backed WCE. Just wondering if it was that or the AFL's influence or just maybe it was a combination of poor umpiring and undisciplined footy by us.

[HarveysDeciple]

It's one thing to suggest a conspiracy which is incorrect and silly.

It's another to say poor umpiring can cost teams games which is correct.

[saint66au]

It's one thing to suggest a conspiracy which is incorrect and silly.

It's another to say poor umpiring can cost teams games which is correct.

Exactly right..well said HD

[Saints in 20??]

I dont like being called a jerk when i express my opinions stinger and if you felt that my post was directed at you specifically as i mentioned losers thats your own problem.
Corruption? cheats us regularly? "i know for a factblah blah blah" something that you won't in any way prove.
Why the hell do u follow football at all if you feel so persecuted. Go whine somewhere else about some other thing or strike a blow for good against evil in the AFL.
I'm hardly naive, I do believe that the AFL has power brokers and minnows and some umpires are biased but christ, get a grip.
I'm sure you sit at the football with your alfoil hat to stop the CIA reading your mind. Unfortunately they'll need a more powerful scope to read something that small and twisted.

[Solar]

I have the answers. They are picking on us. Excuses. Even one old person said on here that he must be right because on the couch said the umpiring was bad. Well you know you are struggling when you say that as you could quote many more who said the umpiring made no difference. He uses Robert Walls to back his arguement and in other arguements when it doesnt suit him says Robert Walls has no idea.

Come on you losers tell me logical reasons why people want the Saints to lose.

you answer my questions first

These are not excuses, they were questions. I am still wanting for answers to these questions. Do I have to repeat them.

We are not losers, we are analysising certain parts of a game, prior game and the direction of the AFL.

I can tell you why the umpiring department as a whole wanted us to lose the "whispers in the sky" game. It's because their ego's were hurt by a coach and thus they wanted revenge. They were caught out admitting to this. The fact that there was no investigation and change to the result to make it "Fair" (see sirengate) didn't happen was terrible. That they allowed them to continue to umpire afterwards is giving match fixing a green light.

So I ask again, how was these three umpires allowed to umpire again? Especially in the light of the goal umpire who is going to be sacked for not getting a point signal in during the crows v sydney match.

I did notice you ignore my questions about the fixing of the draft despite the fact that they will have ample time to build a competative team.

I still wait on answers to the other questions posted above. I have not once during these questions suggested that they led to us losing points. The closest I came is suggesting that fixing a game should result in the changing of the results and points awarded to stkilda. Otherwise I suggest that yes they did effect game outcomes, final places and income generated. It may have even effected players careers. But lets cast it all aside and just ask those dozen or so interesting questions.

In isolation they can be written off as "thats life" but when added up over a short period of time (3-4 years at the maximum), common sense suggests that either those in power have an agenda or have decided not to fix up a whole host of problems. Personally I think it's a little of the former, and a bit of the later.

If that makes me a loser, then anyone who questions the status quo should be regarded as losers.

btw plugger66, it might happen to other teams but guess what, last time I checked this is a saints forum.... I don't care if say the dogs where screwed, I care about my club...

[joffaboy]

I can tell you why the umpiring department as a whole wanted us to lose the "whispers in the sky" game. It's because their ego's were hurt by a coach and thus they wanted revenge. They were caught out admitting to this. The fact that there was no investigation and change to the result to make it "Fair" (see sirengate) didn't happen was terrible. That they allowed them to continue to umpire afterwards is giving match fixing a green light.

there was an investigation. It occurred after Adrian Anderson first refused to conduct one and was then forced to with the Tony Jones revelations. It was then swept under the carpet and the crooked umpire Dick Head went on TV denying he said what he had said even though Tony Jones and an independant witness heard EXACTLY what he said.

So we have an umpire who admitted to corrupting a game shielded vby Anderson and Demetriou and the corrupt cheat still umpires.

But according to plugger66 that didn't happen

So I ask again, how was these three umpires allowed to umpire again? Especially in the light of the goal umpire who is going to be sacked for not getting a point signal in during the crows v sydney match.

Because the AFL has a vested interest not to allow perceived corruption to flourish in football. Thousand s of jobs and millions of $$ depend on the integrity of the AFL.

therefore the Saints are the fall guy and the finances are protected.

I did notice you ignore my questions about the fixing of the draft despite the fact that they will have ample time to build a competative team.

Interestingly plugger66 admits that if the draft isn't corrupted the playing field even more sloped the new franchise wont survive. So there is corruption in degrees and depending on how much money there is to be made. Sounds like a Sopranos episode

The closest I came is suggesting that fixing a game should result in the changing of the results and points awarded to stkilda. Otherwise I suggest that yes they did effect game outcomes, final places and income generated. It may have even effected players careers. But lets cast it all aside and just ask those dozen or so interesting questions.

No solar it is easier to call us all losers and whingers and post sarcastic one line posts than to ceitically examine the apparent (to everyone but you know who) inconsistancies that allow things like

a) whispers in the sky/ corrupt umpires
b) The Sydney discount
c) where a team that has done nothing wrong gets docked two points in 2006 but in 2008 a team cheats with 19 men to get a draw and the AFl falls over themselves to bring in a rule so the team that has cheated doesn't get the two points docked.
d) a player is give 7 weeks for something not on video while a bloke who king hits another and it is captured gets 7 weeks and is given 3 weeks discoutn
e) why a player jumper punches and gets a week while another does the same thing a week later and gets nothing.

In isolation they can be written off as "thats life" but when added up over a short period of time (3-4 years at the maximum), common sense suggests that either those in power have an agenda or have decided not to fix up a whole host of problems. Personally I think it's a little of the former, and a bit of the later.

I prefer to lean toward incompetency over conspirarcy however the litany of inconsistancies that continue to be perpetuated by the AFl cannot be swept under the carpet no matter how much the AFL acolytes try.

If that makes me a loser, then anyone who questions the status quo should be regarded as losers.

Dont you know that if the powers that be cant control you they will try to discredit you. Easy and lazy to label anyone who wants answers as "a loser". A bit more difficult to actually answer the questions especially with a cowed and compliant media.

btw plugger66, it might happen to other teams but guess what, last time I checked this is a saints forum.... I don't care if say the dogs where screwed, I care about my club...

No only Saints fans are whingers. Every team has had whispers in the sky two points taken off them for playing to the whistle had players got 7 weeks for something nobody saw had a player put out for a jumper punch and the next week a player from another team gets let off.

Yup happens to every team

[stinger]

I dont like being called a jerk when i express my opinions stinger and if you felt that my post was directed at you specifically as i mentioned losers thats your own problem.
Corruption? cheats us regularly? "i know for a factblah blah blah" something that you won't in any way prove.
Why the hell do u follow football at all if you feel so persecuted. Go whine somewhere else about some other thing or strike a blow for good against evil in the AFL.
I'm hardly naive, I do believe that the AFL has power brokers and minnows and some umpires are biased but christ, get a grip.
I'm sure you sit at the football with your alfoil hat to stop the CIA reading your mind. Unfortunately they'll need a more powerful scope to read something that small and twisted.

your naive alright.....and flowering rude to boot... .. and you can stop with stop with the cia crap.....ffs......bet you sit at the footy with your mum ...a flask of tea, a beanie on your egg shapped bald head and a rug over your legs...ffs......

[Solar]

joffaboy

Thankyou for spending time answering those questions. Yes you agree with most of what I say but the real respect is that you took on each question and tried to use reason and fact to answer them.

Personally I would not call what anderson did an investigation. If it had been collingwood for instance there would have been a royal comission.

I want to also note how cute it was that on finding out about the missed point, the swans have reserved their right to contest it if it effects their percentage and thus affects their final ladder placement.

Are they going to do the same if the stolen 2 points get them a home final or top 4 spot. I would be happy to financially back the kangaroo's to take the AFL to court over this cheating. Bring in the sirengate decision (changing a match outcome days after the match) as a precident and claim that they have lost out future membership and sponsorship monies of missing a top 4 spot. There is a very good chance that the kangaroos will end up lower on the ladder because of this situation.

Someone needs to stand up to the management at AFL house. Teams missing top 4 (we would have made top 4 if not for sirengate) can lead to a lesser chance to push deeper into september. Might mean 100k in sponsorship by saying "we made a prelim" compared to "we went out in the first week playing away".

anyway thats my rant.

Anyone with stats come up with a bigger free kick difference over the years then 19? Thats a curiosity more then anything else.

[stinger]

I can tell you why the umpiring department as a whole wanted us to lose the "whispers in the sky" game. It's because their ego's were hurt by a coach and thus they wanted revenge. They were caught out admitting to this. The fact that there was no investigation and change to the result to make it "Fair" (see sirengate) didn't happen was terrible. That they allowed them to continue to umpire afterwards is giving match fixing a green light.

there was an investigation. It occurred after Adrian Anderson first refused to conduct one and was then forced to with the Tony Jones revelations. It was then swept under the carpet and the crooked umpire Dick Head went on TV denying he said what he had said even though Tony Jones and an independant witness heard EXACTLY what he said.

So we have an umpire who admitted to corrupting a game shielded vby Anderson and Demetriou and the corrupt cheat still umpires.

But according to plugger66 that didn't happen

So I ask again, how was these three umpires allowed to umpire again? Especially in the light of the goal umpire who is going to be sacked for not getting a point signal in during the crows v sydney match.

Because the AFL has a vested interest not to allow perceived corruption to flourish in football. Thousand s of jobs and millions of $$ depend on the integrity of the AFL.

therefore the Saints are the fall guy and the finances are protected.

I did notice you ignore my questions about the fixing of the draft despite the fact that they will have ample time to build a competative team.

Interestingly plugger66 admits that if the draft isn't corrupted the playing field even more sloped the new franchise wont survive. So there is corruption in degrees and depending on how much money there is to be made. Sounds like a Sopranos episode

The closest I came is suggesting that fixing a game should result in the changing of the results and points awarded to stkilda. Otherwise I suggest that yes they did effect game outcomes, final places and income generated. It may have even effected players careers. But lets cast it all aside and just ask those dozen or so interesting questions.

No solar it is easier to call us all losers and whingers and post sarcastic one line posts than to ceitically examine the apparent (to everyone but you know who) inconsistancies that allow things like

a) whispers in the sky/ corrupt umpires
b) The Sydney discount
c) where a team that has done nothing wrong gets docked two points in 2006 but in 2008 a team cheats with 19 men to get a draw and the AFl falls over themselves to bring in a rule so the team that has cheated doesn't get the two points docked.
d) a player is give 7 weeks for something not on video while a bloke who king hits another and it is captured gets 7 weeks and is given 3 weeks discoutn
e) why a player jumper punches and gets a week while another does the same thing a week later and gets nothing.

In isolation they can be written off as "thats life" but when added up over a short period of time (3-4 years at the maximum), common sense suggests that either those in power have an agenda or have decided not to fix up a whole host of problems. Personally I think it's a little of the former, and a bit of the later.

I prefer to lean toward incompetency over conspirarcy however the litany of inconsistancies that continue to be perpetuated by the AFl cannot be swept under the carpet no matter how much the AFL acolytes try.

If that makes me a loser, then anyone who questions the status quo should be regarded as losers.

Dont you know that if the powers that be cant control you they will try to discredit you. Easy and lazy to label anyone who wants answers as "a loser". A bit more difficult to actually answer the questions especially with a cowed and compliant media.

btw plugger66, it might happen to other teams but guess what, last time I checked this is a saints forum.... I don't care if say the dogs where screwed, I care about my club...

No only Saints fans are whingers. Every team has had whispers in the sky two points taken off them for playing to the whistle had players got 7 weeks for something nobody saw had a player put out for a jumper punch and the next week a player from another team gets let off.

Yup happens to every team

good post jb....no great post......for once i agree with you....don't suppose the jerk will have the balls to call you a lunatic though.....or tell you to stop whinging or piss off.....

[joffaboy]

good post jb....no great post......for once i agree with you....don't suppose the jerk will have the balls to call you a lunatic though.....or tell you to stop whinging or piss off.....

Dont really mind stinger. Have been called worse

Really cant understand people who fall for the line that the AFl is straight up.

It is as straight up as the WWE. It is about making money and protecting vested interests.

So why do I bother? Dunno. But like you and everyone else here I just love our Saints I guess.

terrible shame that the AFl is corrupt.

[stinger]

good post jb....no great post......for once i agree with you....don't suppose the jerk will have the balls to call you a lunatic though.....or tell you to stop whinging or piss off.....

Dont really mind stinger. Have been called worse

Really cant understand people who fall for the line that the AFl is straight up.

It is as straight up as the WWE. It is about making money and protecting vested interests.

So why do I bother? Dunno. But like you and everyone else here I just love our Saints I guess.

terrible shame that the AFl is corrupt.

yep......




...i suppose the umpires are like you and me......grew up loving football...and bleeding for a particular club.....difficult for them to change.....


the same jerk probably thinks horse rating is on the up and up as well.....

[degruch]

joffaboy
Anyone with stats come up with a bigger free kick difference over the years then 19? Thats a curiosity more then anything else.

The free kick count was 3 to 26 at one stage!

CORRUPT. Anyone who can take a long look at the list of unique discrepencies that St Kilda has been subjected to and believe otherwise, probably also believes Tasmania's got a fair shot at an AFL team some time in the next 100 years. There's good money in keeping St Kilda down the list, but with just enough of a sniff to keep the member numbers up.

I just hope that one day we assemble a team so awesome, they can't be stopped. I would have thought we'd assembled one before Saturday's match against the Worst Coast, but apparently I was wrong. Sob.

[st.byron]

It's one thing to suggest a conspiracy which is incorrect and silly.

It's another to say poor umpiring can cost teams games which is correct.

Exactly right..well said HD

Agree with you HD that poor umpiring decisions can influence a game. To some extent. But if a team puts itself in a position where umpiring decisions have as great an impact as to influence the result, then doesn't that team bear some responsibility for their own performance?
It's just reactionary crap it is to blame a loss on umpires or to suggest that umps deliberately cheat or favour one side over another.

[st.byron]

your naive alright.....and flowering rude to boot... ..

jesus christ you're a hypocrite.
My nomination for "pot, kettle, black" post of the year.