GT wins on both counts ...

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Teflon
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Post: # 598742Post Teflon »

perfectionist wrote:
JeffDunne wrote:
perfectionist wrote:If he had any integrity he would not have had a bar of such an agreement. The only conclusion one can draw is that the money was to persuade him from doing something that he would otherwise do. It's obvious.
The "only" conclusion?

lol

It's not uncommon to have confidentiality clauses as part of a termination agreement. It's a little unusual to have a 6 month timeline attached to payment, but being an AFL football coach is somewhat of an unusual situation.

Also, given the nature & timing of the discussion when this agreement was reached, I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest it's the "only" conclusion you could reach.

I'd like to know why the club, and Rod inparticular, were so concerned about what he might say.
What he should have done was simply say - you're sacking me, which is your right (as he did with Blight) so pay me the residual owing to me (as they did with Blight).
You're confusing what he and the club should have done.

He's just been told he's been sacked - and they wouldn't give him a reason.

What sort of reaction would you expect in those circumstances - understanding?
So, you're rationalising his poor behaviour in response to the club's. Every coach who has ever been sacked feels bad about it, but this is the first I've heard of one who has entered an agreement with the club (doesn't matter who proposed it) which gave him $100,000 so that he wouldn't " have adverse discussions with the players" or, in other words, white ant the club.

No, I'm afraid there are no examples of good behaviour in this saga, not Thomas, not Butterss, not Fraser and goodness knows who else in the admin.
Good post.

Its interesting how people can discern so easily Rod Butters poor behaviour and lack of integrity all the while quickly overlooking the fact that any "hush money" deal was readily being accepted and entered into by Thomas.......


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Post: # 598743Post Richter »

plugger66 wrote: So if you are owed money by your ex employer who sacked you even though you were doing a good job you would accept it. No one would but yep its GTs fault he was sacked and not paid correctly. Fancy wanting to look after your wife and 8 kids. Surely the club that sacked him is more important.
I agree with what you say about GT's loyalty being his family first. That makes for an honourable man.

However, I'm also glad that he is no longer making emotive statements like "I bleed for the club." I thank him for his service, but "bleed for his club?" No, Robert Harvey bleeds for his club - Luke Ball literally does on a fortnightly basis!

Going into the past, Trevor Barker bled for the club and oldtimers will I'm sure point out many others.

GT is not in this company of St Kilda men - his "I bleed for the club" whilst no doubt meant to display his love and loyalty to the Saints is in actual fact no more or less than that shown by any other ordinary supporter who once the clock strikes will always put himself and his family before that of the club.


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Post: # 598751Post Richter »

Teflon wrote: Its interesting how people can discern so easily Rod Butters poor behaviour and lack of integrity all the while quickly overlooking the fact that any "hush money" deal was readily being accepted and entered into by Thomas.......
Come on Teffers, you can hardly blame him - perhaps he did have some incendiary information - that perhaps he still has not revealed?

He also has 8 kids and a wife to support. The day the club sacks him is the day he needs to start looking out for himself and his family and putting their needs in front of that of the club. GT comes out of this reasonably smelling of roses - RB stinks. That said, GT can no longer claim to "bleed for the club".

In case anybody hadn't noticed even if you accept this court ruling - as I do - the fact remains....

1/ GT was paid $100k in unneccessary hush money.

2/ GT was paid 1.5 months severance pay ($65k) more than he needed to be.

3/ GT never paid the $15k fine levied upon him by the AFL in the wake of his comments on the umpiring fraternity - despite this having been agreed by GT and AF at the Vera meeting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What really p****s me off is that this extra $180k of OUR money will now find its way to RB in part payment of the loan from RB to GT that forms part of the basis of this whole mess in the first place.

No wonder RB was not called in court by St Kilda football club - why in the world would he want to testify against Thomas - the bloke still owes him money he does not have.


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Teflon
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Post: # 598756Post Teflon »

Richter wrote:
Teflon wrote: Its interesting how people can discern so easily Rod Butters poor behaviour and lack of integrity all the while quickly overlooking the fact that any "hush money" deal was readily being accepted and entered into by Thomas.......
Come on Teffers, you can hardly blame him - perhaps he did have some incendiary information - that perhaps he still has not revealed?

He also has 8 kids and a wife to support. The day the club sacks him is the day he needs to start looking out for himself and his family and putting their needs in front of that of the club. GT comes out of this reasonably smelling of roses - RB stinks. That said, GT can no longer claim to "bleed for the club".

In case anybody hadn't noticed even if you accept this court ruling - as I do - the fact remains....

1/ GT was paid $100k in unneccessary hush money.

2/ GT was paid 1.5 months severance pay ($65k) more than he needed to be.

3/ GT never paid the fine levied upon him by the AFL in the wake of his comments on the umpiring fraternity - despite this having been agreed by GT and AF at the Vera meeting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What really p****s me off is that this extra $180k of OUR money will now find its way to RB in part payment of the loan from RB to GT that forms part of the basis of this whole mess in the first place.

No wonder RB was not called in court by St Kilda football club - why in the world would he want to testify against Thomas - the bloke still owes him money he does not have.
8 kids or not thats all a little to convenient for mine.

RB takes his rightful whack for this but dont tell me for 1 sec Grant Thomas comes out smelling roses.. :shock:

Your talking ethics, values at an individual level - Thomas WAS agreeable to a deal that saw him stand to collect $100k IF he could simply not bag the club. A club he told us all he "bled for". You cant have it both ways...you dont turn values and ethics "on and off".

As for the moeny somehow eventually going to Butters - here again is a question of ethics for mine - if you cant afford to pay it back cause youve got 8 kids dont borrow $1m and then argue it was at "mates rates".

Butters looks ordinary in this but be sure Thomas stinks also and it aint roses.


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Post: # 598764Post St. Luke »

ratismeat wrote:Good on him, if he was owed the money he deserves to be paid. Hopefully last chapter in all this crap...
Agreed! Was screwed over in the end but Butt-arse! (note 1: never lend money off your so-called mates!) :P


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Post: # 598767Post evertonfc »

St. Luke wrote:
ratismeat wrote:Good on him, if he was owed the money he deserves to be paid. Hopefully last chapter in all this crap...
Agreed! Was screwed over in the end but Butt-arse! (note 1: never lend money off your so-called mates!) :P
Well said.


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Post: # 598777Post The OtherThommo »

If this is the way it is to be, so be it. Grant wins, halle - freakin - lulah. Have fun on SEN. Then again, I believe the shockin' god awful fat prick from Brighton future, ain't much to look forward to.

Still, I could be wrong. I saw Grant at Toplolino's in Fitzroy St, after being beaten by the Eagles in '06. He was there with Eddie, and Maguire told Fat f*** what he needed to do to get people on side. FF had no idea, and Eddie just pressed on. The fact that they're both now Fat f**** ain't my problem.

It's over for Ed, and it's over for Grantley - that's how it goes.

Eddie used to be so clever and Grant used to represent tossers.

And, now, neither of them have a future. Oh, sob, sob, sob. Fuckheads.


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Post: # 598800Post Ray Broughton »

Richter wrote:
Teflon wrote: Its interesting how people can discern so easily Rod Butters poor behaviour and lack of integrity all the while quickly overlooking the fact that any "hush money" deal was readily being accepted and entered into by Thomas.......
Come on Teffers, you can hardly blame him - perhaps he did have some incendiary information - that perhaps he still has not revealed?

He also has 8 kids and a wife to support. The day the club sacks him is the day he needs to start looking out for himself and his family and putting their needs in front of that of the club. GT comes out of this reasonably smelling of roses - RB stinks. That said, GT can no longer claim to "bleed for the club".

In case anybody hadn't noticed even if you accept this court ruling - as I do - the fact remains....

1/ GT was paid $100k in unneccessary hush money.

2/ GT was paid 1.5 months severance pay ($65k) more than he needed to be.

3/ GT never paid the $15k fine levied upon him by the AFL in the wake of his comments on the umpiring fraternity - despite this having been agreed by GT and AF at the Vera meeting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

up to here Richter you are spot ont.. as to GT paying RB anything remains to be seen and is pure clap trap..... Its a seperate story, one that GT and RB know and is NOT for ours to comment as we know nothing


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Post: # 598804Post mischa »

I'm just glad to see GT get some justice after the absolutely appalling propaganda regimen (which started on day one) started initially by the AFL mafia and then Buttarse thought he could hop on board and there would be no consequences remember article after article "Thomas signed a stat dec saying he was entitled to no extra leave" as a condemnation not as fact...like that was ever worth the paper it was written on. Buttarse rushing off to Caro Wilson day in day out baiting GT with one falsehood after another (In fact it's hilarious the lengths the AFL mafia went to, to salvage Butterss) and then off to SEN with that disgraceful outburst knowing full well that GT would be questioned by and then have to say something on air to his colleagues. All in all I'd say a little bit of justice was done....


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plugger66
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Post: # 598808Post plugger66 »

Richter wrote:
plugger66 wrote: So if you are owed money by your ex employer who sacked you even though you were doing a good job you would accept it. No one would but yep its GTs fault he was sacked and not paid correctly. Fancy wanting to look after your wife and 8 kids. Surely the club that sacked him is more important.
I agree with what you say about GT's loyalty being his family first. That makes for an honourable man.

However, I'm also glad that he is no longer making emotive statements like "I bleed for the club." I thank him for his service, but "bleed for his club?" No, Robert Harvey bleeds for his club - Luke Ball literally does on a fortnightly basis!

Going into the past, Trevor Barker bled for the club and oldtimers will I'm sure point out many others.

GT is not in this company of St Kilda men - his "I bleed for the club" whilst no doubt meant to display his love and loyalty to the Saints is in actual fact no more or less than that shown by any other ordinary supporter who once the clock strikes will always put himself and his family before that of the club.
That may be fair enough about Luke Ball and Trevor Barker but there is one big difference in this. GT was sacked and without any real logical reason and that is the big difference. If any employee was sacked when they were doing their job correctly and a deal was made you would expect the obligations to be met.


asiu

Post: # 598823Post asiu »

and sacked , following being white-anted during a period when for whatever **** reasons , we had a chance

outside influences aside , we did this to ourselves




**** pathetic


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Post: # 598829Post Ghost Like »

gazrat wrote:and sacked , following being white-anted during a period when for whatever **** reasons , we had a chance

outside influences aside , we did this to ourselves




**** pathetic
Live by the (white ant) sword, die by it. Experience has allowed him to play a better game and get something out of it. Anyway...

Case closed (literally), time to move on and rally behind the new board, coach and players.


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Post: # 598832Post barks4eva »

6 pages on Grant Thomas..................seriously you people need to get a life and MOVE ON!


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Post: # 598833Post RBnW »

evertonfc wrote:
Richter wrote:The wonderful days when passion ran footy clubs are gone Ev. Eddie McGuire is a great president because he's smart - not because he's passionate. Brian Waldron and Jim Watts were great administrators of the Saints because they are hard-nosed corporate administrators not because they love what they do.
Agree - but I think you need an element of passion to succeed in this industry. And, bizarre as it may seem, a little bit of charisma to inspire the masses.
Bottom line neither of us has the inside track on AF (well i don't anyhow!
I don't know Archie personally, but I know enough people within the club to know how it's being run.
Let's hope that he can make something of this Frankston deal. Turning it into reality is the single biggest issue that I will judge him on.
As will I. But I thought he was going to be judged on Moorabbin...eh...Casey Fields...eh...Frankston?

What's wrong with him; why can't he close a deal?

There's a myriad of other issues, too. Like I said, I wish he was a gun CEO, but he's not, and needs to be moved on.

Good CEOs are tough to get, but that doesn't mean you should settle for a dud.
just read the judgement, if as you keep telling all of us how good Waldron and Watts were as our CEO's, why was there no records of GT's leave and when it was taken, this claim and the case is all under their watch?
If the club AF or whoever had records of the leave taken under Waldron and Watts then there would have been no case for the leave claim? :shock: does anyone else who has read the finding and looked at the dates leave was claimed agree with this......
I don't want to bring up Waldron and how he left the club and Watts and his son again, your AF bashing is ok if its waranted but not sure you can blame him for this one.... :roll:
If there are no records of leave from the Waldron, Watts and Van Beeker days.....how is that his problem?
We can judge him on Frankston, Moorabbin and a number of other things but this one.... :?:


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Post: # 598847Post philip »

RBnW wrote:just read the judgement, if as you keep telling all of us how good Waldron and Watts were as our CEO's, why was there no records of GT's leave and when it was taken, this claim and the case is all under their watch?
If the club AF or whoever had records of the leave taken under Waldron and Watts then there would have been no case for the leave claim? :shock: does anyone else who has read the finding and looked at the dates leave was claimed agree with this......
I don't want to bring up Waldron and how he left the club and Watts and his son again, your AF bashing is ok if its waranted but not sure you can blame him for this one.... :roll:
If there are no records of leave from the Waldron, Watts and Van Beeker days.....how is that his problem?
We can judge him on Frankston, Moorabbin and a number of other things but this one.... :?:
Leave accrual and records are a financial function and whilst it ultimately goes through the CEO, the CFO is the person responsible for this. Without going over old ground, our former CFO, JVB, is widely regarded as the biggest dud to have held such a senior role (confirmed by three different sources, within the club, within the football industry and within the finance industry).

what i don't know as i haven't looked into it yet is who appointed JVB in the first place. although i also don't understand how leave accrual wasn't recorded because in most finance software packages it is done automatically when a pay gets put through the accounting software.

philip


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Post: # 598853Post Eastern »

barks4eva wrote:6 pages on Grant Thomas..................seriously you people need to get a life and MOVE ON!
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

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Post: # 598854Post Mr Magic »

philip wrote:
RBnW wrote:just read the judgement, if as you keep telling all of us how good Waldron and Watts were as our CEO's, why was there no records of GT's leave and when it was taken, this claim and the case is all under their watch?
If the club AF or whoever had records of the leave taken under Waldron and Watts then there would have been no case for the leave claim? :shock: does anyone else who has read the finding and looked at the dates leave was claimed agree with this......
I don't want to bring up Waldron and how he left the club and Watts and his son again, your AF bashing is ok if its waranted but not sure you can blame him for this one.... :roll:
If there are no records of leave from the Waldron, Watts and Van Beeker days.....how is that his problem?
We can judge him on Frankston, Moorabbin and a number of other things but this one.... :?:
Leave accrual and records are a financial function and whilst it ultimately goes through the CEO, the CFO is the person responsible for this. Without going over old ground, our former CFO, JVB, is widely regarded as the biggest dud to have held such a senior role (confirmed by three different sources, within the club, within the football industry and within the finance industry).

what i don't know as i haven't looked into it yet is who appointed JVB in the first place. although i also don't understand how leave accrual wasn't recorded because in most finance software packages it is done automatically when a pay gets put through the accounting software.

philip
Might have something to do with the fact that GT wasn't an 'employee' but his services were 'sub-contracted' through a corporate entity?
If that is the case then there would not be any need to record any leave entitlements as GT's corportat entity would be responsible for them?

Anybody with HR knowledge on here might be able to shed some light on this?
For those that are wondering why GT would choose to 'sub-contract' his services rather than be an 'employee' it would be for a number of mutually beneficial purposes including 'tax-minimization' for him.

I must say I am a little perplexed having read the Judge's ruling that there deoesn't seem to be much detail on this point - was he an employee and therefore entitle to statutory leave entitilements, or was his company a sub-contractor and therefore possibly not entitled?

The Law is 'clear cut' over employees' statutory entitlements, but not so clear cut when a 'sub-contractor entity is emplyed.

eg, If you hire a maintenance company for $50 per week t maintain your garden all year round you don't have to pay him/they holiday pay, super etc.
But if you employ a part-time gardener to look after your garden you do have to pay those statutory entitlements.


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Post: # 598947Post meher baba »

FWIW I reckon the club had assumed that GT wasn't expecting to get any rec leave

GT only made something of it after he got sacked without being told the reason

IMO the club was never going to win unless it could produce a signed contract from 2001 to the effect that GT was a contractor and not an employee, and therefore wasn't entitled to any leave

The club and its lawyers knew it couldn't do this. Which means that one of ony two points of interest to emerge from this tawdry business is the mystery of why the club chose to fight the case rather than settle

The other point of interest is the acknowledged fact that the Board refused to give GT the reasons for his sacking. This was presumably on legal advice (because any attempt to tie the sacking to GT's performance would be contestable at law). Still, it is yet another odd feature of a singularly odd chain of events

Otherwise, the outcome of the case has no particular interest from a footballing point of view and we need to move on


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Post: # 598959Post ozrulestrace »

If anyone want HR advice they should seek the opinion of Mordi Bromberg.
Isn't he part of the new ticket under Greg Westaway as well as an expert on industrial relation law escpecially for the gone but not lamented Workchoices. Hopefully he is able to provide anyone at St Kilda the advice they need about employment contracts.
And the end of the day, we can all sit there ranting and raving about who did what but the County Court in the State of Victoria has passed its judgement in favour of Mr Grant Thomas and St Kilda FC have been done in yet again by shonky men doing shonky deals.
Let's pay the money as budgeted in last year's financial report and get back to the football


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Post: # 599105Post spert »

Anyway -regardless of the outcome, GT and RL are both uncontrollable egotists who could not survive together in positions of power in the same organisation, and as is the case where egos are at the fore, the fallout is always messy.


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Post: # 599277Post saintsRrising »

spert wrote:Anyway -regardless of the outcome, GT and RL are both uncontrollable egotists who could not survive together in positions of power in the same organisation, and as is the case where egos are at the fore, the fallout is always messy.
I think you meant RB :wink:


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Post: # 599508Post spert »

spert wrote:Anyway -regardless of the outcome, GT and RL are both uncontrollable egotists who could not survive together in positions of power in the same organisation, and as is the case where egos are at the fore, the fallout is always messy.
Yep RB ..my mistake


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Post: # 599511Post rodgerfox »

More evidence that footy clubs are incredibly poorly managed businesses.

Board members should not involve themselves in football matters, and non-football people should not be in positions where their decisions have an impact on-field.

Boards hiring and firing coaches is just ridiculous.


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Post: # 599514Post Eastern »

rodgerfox wrote:More evidence that footy clubs are incredibly poorly managed businesses.

Board members should not involve themselves in football matters, and non-football people should not be in positions where their decisions have an impact on-field.

Boards hiring and firing coaches is just ridiculous.
Yeah, but we have been doing things that way for over 100 years, and we are creatures of habit. Change takes time !!


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Post: # 599516Post rodgerfox »

Eastern wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:More evidence that footy clubs are incredibly poorly managed businesses.

Board members should not involve themselves in football matters, and non-football people should not be in positions where their decisions have an impact on-field.

Boards hiring and firing coaches is just ridiculous.
Yeah, but we have been doing things that way for over 100 years, and we are creatures of habit. Change takes time !!
I know.

And when anyone tries to change it, they get stomped on by the 'boys club' that is AFL footy.


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