What Have we learned

bob__71 · Post: # 588149Post **bob__71** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 4:59pm

A new tactic here....I think that Tim Watson could coach....And I think Ross Lyon can coach.

I also think the reason why Tim was a failure, and the reason why Ross will be a failure are the same.

Both of these coaches were bought in because of the perception that their predecessors didnt do enough. Stan and Grant both coached from a motivational/Leadership method. Both were sacked to bring in more tactical nous, because it seemed that these teams could coach themselves...because the coaches were not telling the players what to do.

So as with when Tim was bought in, we had more meetings...new scientific methods...better gameplans etc. But we had gone from motivators who had the players believing that theirs was higher calling....to the "you are professional players you should be able to motivate yourselves brigade".

Sure maybe they should be able to motivate themselves....and if they dont...then we can conveniently blame them....and it seems at the moment that is the only motivation we have ......self preservation:(

the shadow · Post: # 588153Post **the shadow** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 5:02pm

Great post Bob_71. You've hit the nail right on the head!

bob__71 · Post: # 588179Post **bob__71** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 5:34pm

Sad thing is Shadow that not many are willing to see the truth....because sadly the truth offers very little hope of miracles....

Armoooo · Post: # 588192Post **Armoooo** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 5:49pm

Not buying it, maybe the reason why they both brought down their teams was because they play players out of their position?

Cairnsman · Post: # 588200Post **Cairnsman** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 5:57pm

So the does anyone think that the players have anything to do with our ladder position at the moment.

It doesn't look like many people have been alarmed by RLs comments after the game on Saturday night that the players lack enthusiasm and energy. It seems most people are putting all of the blame on the coach.

Does anybody on here have a thought about the RLs comment on the players enthusiasm and energy other than, "it's RLs fault for not motivating the players"

I for one would like to see some balance in the debate and consider that maybe, just maybe the players are to blame for our current plight.

WinnersOnly · Mon 16 Jun 2008 6:04pm

Great post - the question is why cant the SAINTS find the guy that can do both. Obviously LYON has no motivational skills and even with the best list and game plan in the world without passionate footballers it is worth nothing.

Previous we had GT and ALVES who were great motivators but just needed that bit of extra assistance with tactics/game day coaching and list development.

St Kilda does not have the great facilities and winning culture of other clubs and requires the coach to generate the passion and enthusiasm. It takes a special kind of individual to instill that faith into players.

Perhaps the answer for the SAINTS is too employ dual coaches - one tactical and another motivational (SAINTS background)! It worried me when LYON came in and employed all his assistants from outside the club. I dont think sacking LYON at seasons end is the answer, but he needs some motivational assistance from another source.

You just have to look at the passion RATTEN showed on the weekend coaching his old team. It takes a long time to invent that sort of passion when you are an outsider new to a club. Particularly a club as disfunctional (off field) as St Kilda was when LYON arrived...

rodgerfox · Post: # 588210Post **rodgerfox** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 6:08pm

Cairnsman wrote:
It doesn't look like many people have been alarmed by RLs comments after the game on Saturday night that the players lack enthusiasm and energy.

Many people alarmed by being told the sky is blue either.

BAM! (shhhh) · Mon 16 Jun 2008 6:17pm

Cairnsman wrote:So the does anyone think that the players have anything to do with our ladder position at the moment.

It doesn't look like many people have been alarmed by RLs comments after the game on Saturday night that the players lack enthusiasm and energy. It seems most people are putting all of the blame on the coach.

Does anybody on here have a thought about the RLs comment on the players enthusiasm and energy other than, "it's RLs fault for not motivating the players"

I for one would like to see some balance in the debate and consider that maybe, just maybe the players are to blame for our current plight.

Couldn't be much less concerned about those comments. Just as I was concerned about similar comments post-Brisbane...

After Brisbane, I wanted to see fired up effort against Melbourne. Don't know whether we really got it or not, but we won handily. That hasn't been maintainted.

At this point, I'm thinking it's at the point where it signifies that the coach doesn't have the required buy in from players. We've got a dispirited and de-motivated team.

Personally, I don't think there's any question that the players have thrown Lyon under the bus... Trouble for Lyon is that excepting rookies etc. most of our list has more runs on the board than the coach does. I'm not sold on the "ply the kids" being an absolute must from a list perspective, but if I were Ross Lyon, I'd be getting in as many as possible so they'd play for their lives to stay in and save my job, and hopefully motivate some senior players to lift their workrate.

Lyon's in a tough spot... but as the saying goes, it's easier to replace the coach than all the players.

bob__71 · Post: # 588241Post **bob__71** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 6:58pm

Before this thread gets hijacked by the same blaming someone game. The point of my opening post is that the current situation explains itself well, everyone is doing their best. I dont think Ross or Tim stood a chance, they are the coach we got on the rebound. We are an AFL football team....they run on passion.....people who dont understand that have never played the game.....

howlinwolf · Post: # 588244Post **howlinwolf** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 6:59pm

While I'm not overly impressed with the coaching style I've seen from RL so far I think our problems are a lot deeper than the coach.

The simple question is.. would Malthouse or Matthews do any better with our list,depth and injuries ?
I'm guessing not.

Matthews is a firm believer that every facet of the Club needs to be in order to get the ultimate success. Have we got our house in order completely ?
Probably not.
If that's the case it's a bit harsh to bundle all the responsibility of our poor results on the coach.

Here's an interesting fact to think about.

Mark Thompson at year 7 at Geelong had a win/loss ratio in the negative.
Look where just a bit more patience and soul searching got them.
Does the Stkilda FC have that much patience ?
Probably not and we don't have the ultimate success either.

I heard Matthew Scarlett on SEN today say that when they had the big heart to heart that Bomber was "oh so close to getting the arse"

Also there was an interesting article in the Saints/Bulldogs record about the opals basketball team. They said to get success there needed to be a system in place that was correct and remained in place regardless of personel. That way when a weakness in personel was targeted that would be addressed and the system remained.
I don't think we have a house that's in order as such.
We could find another coach and it probably wouldn't make any difference.
Sorry if any of this has been posted before.

bob__71 · Post: # 588258Post **bob__71** » Mon 16 Jun 2008 7:13pm

Here is another thing to ponder. Our players always have just been ordinary players. In 04/05/06 they were a bunch of ordinary players, in 07/08 they are just a bunch of ordinary players.

Something is different. I put forward that thing is not speed, and I put forward it is not skill, not even personel.

I would suggest that the types of things that have changed are passion, teamwork love of team mate and jumper.

Talk is of needing to harden up. Needing to break more relationships through trading delisting sacking. Suggestions of putting the organisation through more turmoil.

The saints need to band together, show love for their team mates and work their way through this.

bob__71 · Post: # 588661Post **bob__71** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:34pm

Armoooo wrote:Not buying it, maybe the reason why they both brought down their teams was because they play players out of their position?

Why do you think Lyon is trying to mix things up a bit? Maybe because he like the rest of us can see the boys are lacking spark. He has to try something.

Saints43 · Post: # 588665Post **Saints43** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:50pm

howlinwolf wrote:The simple question is.. would Malthouse or Matthews do any better with our list,depth and injuries ?

Would Ross Lyon be doing better if we had Sydney's list?

howlinwolf wrote:I'm guessing not.Mark Thompson at year 7 at Geelong had a win/loss ratio in the negative.
Look where just a bit more patience and soul searching got them.

It wasn't just a bit of soul searching... they had a review to find out why they weren't getting results. The outcome of that review was that MT could coach but did not spend enough of his time on that core duty. The St Kilda board/s have ensured that this would not be a problem for the incoming coach by setting up the football department to allow him to coach and only to coach.

bob__71 · Post: # 588667Post **bob__71** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:53pm

Saints43 wrote:
howlinwolf wrote:The simple question is.. would Malthouse or Matthews do any better with our list,depth and injuries ?
Would Ross Lyon be doing better if we had Sydney's list?

howlinwolf wrote:I'm guessing not.Mark Thompson at year 7 at Geelong had a win/loss ratio in the negative.
Look where just a bit more patience and soul searching got them.
It wasn't just a bit of soul searching... they had a review to find out why they weren't getting results. The outcome of that review was that MT could coach but did not spend enough of his time on that core duty. The St Kilda board/s have ensured that this would not be a problem for the incoming coach by setting up the football department to allow him to coach and only to coach.

Maybe Ross is as bored as the players are then

barks4eva · Post: # 588668Post **barks4eva** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 4:06pm

What we have learned, is that you don't make the football department the dominion of one man,

if you stuff up your recruiting for 5 years, waste draft picks on recycled players and then toss them away a few years later for zilch return, do not develop rookies, do not develop the list, have a poor relationship with your VFL affiliate, you will inevitably slide down the ladder,

Clubs on the rise all have one thing in common, young talented kids coming through,

St.Kilda have precious few due to mismanagement in the past,

the cyclic nature of AFL football will bite you if you don't constantly develop your list,

recruiting is the lifeblood of any AFL club, stuff it up for 5 years and you will slide down the ladder,

this and the fact that this site has more than it's fair share of know nothing numbnuts, flaggetating flogs, gumps, gimps, geeks and goofballs is what we have learnt,

but hey I knew all of this already!

barks4eva · Post: # 588671Post **barks4eva** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 4:09pm

bob__71 wrote:Here is another thing to ponder. Our players always have just been ordinary players. In 04/05/06 they were a bunch of ordinary players, in 07/08 they are just a bunch of ordinary players.

Gee I dunno bob, it's got me stuffed, obviously our 2004 list is exactly the same as our 2008 list, it must be Lyon's fault right?

FAIR DINKUM

bob__71 · Post: # 588673Post **bob__71** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 4:14pm

barks4eva wrote:What we have learned, is that you don't make the football department the dominion of one man,

How did we learn this?

And B4E I didnt blame the coach....I said in my opinion there was little more either Ross or Tim could have done/do except try. It is the situation not the personel

plugger66 · Post: # 588675Post **plugger66** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 4:17pm

barks4eva wrote:What we have learned, is that you don't make the football department the dominion of one man,

if you stuff up your recruiting for 5 years, waste draft picks on recycled players and then toss them away a few years later for zilch return, do not develop rookies, do not develop the list, have a poor relationship with your VFL affiliate, you will inevitably slide down the ladder,

Clubs on the rise all have one thing in common, young talented kids coming through,

St.Kilda have precious few due to mismanagement in the past,

the cyclic nature of AFL football will bite you if you don't constantly develop your list,

recruiting is the lifeblood of any AFL club, stuff it up for 5 years and you will slide down the ladder,

this and the fact that this site has more than it's fair share of know nothing numbnuts, flaggetating flogs, gumps, gimps, geeks and goofballs is what we have learnt,

but hey I knew all of this already!

Except for 2000 and 2001 our recruiting has pretty much been ordinary. You can go back as far as you like since the draft started but as far as you are concerned in what only in GT period one of which was our best or second best draft ever. Blame GT but the problem is deeper than that as it has gone on for 20 years even in the last 2 where Gt had no part in it. Open both eyes and look at the bigger picture.

bob__71 · Post: # 588682Post **bob__71** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 4:32pm

plugger66 wrote:Except for 2000 and 2001 our recruiting has pretty much been ordinary. You can go back as far as you like since the draft started but as far as you are concerned in what only in GT period one of which was our best or second best draft ever. Blame GT but the problem is deeper than that as it has gone on for 20 years even in the last 2 where Gt had no part in it. Open both eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Maybe the recruiting has been ok also? Maybe its something else?

desertsaint · Tue 17 Jun 2008 4:51pm

plugger66 wrote: Blame GT but the problem is deeper than that as it has gone on for 20 years even in the last 2 where Gt had no part in it. Open both eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Agree...and so what is the solution?

The board is new so it has an opportunity to change the culture and look at how successful clubs are run.
The coach is 1/2 way through a contract but he has failed completely to live up to the expectations he was given - tweaking a premiership capable team.

Do we stick with him and honour his contract? It does signal we are prepared to give him a fair go. But what would an extra year under Lyons do for us?
If we need a complete rebuild and blood youngsters at the expense of better players then 2009 will be worse than this year and Lyon will be out anyway and his successor will have one less year to change things -hence another year wasted.

If the problem is mainly motivational and we do have the core of a legitimate contender then surely we need to get a coach asap who can gel and inspire this team or again another year wasted.

Comparisons with Clarkson are not valid - he was appointed to develop a young list - a few seasons of misery were expected - similar to GT.
Comparisons with Bomber are not valid - he had a core of players he was very familiar with, as they were with him.

What changed Geelong? IMO they found inspiration - belief in themselves as individuals and as a team - the personnel was basically the same. This didn't just happen but was the result of soul searching and honesty by all at the club. We had that belief - but it seems to have been sucked from us.

A winning culture cannot come from just the playing personnel - it requires a deep belief and effort from all at the club...and vocal support from the bleachers!

bob__71 · Post: # 588689Post **bob__71** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 5:00pm

In my opinion we just have to ride it out.

We cant get GT back because that would be demoralising because it would be admitting we cant move forward.

We cant get another new coach and expect them to gel with the team and bring instant success.

I think the best plan as a supporter is to support the team. And to support the coach. Not look for answers just trust that everyone is trying their best

Saints43 · Post: # 588713Post **Saints43** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 6:17pm

bob__71 wrote:In my opinion we just have to ride it out.

We cant get GT back because that would be demoralising because it would be admitting we cant move forward.

We cant get another new coach and expect them to gel with the team and bring instant success.

I think the best plan as a supporter is to support the team. And to support the coach. Not look for answers just trust that everyone is trying their best

If we are going to ride it out I want the board to sign Lyon to a further three years at the end of the season.

I believe we have put a good off-field structure in place. At least it seems to look like best practice as far as I know. We can certainly judge the injury situation as improved.

If we sign Ross up this eliminates all uncertainty. Set out a three year plan - something we don't seem to have done to this point. Then there are no more excuses. For anyone. Coaches or players.

Sign him up or eff him off at the end of the year. I don't want a coaching staff going into the final contract year with any requirement too take their eyes off the long term good od the club.

lineup · Post: # 588724Post **lineup** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 6:38pm

Good post. I have not been on the forum for a long while but went to the Sydney game and briefly spoke to coach and players prior to start. There appears to be a lack of spirit and confidence in the team at present. I do not believe that the team thought that they could beat the Swans. It is up to the team to do the job on the park, not the coach. Example in the last qtr was Jolly's mark over NDS. Why did we not have any big man back on the line? King was already in the centre expecting a goal and centre bounce while Jolly was in the square. The team needs to lift itself up. I noticed the players not picked who were watching the game - Ferg, Fiora & Kosi (who appeared fit) showing some interest in the game but not the passion of a Saints supporter. The passion is needed as well as the professionalism for modern day football.

iwantmeseats · Tue 17 Jun 2008 6:49pm

Signing RL to another 3 year deal would be absolutely bloody ludricous, insane, stupid and totally incompetant! Jeez.

parky · Post: # 588866Post **parky** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 11:18pm

I always had this theory with Tim that he actually wasn't too bad a match day coach but he was a terrible, terrible Thursday night coach* and this was the major contributor of many losses under him.

I have had exactly the same "gut" feel about Ross since mid way through last season and haven't really seen anything to change my mind this year

* ie Thursday night at the selection table