Butters Fault really

[Mr Magic]

Things may have gone wrong towards the end of his tenure but he would have acted with the belief that he was doing the right thing by the club.

I don't agree with that.

Not at all.

I do not believe that RB would knowingly hurt the the club because of a personal issue. Results may have been different to what he expected.

........The fact that a couple of his Board members went rebel certainly suggests there were concerns about what Butterss was doing also.]His actions after the sacking were all about protecting Butterss - not the club. Remember the old "we'll let the AFL decide who can run this club better" comment? Was that in the club's best interests?

It stopped being about the club, and started being about Butterss long he was given the arse.

Factually where has it been stated that the 2 Board Members (Gdanski and Levin) became 'rebels' over the GT sacking issue?

A simple question Rodger - show me the official quote and I'll support your position on this 100%.

You can't can you?
Because like so much of your posts on this matter it's just 'wishful thinking' on your part. Take anything and twist it to suit your personal agenda.
Yes, you truly are a 'Master Debater'.
Never mind the reality, create your own so that you can 'win the debate'.

[St.Kenny]

If the Board members were happy with RB's handling of the whole GT saga then surely he'd still be our president.

[barks4eva]

........The fact that a couple of his Board members went rebel certainly suggests there were concerns about what Butterss was doing also.

Factually where has it been stated that the 2 Board Members (Gdanski and Levin) became 'rebels' over the GT sacking issue?

A simple question Rodger - show me the official quote and I'll support your position on this 100%.

You can't can you?
Because like so much of your posts on this matter it's just 'wishful thinking' on your part. Take anything and twist it to suit your personal agenda.
Yes, you truly are a 'Master Debater'.
Never mind the reality, create your own so that you can 'win the debate'.

Great Post Mr Magic, you're a wake up to dodgy, what you wrote is accurate, what dodgy wrote is a complete load of codswallop, eminating from his imagination.

Even a nuffie like me

Finally dodgy, I knew you had it in you to post something accurate for a change.

[Mr Magic]

Unlike Rodger, I don't know this as a fact but I am reliably told by people who would appear to know.

Levin at least had issues with RB and the Board that culminated with teh legal representation of the Baker case at the Tribunal.

Absolutely nothing to do with GT's sacking. In fact my understanding is that Levin was deeply involved in ensuring that everything was done correctly in the GT sacking - including the 'contract'.

I don't know what Gdanski's issues were with RB and the Board in general but as I said in my previous post when Rodger made his 'outlandish inference', show me 1 public example of it being true and I will support his inference 100%

Not too difficult - just 1 example coming from either of Gdanski or Levin stating they were against the sacking of GT and therefore defected from the Board.

In fact Rodger, show me 1 public example from any Board member of either RB's Board or GW's Board wh has publicly stated that they felt the sacking of GT was wrong.

Isn't it ironic that the GT sycophants on here keep labelling the sacking as RB's alone and yet nobody can produce a single public comment by any Board memebr of that time or currently to either state that RB acted alone or that it wasn't a Board decision.

ALso that oft repeated BS line that RB appointed Lyon has well and truly worn thin.
It is factually incorrect.
The coaching selection sub-committee forwarded its recommendation to the full Board, and they (not RB alone) ratified the appointment. That includes Gdanski, Levin and all the other Board members at the time.

[meher baba]

Isn't it ironic that the GT sycophants on here keep labelling the sacking as RB's alone and yet nobody can produce a single public comment by any Board memebr of that time or currently to either state that RB acted alone or that it wasn't a Board decision.

ALso that oft repeated BS line that RB appointed Lyon has well and truly worn thin.
It is factually incorrect.
The coaching selection sub-committee forwarded its recommendation to the full Board, and they (not RB alone) ratified the appointment. That includes Gdanski, Levin and all the other Board members at the time.

I have tried to keep out of this thread, because life is short, the world is wide, etc, etc. However, MM's comment has filled me with the urge to jump in with both feet.

I would suspect that many on here would consider me to be in the category of a "GT sycophant". (The reality is that I have no particular brief for, or liking of GT. I simply have consistently believed and argued since September 2006 that sacking GT and replacing him with anyone other than a proven AFL coach with a better record - Mathews, Malthouse, Willliams, perhaps Sheedy or Pagan - was a disastrous decision for the club and one for which we will pay heavily for a long time. But call me a "sycophant" if you wish, I've been called worse.)

However, I personally have never suggested that the events of 2006 were in any way the sole responsibility of Butterss. I have always believed that the fact that he had so much trouble publicly explaining why it was necessary suggests that he was only a minor player: critical only in the sense that his rift with GT meant that he was not going to lift a finger to save him.

I have always believed that the decision to move GT on was one which was strongly favoured by a number of board members, on the basis of negative feelings that dated back to the events of 2001 and were accentuated by our PF loss in 2005. These board members genuinely believed that our list was "so good that it could coach itself" and felt that our PF loss in 2005 was all the fault of GT for failing to select genuine ruckmen, not having a plan B when other teams flooded, not being much of a match day coach, etc. These feelings were inflamed further by Archie Fraser's whiteanting of GT and were then capped off by the dispiriting loss to the Dees in the 2006 EF.

I really wouldn't be at all surprised if came out one day that some of the Board members had been led to believe that, once GT was sacked, the resulting selection process was going to throw up a Mathews, Williams or at least a Laidley. I wonder how keen they would have been if they had known in advance that Rossy boy was going to get the gig.

I go along with the old dictum that disasters are usually the result of a cockup rather than a conspiracy. The idea that Butterss was behind it all motivated by personal malice is a conspiracy theory. The sort of cockup in which the majority of the former Board actually believed that they were acting in the best long-term interests of the club - bless them - would be much closer to the truth IMO.

However, one thing I would suggest people look into is how closely associated our former president was with the recruitment firm engaged to asssist with the search and selection processes that gave us Lyon.

[meher baba]

BTW, this post from a new member seems to have been overlooked in the hurly burly of this thread. Although I didn't agree with it all, I found it really interesting. Good on you The Punter, and welcome to Saintsational.

It really is Butterss fault.

In 2000, Chris Connolly was almost appointed as coach of St Kilda. But RB got stars in his eyes and got Malcolm Blight for $1,000,000.

Blight didn't draft enough youngsters (only Riewoldt & Koschitzke were recruited as Under 18s), however he added Matthew Capuano, Mark Gale, Robert Powell, Craig Callaghan, Steven Lawrence, Brett Voss, Aaron Hamill & Fraser Gehrig. By 2004 only three were at the club. In 2008 only Gehrig remains, almost certainly finished.

So Blight doesn't work out and he is rightfully dismissed, as he was not willing to do the hard yards. RB hands over to his good mate Grant Thomas.

At the end of 2001, we almost hire Connolly again, but stick with Thomas. He drafts well, getting Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke, Nick Dal Santo, Matt Maguire, Leigh Montagna & Josh Houlihan into the club, as well as trading for Heath Black.

However, with this influx of young players, Thomas takes on the role of father figure, and soon becomes the messiah-like character at the club. All player interaction with the club is with him; he negotiates the contracts, rotates the captaincy, and removes deadwood. By 2003 it is obvious St Kilda are going to be a force.

Come 2004 and on-field success begins. But something happens between GT & RB, and they are no longer friends.

The pivotal night for the GT era at St Kilda comes in Round 21, 2005. The Saints are flying, having won 7 straight. Justin Koschtizke has become the form player of the competition. The right balance has been found, and the Saints have been obliterating sides.

Then, in the space of 2 1/2 hours at Subiaco, it all falls apart. By the end of the first quarter Luke Penny and Matt Maguire are injured. Penny would never play again. In the third quarter Koschitzke tears his quad muscle. Hamill is also injured.

The umpires also have a massive say. After mid-week comments by GT that umpires need to be ego-less, they pay five free kicks that result in goals. A fading St Kilda without a bench loses after the siren to the Dockers, who promptly fail to make the finals by losing to Port Adelaide the next week. St Kilda, without the injured stars, beat probably the worst Brisbane team this side of Norm Dare by 23 goals, with Milne kicking 11.

The next week a miracle, possible only because of the brilliance of Robert Harvey, and the ineptitude of Neil Craig. We have the home preliminary final we needed so badly 12 months earlier.

Two weeks later an underdone St Kilda side jumps out to a fifteen point lead in the third quarter, but fails to score another goal and is beaten by Sydney, who go on to beat West Coast in a close but dreadful Grand Final.

There are glimpses in 2006, but Hamill gets injured and is never the same, Kosi gets a fractured skull and is never the same, and after losing a final versus Melbourne with no bench after half-time, Thomas is sacked. RB looks for his complete opposite, and finds Ross Lyon.

Lyon now finds himself at a club with the wrong captain, a bunch of 22-25 year old players who aren't simply as good as they were under Grant Thomas, and an attitude right through the group that they'd rather be doing something else.

The reality is that from 2002-2006, the players played for Grant Thomas. Not the club, not the jumper, not each other. During that period, we weren't a club, we were a personality cult.

And none of that would have bothered me if we had just got one lousy premiership out of it. But looking back, the dream died in Perth in late August 2005, but the mistakes were made all the way back in 2000.

[barks4eva]

However, I personally have never suggested that the events of 2006 were in any way the sole responsibility of Butterss. I have always believed that the fact that he had so much trouble publicly explaining why it was necessary suggests that he was only a minor player: critical only in the sense that his rift with GT meant that he was not going to lift a finger to save him.

You really do have no clue, mebabble, you get it so wrong so often, one thing I will say is, at least you're consistent.

These feelings were inflamed further by Archie Fraser's whiteanting of GT and were then capped off by the dispiriting loss to the Dees in the 2006 EF.

I am too busy to respond to the rest of your drivel

[Mr Magic]

Isn't it ironic that the GT sycophants on here keep labelling the sacking as RB's alone and yet nobody can produce a single public comment by any Board memebr of that time or currently to either state that RB acted alone or that it wasn't a Board decision.

ALso that oft repeated BS line that RB appointed Lyon has well and truly worn thin.
It is factually incorrect.
The coaching selection sub-committee forwarded its recommendation to the full Board, and they (not RB alone) ratified the appointment. That includes Gdanski, Levin and all the other Board members at the time.

I have tried to keep out of this thread, because life is short, the world is wide, etc, etc. However, MM's comment has filled me with the urge to jump in with both feet.

I would suspect that many on here would consider me to be in the category of a "GT sycophant". (The reality is that I have no particular brief for, or liking of GT. I simply have consistently believed and argued since September 2006 that sacking GT and replacing him with anyone other than a proven AFL coach with a better record - Mathews, Malthouse, Willliams, perhaps Sheedy or Pagan - was a disastrous decision for the club and one for which we will pay heavily for a long time. But call me a "sycophant" if you wish, I've been called worse.)

However, I personally have never suggested that the events of 2006 were in any way the sole responsibility of Butterss. I have always believed that the fact that he had so much trouble publicly explaining why it was necessary suggests that he was only a minor player: critical only in the sense that his rift with GT meant that he was not going to lift a finger to save him.

I have always believed that the decision to move GT on was one which was strongly favoured by a number of board members, on the basis of negative feelings that dated back to the events of 2001 and were accentuated by our PF loss in 2005. These board members genuinely believed that our list was "so good that it could coach itself" and felt that our PF loss in 2005 was all the fault of GT for failing to select genuine ruckmen, not having a plan B when other teams flooded, not being much of a match day coach, etc. These feelings were inflamed further by Archie Fraser's whiteanting of GT and were then capped off by the dispiriting loss to the Dees in the 2006 EF.

I really wouldn't be at all surprised if came out one day that some of the Board members had been led to believe that, once GT was sacked, the resulting selection process was going to throw up a Mathews, Williams or at least a Laidley. I wonder how keen they would have been if they had known in advance that Rossy boy was going to get the gig.

I go along with the old dictum that disasters are usually the result of a cockup rather than a conspiracy. The idea that Butterss was behind it all motivated by personal malice is a conspiracy theory. The sort of cockup in which the majority of the former Board actually believed that they were acting in the best long-term interests of the club - bless them - would be much closer to the truth IMO.

However, one thing I would suggest people look into is how closely associated our former president was with the recruitment firm engaged to asssist with the search and selection processes that gave us Lyon.

MB, I wasn't referring to you when I used the term 'sycophants'.
I was referring to those who repeatedly trot out the same old BS line about RB (and he alone) being the responsible party for sacking GT, when it is patently untrue and would seem to be totally illogical. IMHO they are so consumed in their hatred fir RB that they will use any incident, whether connected or not, to further their agenda in rewriting the Club's history during his administration.

The membership voted last year to throw him out. Why is there such a need by these posters to diminish his achievments (whatever they were) by 'tarnishing' him at any opportunity? By all means blame him for what he did wrong but to blame him unfairly for things he didn't do is, IMHO, a reflection of the sad/mad obsession some posters have with destroying all memory of the good things the RB administration did.

Just like the Team 'coached itself' when GT was the Coach, the Club 'ran itself' when RB was the President.

[Ghost Like]

BTW, this post from a new member seems to have been overlooked in the hurly burly of this thread. Although I didn't agree with it all, I found it really interesting. Good on you The Punter, and welcome to Saintsational.

.

Thanks for drawing my attention to ThePunter's post MB. It is an excellent post and elcome aboard ThePunter, hope to read more of your posts.

[meher baba]

However, I personally have never suggested that the events of 2006 were in any way the sole responsibility of Butterss. I have always believed that the fact that he had so much trouble publicly explaining why it was necessary suggests that he was only a minor player: critical only in the sense that his rift with GT meant that he was not going to lift a finger to save him.

You really do have no clue, mebabble, you get it so wrong so often, one thing I will say is, at least you're consistent.

These feelings were inflamed further by Archie Fraser's whiteanting of GT and were then capped off by the dispiriting loss to the Dees in the 2006 EF.

I am too busy to respond to the rest of your drivel

Hi B4E

Thanks for acknowledging that I am consistent.

I assume from these eye rolls that you have some inside info that Butterss did play a major role in GT's sacking and that Archie Fraser didn't?

Fair enough if you do: my interpretation of events is principally based on observing public statements and behaviour augmented by a smattering of inside info I get from some people I know who are important in the AFL world but who are not particularly connected to the Sainters.

If you have an inside link to the Sainters, I'd be interested to hear your take on it all: you can PM me if you don't want to share it with the world.

Cheers

MB

[Teflon]

Teflon you just said u don't accept mediocrity but ur happy with the way things are going.

You are an Idiot

Your a sharp one you are...you got me I apologise....

Barks/Joffa - I suspect this isnt the only thing Kenny has blown....that aside and given hes now blown our cover I have disposed of those Board minutes as discussed....I expect a plumber round in the morning....

[aussierules0k]

[Sainternist]

Great post, St.Kenny... NOT!!!

How very constructive it is to scapegoat someone from the past. And no I'm not an RB sympathiser.

Get with the times and get over it

One of the weakest posts I've seen in a while.

[ThePunter]

Thanks guys. Have been over at Big Footy for a while, and have decided to also join in over here.

In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter what has happened. We need to look forward. I thought at half-time on Saturday night Ross Lyon finally decided to stop coaching Grant Thomas' old side and took ownership. He took Leigh Montagna, Stephen Milne and Nick Dal Santo and told them all to follow a man down back. He threw Gram into the middle with great effect, and Michael Gardiner looked really good down forward before getting injured. Goddard also looked good sharing his time between the guts and half forward. Not everything worked, but he tried, and this week will we get to see Ben McEvoy, and maybe Jarryd Allen, Brad Howard & Robert Eddy. It may not work immediately, but this is now Ross Lyon's baby, and we need to give it a little time, because he has only now really started to take ownership.

[Buckets]

It really is Butterss fault.

In 2000, Chris Connolly was almost appointed as coach of St Kilda. But RB got stars in his eyes and got Malcolm Blight for $1,000,000.

Blight didn't draft enough youngsters (only Riewoldt & Koschitzke were recruited as Under 18s), however he added Matthew Capuano, Mark Gale, Robert Powell, Craig Callaghan, Steven Lawrence, Brett Voss, Aaron Hamill & Fraser Gehrig. By 2004 only three were at the club. In 2008 only Gehrig remains, almost certainly finished.

So Blight doesn't work out and he is rightfully dismissed, as he was not willing to do the hard yards. RB hands over to his good mate Grant Thomas.

At the end of 2001, we almost hire Connolly again, but stick with Thomas. He drafts well, getting Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke, Nick Dal Santo, Matt Maguire, Leigh Montagna & Josh Houlihan into the club, as well as trading for Heath Black.

However, with this influx of young players, Thomas takes on the role of father figure, and soon becomes the messiah-like character at the club. All player interaction with the club is with him; he negotiates the contracts, rotates the captaincy, and removes deadwood. By 2003 it is obvious St Kilda are going to be a force.

Come 2004 and on-field success begins. But something happens between GT & RB, and they are no longer friends.

The pivotal night for the GT era at St Kilda comes in Round 21, 2005. The Saints are flying, having won 7 straight. Justin Koschtizke has become the form player of the competition. The right balance has been found, and the Saints have been obliterating sides.

Then, in the space of 2 1/2 hours at Subiaco, it all falls apart. By the end of the first quarter Luke Penny and Matt Maguire are injured. Penny would never play again. In the third quarter Koschitzke tears his quad muscle. Hamill is also injured.

The umpires also have a massive say. After mid-week comments by GT that umpires need to be ego-less, they pay five free kicks that result in goals. A fading St Kilda without a bench loses after the siren to the Dockers, who promptly fail to make the finals by losing to Port Adelaide the next week. St Kilda, without the injured stars, beat probably the worst Brisbane team this side of Norm Dare by 23 goals, with Milne kicking 11.

The next week a miracle, possible only because of the brilliance of Robert Harvey, and the ineptitude of Neil Craig. We have the home preliminary final we needed so badly 12 months earlier.

Two weeks later an underdone St Kilda side jumps out to a fifteen point lead in the third quarter, but fails to score another goal and is beaten by Sydney, who go on to beat West Coast in a close but dreadful Grand Final.

There are glimpses in 2006, but Hamill gets injured and is never the same, Kosi gets a fractured skull and is never the same, and after losing a final versus Melbourne with no bench after half-time, Thomas is sacked. RB looks for his complete opposite, and finds Ross Lyon.

Lyon now finds himself at a club with the wrong captain, a bunch of 22-25 year old players who aren't simply as good as they were under Grant Thomas, and an attitude right through the group that they'd rather be doing something else.

The reality is that from 2002-2006, the players played for Grant Thomas. Not the club, not the jumper, not each other. During that period, we weren't a club, we were a personality cult.

And none of that would have bothered me if we had just got one lousy premiership out of it. But looking back, the dream died in Perth in late August 2005, but the mistakes were made all the way back in 2000.

Fantastic post! Sums it up brilliantly! Welcome to Saintsational, have always enjoyed your posts on bigfooty look forward to some here!

[Teflon]

Thanks guys. Have been over at Big Footy for a while, and have decided to also join in over here.

In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter what has happened. We need to look forward. I thought at half-time on Saturday night Ross Lyon finally decided to stop coaching Grant Thomas' old side and took ownership. He took Leigh Montagna, Stephen Milne and Nick Dal Santo and told them all to follow a man down back. He threw Gram into the middle with great effect, and Michael Gardiner looked really good down forward before getting injured. Goddard also looked good sharing his time between the guts and half forward. Not everything worked, but he tried, and this week will we get to see Ben McEvoy, and maybe Jarryd Allen, Brad Howard & Robert Eddy. It may not work immediately, but this is now Ross Lyon's baby, and we need to give it a little time, because he has only now really started to take ownership.

Your avatar is a killer.....turned my screen to Chinese....luckily I went to the Rudd school of "hard woks"...

Great post - agreed with the lot and also think Lyon is slowly gaining the "ownership" required to takle charge.

Many forget while that it must be difficult to walk in to a side where the WORLD expects a flag (and I think Lyon did also by the way..) only to realise it aint all as flash as it was reported and changes would be required. Lyons press conference after the game was interesting....to me I got a sense hed hit rock bottom and realised there was only one way forward and that requires some hard decisions and bad news for some......I hope he holds his nerve and the Board also.

[Teflon]

I have tried to keep out of this thread

Your not trying hard enough......

[Halo Halo]

The problem with the Saints is that Ross Lyon does not seem to know how to coach an AFL team. He is often out-coached & places players out of position. Before he took over the helm at St Kilda the side had finished 3rd, 4th & 6th on the ladder yet under his guidance they finished 9th last year & will struggle to finish any higher this year.

He (Lyon)has tried to implement a game plan that does not suit his players, a fact highlighted by the fact that the majority of the players which shone in the years 2004, 2005 & 2006 have not been able to achieve the same results under the new style of play.

The previous board at St Kilda recruited Lyon because they did not get along with the then president, it was the one last mistake the board made. A mistake which will ultimately cost the club & yet again starve the supporters of success..

[St.Kenny]

Halo halo stop talking sense. Your not welcome on this site !

[Halo Halo]

fickle supporters

Fickle supporters supporters sack coaches every couple of years.



Patience and loyalty is what's required, this is why some teams constantly rise to the top and hardly ever hit wooden spoon. We and a few others remain in a cycle of bickering and sacking coaches, destined to fail.

RL has my 100% support, at least for the term of his current contract.
I was also against sacking GT mid contract.

Stability please.

We all want stability however I do not want to continue to accept mediocrity we have been served up recently. Something is wrong & if we continue to ignore it we, being the club & the supporters will continue to suffer.

This season has gone horribly wrong however it’s not much different to this time last season. Under Grant Thomas we played an exciting brand of footy, a style that got supporters excited, I know that the game plan had flaws however it was a style of play that was exciting to watch & made us the envy of many club’s. The style of play under Lyon is un-exciting, un-eventful & is out-right boring to watch. Teams are no longer afraid to play us, as it us our team & our players that are being intimidated.

For mine, I think a change is required and the quicker it happens the better..

[Cairnsman]

...and also think Lyon is slowly gaining the "ownership" required to takle charge.

Many forget while that it must be difficult to walk in to a side where the WORLD expects a flag (and I think Lyon did also by the way..) only to realise it aint all as flash as it was reported and changes would be required. Lyons press conference after the game was interesting....to me I got a sense hed hit rock bottom and realised there was only one way forward and that requires some hard decisions and bad news for some......I hope he holds his nerve and the Board also.

Aggree with this Teflon. I also think it is now time the players realise that Lyon is in charge and stop their sooki sooki la la behaviour and find some enthusiasm and energy.