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[Iceman234]

Interesting.

I rate X extremely highly yet struggle with rating Raph and say we won’t win a flag with Jimmy Gwilt in the team. At the same time I struggle to rate Ferg and never rated McGough apart from his stats. Guess I’m racist.

I absolutely loved Nicky Winmar, yet I didn’t rate Allan Murray. Never rated Caydn Beetham either, yet I did rate Mick Frost (as potential and love of the club) who cops an absolute pounding from some on here as an all time worst Saint. Guess I’m racist.

I honestly thought this thread was about football ability yet someone somehow turned it into a f****** race debate, and other clowns have jumped onto the back of it.

Pathetic. May as well lock the thread now cos we know where it’s going…

[BallBanger]

Gwilt is easily the most under rated player at the club. He is a long kick and has good hands. There are plenty who play a lot more regularly in the top 22 about whom you can't say that. Posters on here whinge endlessly about our lack of accurate kicking skills, but then they praise Jones and Eddy to high heaven and want to delist Gwilt (like they used to want to get rid of BJ and TS 40)

Sure Gwilt made a few mistakes in one match after playing two pretty good ones. I don't even think he should be playing down the back, but he always has a red hot go. Allen didn't make any mistakes on friday night, because he did bugger all

Some posters on here seem endlessly to cream their pants about Allen (a player with an allergy to leather), Ferguson (what he's been doing at the club for so long is a mystery to me: honestly, I can remember Nick Stone doing more), Miles (and what's his surname anyway?). Or even an honest plodder like Alex Silvagni!!

Why all the endless bagging of Gwilt and Raph? Is it racism? Perhaps, perhaps not

Anyway, its bloody tedious

You have serious issues

[villasaint]

he had a shocker on Friday night. Wouldnt go so far as to delist him. Not in out best 22 at the moment. But is taking on the third tall in the backline freeing up Fisher . Likely out this week, Wouldnt be surprise to see Allen out for Gardiner and Gwilt for schneider.

[milney044]

So if a person with dark colour has an off game you can't critisise them because its racist? Come off it, every player cops their fair share of critisism, even Dal Santo.
I personally would persist with Gwilt, we don't exactly have anyone to replace him with anyhow and we've seen he has potential so that's worth investigating. He frustrated me like you would not believe on Friday night, so have a lot of players over the years. Some of them became real talents, some did not, i am interested to see what the future holds for Jimmy.
Unfortunately i've given up on Raph, even if he has super talent i don't think his body will ever allow us to see it. The same can be said for X which is even more unfortunate because we actually have seen glimpses of his talent.
Do these comments make me racist? No, and it's the same for anyone else making these comments. They're just opinions and we get just as frustrated when Gwilt does something silly as we do with Fiora, Gilbert etc. Nothing to do with skin colour.

[BallBanger]

Funny Jeff, you seem to be the one pointing the way for people to base opinions on racism and bias against medical conditions. You also seem to insult the poster and not the opinion which makes your behaviour completely consistent.
Something doesn't need to be original to be true. I thought it up instantly after seeing the implied insult in your words.
You should learn the difference in meaning between infer and imply and then perhaps you may see the bias is in your eyes.

To say it is racist is idiotic

It seems more likely that people who think that players are picked on because they are black are the ones seeing the color not the man.

Double



The easiest cop-out in the race debate is to label people racist because they are sensitive to issues based on race.

You may disagree that the criticisms directed at players is race driven but that doesn't give you the right to call me a racist.

Agree entirely JeffDunne.

I have posted on here before the attacks on X and Raph and now Jimmy Gwilt has something more to it than just their ability.

As mb stated other players get away with being an icon of the cclub like Ferguson who has done three fifths of f all (injuries have been cruel I admit) but a young 21 year like Raph and Jimmy are called all sorts of names and are called posion etc.

easy to label and I dont know if it subconcious however there is certainly more to the critisism than the way they play.

bulls*** joff you wank

Gwilt has no footy brain has nothing to do with colour ffs

[Ralphy]

Funny Jeff, you seem to be the one pointing the way for people to base opinions on racism and bias against medical conditions. You also seem to insult the poster and not the opinion which makes your behaviour completely consistent.
Something doesn't need to be original to be true. I thought it up instantly after seeing the implied insult in your words.
You should learn the difference in meaning between infer and imply and then perhaps you may see the bias is in your eyes.

To say it is racist is idiotic

It seems more likely that people who think that players are picked on because they are black are the ones seeing the color not the man.

Double



The easiest cop-out in the race debate is to label people racist because they are sensitive to issues based on race.

You may disagree that the criticisms directed at players is race driven but that doesn't give you the right to call me a racist.

Agree entirely JeffDunne.

I have posted on here before the attacks on X and Raph and now Jimmy Gwilt has something more to it than just their ability.

As mb stated other players get away with being an icon of the cclub like Ferguson who has done three fifths of f all (injuries have been cruel I admit) but a young 21 year like Raph and Jimmy are called all sorts of names and are called posion etc.

easy to label and I dont know if it subconcious however there is certainly more to the critisism than the way they play.

bulls*** joff you wank

Gwilt has no footy brain has nothing to do with colour ffs

you are a wanker.
you have no Brain Let alone a footy brain, give the f****** Kid a chance.
he is doing the best he could do how about you go out there and do better then him.

[Teflon]

This forumjust sunk to an all time low.

The day we start suggesting the views of posters on here are somehow racially based and NOT football based is a day of shame - for the posters that have the temerity to suggest it and to slur the rest of us with what can only be described as the biggest, gutless insult of this new century.

The world has enough biggots and morons - I come here to enjoy my footy and not be dragged into a Today/Tonight love fest nor to debate issues others simply raise to suggest to us all that they may be "wordly"

Stick to the football or f@Rk off.

[milney044]

scratch wat i said - Teflon just said it better.

[plugger66]

This forumjust sunk to an all time low.

The day we start suggesting the views of posters on here are somehow racially based and NOT football based is a day of shame - for the posters that have the temerity to suggest it and to slur the rest of us with what can only be described as the biggest, gutless insult of this new century.

The world has enough biggots and morons - I come here to enjoy my footy and not be dragged into a Today/Tonight love fest nor to debate issues others simply raise to suggest to us all that they may be "wordly"

Stick to the football or f@Rk off.

Teffers i am with you on this. It is a disgrace that anyone could even think it is racist. I would say Rixy and Brooks have copped the most on here over the last 2-3 years and they look white to me. If people think Jimmy is no good it has nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

[Teflon]

This forumjust sunk to an all time low.

The day we start suggesting the views of posters on here are somehow racially based and NOT football based is a day of shame - for the posters that have the temerity to suggest it and to slur the rest of us with what can only be described as the biggest, gutless insult of this new century.

The world has enough biggots and morons - I come here to enjoy my footy and not be dragged into a Today/Tonight love fest nor to debate issues others simply raise to suggest to us all that they may be "wordly"

Stick to the football or f@Rk off.

Teffers i am with you on this. It is a disgrace that anyone could even think it is racist. I would say Rixy and Brooks have copped the most on here over the last 2-3 years and they look white to me. If people think Jimmy is no good it has nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

Im not sure of Blakes heritage but geez.....hes copped some.

Its cheap, poor, genuinely insulting and lazy.

[Iceman234]

This forumjust sunk to an all time low.

The day we start suggesting the views of posters on here are somehow racially based and NOT football based is a day of shame - for the posters that have the temerity to suggest it and to slur the rest of us with what can only be described as the biggest, gutless insult of this new century.

The world has enough biggots and morons - I come here to enjoy my footy and not be dragged into a Today/Tonight love fest nor to debate issues others simply raise to suggest to us all that they may be "wordly"

Stick to the football or f@Rk off.

Teffers i am with you on this. It is a disgrace that anyone could even think it is racist. I would say Rixy and Brooks have copped the most on here over the last 2-3 years and they look white to me. If people think Jimmy is no good it has nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

Im not sure of Blakes heritage but geez.....hes copped some.

Its cheap, poor, genuinely insulting and lazy.

Back you both here.

Sad and pathetic, as per my reasons outlined above.

[WayneJudson42]

What a sad post.

MB, to raise the spectre of race is pyss poor. For others to jump on board is disgraceful.

Skin colour not withstanding, I am appalled at some of the comments on this forum. If we start a post about Raph, it will grow to 10 pages in a few hours. Yet I noticed that when it came out about his illness and dad's illness, the show of support was only two pages long.

Criticise a player by all means and judge his abitlity, but leave the personal attacks out of this (same goes for fellow posters).

If you're serious, why not go up to him and other players at training and repeat your remarks you bunch of gutless tosspots.

[joffaboy]

You people are delusional if you dont think a lot of critisism is racially based.

I am not saying that if you critisise Jimmy or Raph you are racist. Dont be so defensive. It is not the usual posters here who will give a genuine critic of a player and his shortcomings, it is the occasional poster who only comes on to bag with such vitriol and hate that you have to think that if it is not concious there must be something subconcious to their excesses.

I still hear racist idiocies in the crowd. People think they can say what they want about a player because of the colour of their skin. On an internet forum you cant be so overt and some of the constant barrage of critisism toward first Raph and now Jimmy makes you wonder.

For the record I think both Raoh and Jimmy have some way to go before I am confident they are seniorp 22 players. I think they have a lot of development and that Jimmy had an absolute shocker on Friday night.

Raph also deserved some critisism - tempered somewhat after finding he has a severe medical condition - and is not in our starting 22. he does not think quick enough, seemed ponderous, and lacking in leg speed.

So there you go i have critisised both boys. But I didn't resort to vitriol and hate and calling them posion and pathetic and other pathetically hurtful insults like I have read here and heard on radio by so called saints supporters.

So dont be so bloody reactionary and defensive. I knew exactly what mb abd JD were saying and I believe they are right. If you have been stung by the posts mabye you ahve to look into your own heart and search your own motives.

If your concious is clear, as mine is when i critisise either of the Clarkes or Jimmy, why should our opinion bother you?

[joffaboy]

What a sad post.

MB, to raise the spectre of race is pyss poor. For others to jump on board is disgraceful.

Skin colour not withstanding, I am appalled at some of the comments on this forum. If we start a post about Raph, it will grow to 10 pages in a few hours. Yet I noticed that when it came out about his illness and dad's illness, the show of support was only two pages long.

Criticise a player by all means and judge his abitlity, but leave the personal attacks out of this (same goes for fellow posters).

If you're serious, why not go up to him and other players at training and repeat your remarks you bunch of gutless tosspots.

hear hear.

[WayneJudson42]

JB, I fully get what you're saying.

My point is this: Players of all types have been given a shellacking on this forum. But when it's an indigenous palyer, why bring up race?

If people only criticised Raph or JG, then fair enough. But no one has been spared.

To bring up race is cruel, dude. You can't imply that people are racist. It's like Plugger been called a pedo the other day. Nasty. Why raise it? Just lights fires and gives people another excuse to spew out the vitriol.

Why make stupid, naive, inflamatory suggestions?

[Dan Warna]

did anyone read that disgraceful thread started by someone purporting to be a st kilda supporter on raphael when he came out with his illness?

There are racists around, most don't intend to be, some are overt.

I hate everyone equally.

[skeptic]

FOr mine, Gwilt has climbed over Ferguson and Charlie in the pecking order... wouldn't delist him myself. Still needs to improve though.

Lots of love here for X which is interesting as in 6 years on the list he has never gotten his body right.
It only took Raph 4 years to get his body right... at least the boys playing an entire season (touch wood).

[Iceman234]

Have gone back over the whole thread and the racism card was originally brought up by meher baba, but in a way that was "perhaps, perhaps not". Didn't deserve the response it got.

Was rebuked by P66 and Saints in 20??

Was then raised again by JeffDunne as "I have no doubt there's an element of racism in the vitriol directed at the two."

Bob_71 was actually light hearted and made a subtle reference – but was all positive and in favour of Jimmy.

From there it just got nasty as far I can see, between those who see it as racist and those who say it’s not.

FFS grow up.

Tell you what, as shown in my posts I rate or don’t rate heaps of our players of various nationalities, colour, religious denominations etc etc. regardless.

I will be at training tomorrow and at Livewire Saturday night if anyone wants to come up and tell me I’m a racist or an anti-racist (if that exists).

I’d prefer you just buy me a beer though and we support the Saints.

[fonz_#15]

if you buy me a beer we have a deal iceman

[Ralphy]

how much are the beers there?

[Iceman234]

if you buy me a beer we have a deal iceman

As above pal, you buy mine.

You have a lot to learn you young'uns.

You gonna be there though? At training?

[saintsRrising]

Gwilt is easily the most under rated player at the club. He is a long kick and has good hands. There are plenty who play a lot more regularly in the top 22 about whom you can't say that. Posters on here whinge endlessly about our lack of accurate kicking skills, but then they praise Jones and Eddy to high heaven and want to delist Gwilt (like they used to want to get rid of BJ and TS 40)

Sure Gwilt made a few mistakes in one match after playing two pretty good ones. I don't even think he should be playing down the back, but he always has a red hot go. Allen didn't make any mistakes on friday night, because he did bugger all

Some posters on here seem endlessly to cream their pants about Allen (a player with an allergy to leather), Ferguson (what he's been doing at the club for so long is a mystery to me: honestly, I can remember Nick Stone doing more), Miles (and what's his surname anyway?). Or even an honest plodder like Alex Silvagni!!

Why all the endless bagging of Gwilt and Raph? Is it racism? Perhaps, perhaps not

Anyway, its bloody tedious

A dose of irony in this post as I very much see Gwilt as the new Troy Schwarze....that is a very good athlete but with poor football judgement.

Gwilt like 40 has the opportunity to improve...but like 40 if he does not he will go.

This has nothing to do with Gwilt being black, nor that Schwaze is I think German for black.....but a lack of football smarts.

All those that keep raisng the racism card forget that Nicky Winmar was one of the greatest players ever to play for the Saints....nothing to do with his skin color and everything to do with his talent.

[JeffDunne]

So if a person with dark colour has an off game you can't critisise them because its racist?.

That's not what was said and you and others bloody well know it. The reaction from you, Iceman, Saints in 20?? and the SS resident fukwit Teffers are typical of people unable to debate these topics.

Rather than grasp what people are suggesting you're running around labelling individuals racists. I've heard at least 4 comments directed at Gwilt in the last 3 weeks that are nothing short of straight out racism. If I saw the same here I'd call it out too.

The only people I can see in this thread that have been called racist are MB and myself for discussing it.

Grow up.

I'd throw that directive at Teffers but unfortunately we have ample evidence he's missed that 'window'.

[JeffDunne]

This forumjust sunk to an all time low.

No, actually I think it did that when it let you back in.

If you think this thread it bad - check your posting history.

[markp]

No doubt I've witnessed it at the footy, no doubt it's real... can't speak for this thread or this forum. Being at least aware of it and acknowledging it, is part of the price we pay for striving to be civilized....

I personally fear that Jimmy and Raph wont make it (hope like hell they do)... but I've seen some (at the game) go them and X too hard, too often for it not to make you wonder about their motives.

But then I think a lot of the vitriol poured on players and coach alike at times is disgraceful too, regardless of race.... save it for the opposition!