When did it start going wrong

[3rd generation saint]

Just like to hear your opinions when you think, or when you got worried that the club may be heading in the direction we seem to be heading.

For me two moments got me worried, the first was when GT fired Terry Daniher and Nathan Burke as assistant coaches, because I thought we had a really great coaching team then.

Also ever since Daniher left, our forward line has gotten more amd more dysfunctional.

The other moment was when it was revealed that there was a falling out and big rift between GT and Buttress.

When I heard that I started praying not again, please not when we are on the verge greatness again we tear ourselves apart.

[Ghost Like]

I think in another thread, a post by ThePunter was a fairly accurate reflection of our recent past including the rights and wrongs. I'll post the link once I find it.

I guess the defining point to this question is ascertaining when you thought everything was right.

[steph]

I think sometimes, things have already started going wrong, before we actually realise it.

The constant media attention on the GT/Butterss debacle can never be a good thing, however i felt that once GT was booted, that we would re-stabilise.

However, with the poor recruiting under GT, and the lack of youth being "injected" into our side as a result of that, i think from mid-06 onwards we were spiralling down, but managed to bluff our way through it, by just missing out on the finals last year.

It was only a matter of time that sides like the dogs and hawthorn got their act together, and exposed us as a mediocre side

[Gilbert=Legend]

The day before we sacked GT

[plugger66]

I think sometimes, things have already started going wrong, before we actually realise it.

The constant media attention on the GT/Butterss debacle can never be a good thing, however i felt that once GT was booted, that we would re-stabilise.

However, with the poor recruiting under GT, and the lack of youth being "injected" into our side as a result of that, i think from mid-06 onwards we were spiralling down, but managed to bluff our way through it, by just missing out on the finals last year.

It was only a matter of time that sides like the dogs and hawthorn got their act together, and exposed us as a mediocre side

Can you please give me the years before GT was there and after he left where we have recruited well. The only 2 good years of recruiting with the draft system was 2000 and 2001. GT was coach for the 2001 draft and MB was the coach in 2000. So GT was actually coach in the only 2 years of good recruiting, even though in one he had nothing to do with recruiting, in the last 20 years but dont let facts get in the way of the story.

[Rixroxruck]

Went wrong when we dropped Rix

[Ghost Like]

Here's the post from ThePunter in It's Butterrs Fault thread...

"It really is Butterss fault.

In 2000, Chris Connolly was almost appointed as coach of St Kilda. But RB got stars in his eyes and got Malcolm Blight for $1,000,000.

Blight didn't draft enough youngsters (only Riewoldt & Koschitzke were recruited as Under 18s), however he added Matthew Capuano, Mark Gale, Robert Powell, Craig Callaghan, Steven Lawrence, Brett Voss, Aaron Hamill & Fraser Gehrig. By 2004 only three were at the club. In 2008 only Gehrig remains, almost certainly finished.

So Blight doesn't work out and he is rightfully dismissed, as he was not willing to do the hard yards. RB hands over to his good mate Grant Thomas.

At the end of 2001, we almost hire Connolly again, but stick with Thomas. He drafts well, getting Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke, Nick Dal Santo, Matt Maguire, Leigh Montagna & Josh Houlihan into the club, as well as trading for Heath Black.

However, with this influx of young players, Thomas takes on the role of father figure, and soon becomes the messiah-like character at the club. All player interaction with the club is with him; he negotiates the contracts, rotates the captaincy, and removes deadwood. By 2003 it is obvious St Kilda are going to be a force.

Come 2004 and on-field success begins. But something happens between GT & RB, and they are no longer friends.

The pivotal night for the GT era at St Kilda comes in Round 21, 2005. The Saints are flying, having won 7 straight. Justin Koschtizke has become the form player of the competition. The right balance has been found, and the Saints have been obliterating sides.

Then, in the space of 2 1/2 hours at Subiaco, it all falls apart. By the end of the first quarter Luke Penny and Matt Maguire are injured. Penny would never play again. In the third quarter Koschitzke tears his quad muscle. Hamill is also injured.

The umpires also have a massive say. After mid-week comments by GT that umpires need to be ego-less, they pay five free kicks that result in goals. A fading St Kilda without a bench loses after the siren to the Dockers, who promptly fail to make the finals by losing to Port Adelaide the next week. St Kilda, without the injured stars, beat probably the worst Brisbane team this side of Norm Dare by 23 goals, with Milne kicking 11.

The next week a miracle, possible only because of the brilliance of Robert Harvey, and the ineptitude of Neil Craig. We have the home preliminary final we needed so badly 12 months earlier.

Two weeks later an underdone St Kilda side jumps out to a fifteen point lead in the third quarter, but fails to score another goal and is beaten by Sydney, who go on to beat West Coast in a close but dreadful Grand Final.

There are glimpses in 2006, but Hamill gets injured and is never the same, Kosi gets a fractured skull and is never the same, and after losing a final versus Melbourne with no bench after half-time, Thomas is sacked. RB looks for his complete opposite, and finds Ross Lyon.

Lyon now finds himself at a club with the wrong captain, a bunch of 22-25 year old players who aren't simply as good as they were under Grant Thomas, and an attitude right through the group that they'd rather be doing something else.

The reality is that from 2002-2006, the players played for Grant Thomas. Not the club, not the jumper, not each other. During that period, we weren't a club, we were a personality cult.

And none of that would have bothered me if we had just got one lousy premiership out of it. But looking back, the dream died in Perth in late August 2005, but the mistakes were made all the way back in 2000."

Take your pick really on where things started to go wrong...personally my vote goes to our Boards (Butterrs & Thomas) decision on the replacement for Blight. We would not have needed the 'transparent' and seemingly professional coaching appointment of Lyon had the replacement for Blight not been done by the 'Make A Wish' Foundation.

[steph]

I think sometimes, things have already started going wrong, before we actually realise it.

The constant media attention on the GT/Butterss debacle can never be a good thing, however i felt that once GT was booted, that we would re-stabilise.

However, with the poor recruiting under GT, and the lack of youth being "injected" into our side as a result of that, i think from mid-06 onwards we were spiralling down, but managed to bluff our way through it, by just missing out on the finals last year.

It was only a matter of time that sides like the dogs and hawthorn got their act together, and exposed us as a mediocre side

Can you please give me the years before GT was there and after he left where we have recruited well. The only 2 good years of recruiting with the draft system was 2000 and 2001. GT was coach for the 2001 draft and MB was the coach in 2000. So GT was actually coach in the only 2 years of good recruiting, even though in one he had nothing to do with recruiting, in the last 20 years but dont let facts get in the way of the story.

i'm not trying to make this an anti-GT thread. I agree that the years you mentioned, that we recruited well, were our only good years of recruiting, but i dont pay GT any credit for that, as with the priority picks, and the amount of research that goes into top 10 players, its hard to get those wrong.

My point is that after those pick-ups, we didnt continue to play youth, nor have we over the Lyon era, hence his current knee-jerk reaction this week of playing youth.

You can maintain a top side for a while, but if you dont play the kids, you will inevitably fail. As soon as a coaches start recruiting players from other sides, or start topping up, you know you're in trouble. GT started it, and Ross continued it.

[matrix]

........the day after the 1997 GF loss

[steph]

........the day after the 1997 GF loss

please dont ever mention that day ever again.

[casey scorp]

The day before we sacked GT

The day before we appointed GT.

The "process" was a farce.

RB had got the club back on track from a corporate perspective, but then it all went haywire. He appointed his mate as the coach.

Sure there were preliminary finals, but with our list those should have been GF's.

[perfectionist]

"When the dingo ate my baby!"

PS: my baby was a black and white pussy named Darrel.

[spert]

Its been going wrong since 1966..just a continual cycle of bad management from successive presidents and boards, endless poor recruiting, with the emphasis on quick fixes, greed, stupidity etc. I think the Saints should move to the bloody Gold Coast and start all over again.

[The_Dud]

since when we hired a coach who learnt the caper from Sydney

[emmdee]

When idiot supporters ran onto the ground in adelaide against Port to celebrate Frasers 100 th goal, we had them on toat and the Lions were done that GF...also when the club & media hung Fraser out to dry earler this year, has our forward line kicked more goals on a regular basis since? I believe that Fraser was made a scapegoat for poor coaching, why was he up across HF & wing taking marks, should have played him out of goal square with Milne/ Schneider at his feet.

[The_Dud]

When idiot supporters ran onto the ground in adelaide against Port to celebrate Frasers 100 th goal, we had them on toat and the Lions were done that GF...also when the club & media hung Fraser out to dry earler this year, has our forward line kicked more goals on a regular basis since? I believe that Fraser was made a scapegoat for poor coaching, why was he up across HF & wing taking marks, should have played him out of goal square with Milne/ Schneider at his feet.

ah yes, i agree 100%

[bobmurray]

That was such a good post from the Peanut,as posted above,summed up our immediate past as well or better than some scribes who do it for a living........

The past can't be changed so from here on in i'm just hoping that those in charge start getting it right,in all facets of the game....

[rodgerfox]

The moment Rod Butterss became a C Grade celebrity, and the moment he realised he loved it, was when 'it went downhill'.

[Enrico_Misso]

Was looking good this year till 1/4 time against the Dogs (the first time we played them).

[Teflon]

I think sometimes, things have already started going wrong, before we actually realise it.

The constant media attention on the GT/Butterss debacle can never be a good thing, however i felt that once GT was booted, that we would re-stabilise.

However, with the poor recruiting under GT, and the lack of youth being "injected" into our side as a result of that, i think from mid-06 onwards we were spiralling down, but managed to bluff our way through it, by just missing out on the finals last year.

It was only a matter of time that sides like the dogs and hawthorn got their act together, and exposed us as a mediocre side

Can you please give me the years before GT was there and after he left where we have recruited well. The only 2 good years of recruiting with the draft system was 2000 and 2001. GT was coach for the 2001 draft and MB was the coach in 2000. So GT was actually coach in the only 2 years of good recruiting, even though in one he had nothing to do with recruiting, in the last 20 years but dont let facts get in the way of the story.

so that excuses him for cr@p from 03 - 06 does it?.......cause we've "always been bad at it"

Id stick with sarcasm......its dumbed down a little....

[SaintWodonga]

Just like to hear your opinions when you think, or when you got worried that the club may be heading in the direction we seem to be heading.

For me two moments got me worried, the first was when GT fired Terry Daniher and Nathan Burke as assistant coaches, because I thought we had a really great coaching team then.

Also ever since Daniher left, our forward line has gotten more amd more dysfunctional.

The other moment was when it was revealed that there was a falling out and big rift between GT and Buttress.

When I heard that I started praying not again, please not when we are on the verge greatness again we tear ourselves apart.

I agree with your assement. I also think poor list management has not helped. Going for too many players from other clubs (not enough under 18's) Not picking enough speed, and one factor is Aaron Hamill. Our forward line is not the same. He made us walk tall, the ball gets cleared out way too easy. With him, he didn't always get 20+ possesions, but he made sure the ball stayed in forward line. He did a lot of 1 percenters that don't get stats.

The downfall of the G-train has not helped. So a strong marking full forward (who does not miss easy goals is needed, what is Jason Heatly up to? Kidding!)

Also a lack of not drafting rookies has killed us. Who knows who we missed out on. Along with giving GT way too much power, those GT years are now making RL pay for it. GT did so much damage to our club it's a joke. He was a GT man, not a Saints man. The board (at the time) are to blame too, for not pulling his head in, not spending enough on recruiting and the football department. So while the 2004 - 2006 looked good on paper for us, it has left us short in player stock and not enough 18 - 22 year olds on our list.

Bring back TD or bring in Hamill as forward coach. I think John Barker has given us nothing.

[JeffDunne]

When Miami Vice Stubble went out of fashion (again).

IIRC, it was around the time the short lived fad of lending a mate a million bucks and telling the world became fashionable.

[plugger66]

I think sometimes, things have already started going wrong, before we actually realise it.

The constant media attention on the GT/Butterss debacle can never be a good thing, however i felt that once GT was booted, that we would re-stabilise.

However, with the poor recruiting under GT, and the lack of youth being "injected" into our side as a result of that, i think from mid-06 onwards we were spiralling down, but managed to bluff our way through it, by just missing out on the finals last year.

It was only a matter of time that sides like the dogs and hawthorn got their act together, and exposed us as a mediocre side

Can you please give me the years before GT was there and after he left where we have recruited well. The only 2 good years of recruiting with the draft system was 2000 and 2001. GT was coach for the 2001 draft and MB was the coach in 2000. So GT was actually coach in the only 2 years of good recruiting, even though in one he had nothing to do with recruiting, in the last 20 years but dont let facts get in the way of the story.

so that excuses him for cr@p from 03 - 06 does it?.......cause we've "always been bad at it"

Id stick with sarcasm......its dumbed down a little....

No doesnt excuse GT but maybe you dont realise RL has a record of doing it 2 years out of 2. GT at least had one year where we drafted all young players and they probably make up a third of our best side now. Or does it work like this when we pick good players JB did it and when we pick ordinary players GT did it.

What I was getting at and should have pointed out is lack of money spent on recruiting for 20 years meant that we didnt have the ability to get the best players and that is one of the reasons we went for recycled players.

To anyone who holds GT solely responsible needs to look at our history but they will not as it will not support their arguement.

[congorozides]

when the club, fans, players and coaching staff started to believe the media hype in 2003/20004 that we were going to dominate the competition for a decade and all we had to do was stay healthy to win a flag. we all got obsessed with injury prevention, training services and lots of crap you cant control. the idea was if we had less injuries we would win the flag.

we then spent 5 years obsessing over crap and taking our eye of the ball worrying over injuries, buttersgate and all sorts of crap and forgetting the core business of developing new players and bringing new quality young guys into the team.

we just persisted with muppets and re-treads holding on to the fantasy that all we needed was an injury free run to win the flag.

in the meantime we got slowly worse while others improved.

lesson is:

1. dont believe what u read in the press;
2. never stop deveoping quality kids no matter where u are the ladder

[congorozides]

I think sometimes, things have already started going wrong, before we actually realise it.

The constant media attention on the GT/Butterss debacle can never be a good thing, however i felt that once GT was booted, that we would re-stabilise.

However, with the poor recruiting under GT, and the lack of youth being "injected" into our side as a result of that, i think from mid-06 onwards we were spiralling down, but managed to bluff our way through it, by just missing out on the finals last year.

It was only a matter of time that sides like the dogs and hawthorn got their act together, and exposed us as a mediocre side

spot on