This season?

S.A Saint · Post: # 588482Post **S.A Saint** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:50am

there have been a few posts regarding tanking this season and stuff like that.
Just want to give people a few scenarios and see what one they like better.

1. We somehow make the 8 this year and get knocked out of the finals in the first week

2. we play all our young guys like armo, howard, stevens, geary, gilbo, big mac, etc and finish near the bottom lets say 12th.

what scenario would people pick.

i personally would go for scenario 2 as in the next 2 years the draft talent is not going to be very good with the two new teams coming in and our aging list. I wouldnt mind seeing us hang our the bottom this year and next and make a charge at the flag come 2010. Lets face it if we become 8th or 9th for the next few season we are not going to get quality young talent and our list will be getting older and our rebuilding stage will not start after the 2 new teams get established and after that it will take maybe 5 or so years.

this is just my personal opinion, i would like to see how u guys see it?

Teflon · Post: # 588483Post **Teflon** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:54am

option2.

not interested in sneaking into 8th or becoming new richmond at 9th.

aim for a flag. when you cant buildfor one. at the minute competition tells you that reward comes from finishing near bottom. Get as high quality kids as you. DONT TRADE THEM AWAY.

matrix · Post: # 588484Post **matrix** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:56am

agreed.
option 2, no question.

S.A Saint · Post: # 588485Post **S.A Saint** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:58am

And on another note i would also leave ross in charge with out sacking him as some poeple have been saying. if i was in his position i would tell the board exactly what my plans would be for the st kilda fc and see whether they accept it or not.

ROSS PLAY THE YOUNGSTERS THIS YEAR AND NEXT, CUT THE DEAD WOOD AND START FRESH!!!

iwantmeseats · Tue 17 Jun 2008 6:18am

congorozides · Tue 17 Jun 2008 8:23am

S.A Saint wrote:And on another note i would also leave ross in charge with out sacking him as some poeple have been saying. if i was in his position i would tell the board exactly what my plans would be for the st kilda fc and see whether they accept it or not.

ROSS PLAY THE YOUNGSTERS THIS YEAR AND NEXT, CUT THE DEAD WOOD AND START FRESH!!!

thats fine but what has been doing for the last 2 years?

he has not cleaned out any duds - has no blooded any kids and has not really changed anything - except make the players lose confidence.

2 wasted years . we should have tanked last year and had a clean out and got some more good kids in.

SaintWodonga · Tue 17 Jun 2008 12:37pm

option 2

with the idea of putting a few palyers up for trade bait (only used for draft picks).

Dan Warna · Post: # 588579Post **Dan Warna** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 12:45pm

play every game to win.

degruch · Post: # 588581Post **degruch** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 12:51pm

Option 1.1: Saints scrape into the 8 and do some damage, after making a contribution for once.

Plenty of time for option 2 next year. Only interested in winning this year, not crushing the spirit of our rookies.

bergsone · Post: # 588582Post **bergsone** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 12:54pm

If we play the youth, who knows we may still finish 8 9

congorozides · Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:35pm

SaintWodonga wrote:option 2

with the idea of putting a few palyers up for trade bait (only used for draft picks).

the problem with trade bait is the guys we reckon are trade bait no other club would even want. so to trade you tens to have a give up someone good.

although, come to think of it... richmond traded fiora to us.... they must still pinch themselves over that one...

BAM! (shhhh) · Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:41pm

Winning is a mentality. It's never become part of the St Kilda culture. I also think getting kids finals experience and exposure is the most important part of development.

To make finals would mean we've played a pretty good second half of the season. Better than .500, and should be able to make a contest with whoever finishes 5th, and as long as we're not blown away, I'll enjoy that game (though to lose it probably has me despondant for a week rather than the rest of the weekend).

The whole tanking thing in the media causes people to overrate the place a player's picked at compared to the development and luck that goes into a good player pipeline... top 5 has better odds than top 10, but 1 draft pick isn't our solution. We need to right the ship and get ahead of the curve through good development, not bottom out (again) to add talent that doesn't know how to win at AFL level and expect it to bring that culture.

Sign me up for finals.

CHBench · Post: # 588612Post **CHBench** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 1:50pm

How about option 3. Play the kids and somehow still manage to get into the 8.

We've been a bit too predictable in the past and adding some new kids will definitely take that away and possibly surprise a few who thought not very highly of our kids.

rogerwa · Post: # 588626Post **rogerwa** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 2:19pm

we are really sitting 2 & 10

syd game...4 gls in first 20 mins 2 in the next 100,it was only a swine missing from 30 out on the run with 40 seconds to play that got us over the line...i dont count that as a win

carl...if the game was played anytime in the last month or so they would have the points

rich...rich had us by the balls,2 shots in the last minute went astray leaving us ahead not actually winning...i dont count that as a win

ess...as poor as they are still managed to slam on 6 unanswered goals..we get the 4 points but little else from the game

melb...we get the 4 points but little else from the game

if bloody dimwit had any sense of honesty about him he'd reverse the swines & richmond games after the event...he's done it before whats wrong with him doing it again

7 1/2 out of our last 11 last yr was pie in the sky chyt

drew with foots who lost their last 11 games
fell over the line against carl who lost their last 8 gms
fell over the line against rich who won 3 gms for the yr
fell over the line against the eagles who lost 5 on the trot during that period & have only won 4 of their last 16-17 gms (kossi had his 1/2 day out booting about 5 in the first half..will we ever see that again? )

brings us back to 3 or 4 from 11 or 5 from 23

we are in more chyt than jet jackson

rogerwa · Post: # 588627Post **rogerwa** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 2:22pm

forgot to add...tank

degruch · Post: # 588628Post **degruch** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 2:24pm

rogerwa wrote:we are really sitting 2 & 10

syd game...4 gls in first 20 mins 2 in the next 100,it was only a swine missing from 30 out on the run with 40 seconds to play that got us over the line...i dont count that as a win

carl...if the game was played anytime in the last month or so they would have the points

rich...rich had us by the balls,2 shots in the last minute went astray leaving us ahead not actually winning...i dont count that as a win

ess...as poor as they are still managed to slam on 6 unanswered goals..we get the 4 points but little else from the game

melb...we get the 4 points but little else from the game

if bloody dimwit had any sense of honesty about him he'd reverse the swines & richmond games after the event...he's done it before whats wrong with him doing it again

7 1/2 out of our last 11 last yr was pie in the sky chyt

drew with foots who lost their last 11 games
fell over the line against carl who lost their last 8 gms
fell over the line against rich who won 3 gms for the yr
fell over the line against the eagles who lost 5 on the trot during that period & have only won 4 of their last 16-17 gms (kossi had his 1/2 day out booting about 5 in the first half..will we ever see that again? )

brings us back to 3 or 4 from 11 or 5 from 23

we are in more chyt than jet jackson

I'm confused...which three of the five games we've won did we actually lose?

BAM! (shhhh) · Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:05pm

degruch wrote: I'm confused...which three of the five games we've won did we actually lose?

Apparently Sydney, Carlton and Richmond.

Struggle to fathom counting Carlton as a loss... I've heard the arguments for counting Sydney and Richmond as losses (and they both ignore the scoreboard, which said we won, therefore the things we did well for whatever period of time > the things they did well for whatever period).

It all seems to stem from a belief that it's only worth winning if we're edominating. That we don't recognise that Experience winning and losing all styles of game has value in a player is (I suspect) a measure of our own lack of experience in a winning culture from our footy club.

One of my biggest gripes with the current edition is that when we're 3 goals down, we are out of it, we lack the necessary competitive edge.

It's wins like Sydney and Richmond, earned (yes, earned) by slim margins and including the element of luck that teaches a "never say die" attitude.

Tanking definately won't.

S.A Saint · Post: # 588648Post **S.A Saint** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:14pm

No one is saying here that we should tank. We simply should play the kids and see how we go, if that means making the 8 then so be it. Or if it means finishing last then thats also fine.

i don't believe in this not winning mentality. have a look at carltank they have been last for past decade and with good kids coming through have started winning the tough games. if you have the players you will ben regardless of what has happened in previous years. [/quote]

S.A Saint · Post: # 588649Post **S.A Saint** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:15pm

No one is saying here that we should tank. We simply should play the kids and see how we go, if that means making the 8 then so be it. Or if it means finishing last then thats also fine.

i don't believe in this not winning mentality. have a look at carltank they have been last for past decade and with good kids coming through have started winning the tough games. if you have the players you will win regardless of what has happened in previous years.

edited sorry about that

degruch · Post: # 588650Post **degruch** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:15pm

Hmmm...interesting perspective.

Certainly wouldn't count Carlton win as a 'loss', we cruised home over them. Just because they beat a couple teams lately doesn't make them superstars, undeserved of the arse-kicking we handed out to them.

As for us being lucky against Richmond because they kicked badly, does that mean we actually won our last game against the Bulldogs? That's one game back!

We smashed Sydney in the 1st quarter of our first round game...shame that was the only football we played against them for the rest of the night, but it was a low scoring match. Maybe lucky, maybe good early endevour.

But, that's all history, so who cares.

You're right about our lack of endevour though...thre goals down and you don't see any will to fight back. I don't think pulling complacent players out and replacing them with rookies will teach anyone much of a lesson...we'll just lose due to inexperience then. Infusing the team with youth needs to be carefully managed...you don't just give up at week 12 and throw all your lambs to the slaughter.

Mr Magic · Post: # 588653Post **Mr Magic** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:18pm

degruch wrote:Hmmm...interesting perspective.

But, that's all history, so who cares.

You're right about our lack of endevour though...thre goals down and you don't see any will to fight back.

I seem to recall hearing/seeing a statistic somewhere that in the past 5 years we have never won a game where we have been 25 popints behind at some stage?

saintspremiers · Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:19pm

tanking IMO is only really beneficial if it gets you a priority pick, ideally first rounder.

As we have won 5 games already, no PP even in the 2nd round of the draft, so why finish 12th then?

If we finish 8th we get a draft pick only 4 places further down.....and the benefit we get is playing finals.

So why tank this year???

S.A Saint · Post: # 588657Post **S.A Saint** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:28pm

im not suggesting that we should tank. just play the kids like all of them throughout the year and let them develop instead of our players like l.fisher, blake fiora, etccc.

we are still capable of winning a flag with our core of players that we have. imo i believe that if we played the kids we will finish near the bottom this year and next and considering it is going to be a strong draft pick up some quality talent and make a charge for it in 2010.

instead of coming 8 or 9 this year then rebuilding when the 2 new teams start taking all the picks.

plugger66 · Post: # 588660Post **plugger66** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:32pm

S.A Saint wrote:im not suggesting that we should tank. just play the kids like all of them throughout the year and let them develop instead of our players like l.fisher, blake fiora, etccc.

we are still capable of winning a flag with our core of players that we have. imo i believe that if we played the kids we will finish near the bottom this year and next and considering it is going to be a strong draft pick up some quality talent and make a charge for it in 2010.

instead of coming 8 or 9 this year then rebuilding when the 2 new teams start taking all the picks.

Isnt that what Carlton did.

degruch · Post: # 588662Post **degruch** » Tue 17 Jun 2008 3:35pm

Mr Magic wrote:
degruch wrote:Hmmm...interesting perspective.

But, that's all history, so who cares.

You're right about our lack of endevour though...thre goals down and you don't see any will to fight back.
I seem to recall hearing/seeing a statistic somewhere that in the past 5 years we have never won a game where we have been 25 popints behind at some stage?

25 points down? At some stage?? In the past 5 years??? That sounds very unlikely to me. There seem to be a lot of 'failure stats' like that floating around of late...haven't beaten a top 8 team this season was one (bollocks), haven't won outside of the Dome in the last two seasons was another (even bigger bollocks).