Butters Fault really

[rodgerfox]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible and all we needed was a new coach to take us to the next step - to step forward and admit they were wrong?

Wouldn't that be nice.

[markp]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible and all we needed was a new coach to take us to the next step - to step forward and admit they were wrong?

Wouldn't that be nice.

They should've done it sooner... in fact he never should have got the job, the 'process' stank to high heaven.

He is the living embodiment of the saying 'you can fool some of the people all the time, or all the people some of the time, but you cant fool all the people all the time'... the guy is a fraud, all tip no iceberg as Keating would say.... His 'career' as a special comments twat proves it, Aussie Jones has more football knowledge in his little finger than GT has in his entire overblown carcass.

Does anyone seriously think we'd be top 4 now if GT was still coach?

Get a grip.

Let it go.

[barks4eva]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible

Terrible recruiting from the previous football department, ran solo by GT is why we are in this postion right now.

If you havn't figured that out dodgy, then aside from being you being a daft twat, it's hardly surprising.

If it's of any comfort to you there are a lotta know nothing flogs on here that agree with you.

[barks4eva]

.and the resultant bungled trades and draft picks bit the liit....the Butterss mate left us with a list in sad decline that needs new blood and re-building.

Actually if we're going to do some looking in the rear view mirror I'd say this is close to the mark. (& unlike someone else I do note the bolded part!!)

Frankly I'd also like to blame Butterss for letting GT get out of control, having made him coach he should have made certain that that was what he did, but what occurred was that he was allowed/encouraged to multiskill so the club could save money. [Also FWIW saving money & paying 99.999% of the TPP (which I know is contradictory) is why we didn't fill the last 1 or 2 spots on the list, or never had a full compliment of rookies.]

In his early days GT said that the way to ensure continued success was to continually get the best kids available - in my mind failing to do that was probably his single greatest failure!

As for RL I hope he wakes up bloddy soon & starts turning the list over, he's got a season & a half to set a new direction for the club. I would imagine the success of that will go a long way to determining his longer term future at the club.

Agree, Agree, Agree 100%

[JT]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible

Terrible recruiting from the previous football department, ran solo by GT is why we are in this postion right now.

If you havn't figured that out dodgy, then aside from being you being a daft twat, it's hardly surprising.

If it's of any comfort to you there are a lotta know nothing flogs on here that agree with you.

I thought John Beverage ran recruiting while GT has coach. From memory GT didn't even attend the drafts while he was coach.

Maybe the problem with recruiting while GT was at the club was that he didn't have enough involvement?

[st.byron]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible and all we needed was a new coach to take us to the next step - to step forward and admit they were wrong?

Wouldn't that be nice.

I supported the sacking of Thomas and still do. It was the right decision.
Who was appointed in his place is a separate issue.
It remains to be seen whether or not Lyon will actually deliver anything of value. It's not looking good.

[matrix]

stop blaming the present on the past.
the cards have been dealt, now play the friggin hand.

i dont think either of them were/are any good.
but its the here and now.......and not 2006
if the present one was any better than the last one he would be dealing with the situation, and things would be going along at a reasonable pace.

its not, it wasnt before and it doesnt look like it will be in very near future.

just keep abusing everyone........you're going along swimmingly

[ThePunter]

It really is Butterss fault.

In 2000, Chris Connolly was almost appointed as coach of St Kilda. But RB got stars in his eyes and got Malcolm Blight for $1,000,000.

Blight didn't draft enough youngsters (only Riewoldt & Koschitzke were recruited as Under 18s), however he added Matthew Capuano, Mark Gale, Robert Powell, Craig Callaghan, Steven Lawrence, Brett Voss, Aaron Hamill & Fraser Gehrig. By 2004 only three were at the club. In 2008 only Gehrig remains, almost certainly finished.

So Blight doesn't work out and he is rightfully dismissed, as he was not willing to do the hard yards. RB hands over to his good mate Grant Thomas.

At the end of 2001, we almost hire Connolly again, but stick with Thomas. He drafts well, getting Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke, Nick Dal Santo, Matt Maguire, Leigh Montagna & Josh Houlihan into the club, as well as trading for Heath Black.

However, with this influx of young players, Thomas takes on the role of father figure, and soon becomes the messiah-like character at the club. All player interaction with the club is with him; he negotiates the contracts, rotates the captaincy, and removes deadwood. By 2003 it is obvious St Kilda are going to be a force.

Come 2004 and on-field success begins. But something happens between GT & RB, and they are no longer friends.

The pivotal night for the GT era at St Kilda comes in Round 21, 2005. The Saints are flying, having won 7 straight. Justin Koschtizke has become the form player of the competition. The right balance has been found, and the Saints have been obliterating sides.

Then, in the space of 2 1/2 hours at Subiaco, it all falls apart. By the end of the first quarter Luke Penny and Matt Maguire are injured. Penny would never play again. In the third quarter Koschitzke tears his quad muscle. Hamill is also injured.

The umpires also have a massive say. After mid-week comments by GT that umpires need to be ego-less, they pay five free kicks that result in goals. A fading St Kilda without a bench loses after the siren to the Dockers, who promptly fail to make the finals by losing to Port Adelaide the next week. St Kilda, without the injured stars, beat probably the worst Brisbane team this side of Norm Dare by 23 goals, with Milne kicking 11.

The next week a miracle, possible only because of the brilliance of Robert Harvey, and the ineptitude of Neil Craig. We have the home preliminary final we needed so badly 12 months earlier.

Two weeks later an underdone St Kilda side jumps out to a fifteen point lead in the third quarter, but fails to score another goal and is beaten by Sydney, who go on to beat West Coast in a close but dreadful Grand Final.

There are glimpses in 2006, but Hamill gets injured and is never the same, Kosi gets a fractured skull and is never the same, and after losing a final versus Melbourne with no bench after half-time, Thomas is sacked. RB looks for his complete opposite, and finds Ross Lyon.

Lyon now finds himself at a club with the wrong captain, a bunch of 22-25 year old players who aren't simply as good as they were under Grant Thomas, and an attitude right through the group that they'd rather be doing something else.

The reality is that from 2002-2006, the players played for Grant Thomas. Not the club, not the jumper, not each other. During that period, we weren't a club, we were a personality cult.

And none of that would have bothered me if we had just got one lousy premiership out of it. But looking back, the dream died in Perth in late August 2005, but the mistakes were made all the way back in 2000.

[barks4eva]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible

Terrible recruiting from the previous football department, ran solo by GT is why we are in this postion right now.

If you havn't figured that out dodgy, then aside from being you being a daft twat, it's hardly surprising.

If it's of any comfort to you there are a lotta know nothing flogs on here that agree with you.

I thought John Beverage ran recruiting while GT has coach. From memory GT didn't even attend the drafts while he was coach.

Maybe the problem with recruiting while GT was at the club was that he didn't have enough involvement?

To expand, was referring to recruiting, list development, relationship with casey, rookies etc...etc...

On recruiting, 8 selections including 3 first round, 3 second round and 2 third round selections were used over the space of five years on recycled players from other clubs instead of national draft picks, decisions mad by the football department which GT controlled and had the final say in.

FACT it was Rendell's decsion to go after Brooks, Guerra, Ackland

FACT it was Thomas's decision 100% to draft McGough

FACT it was Thomas's decision to draft R. Clarke, fwiw, I was more than happy with this one at the time, but hey, just relaying some FACTS


FACT is the football department are responsible for recruiting, either directly or indirectly and in many instances, national draft selections were traded for top ups, decisions made by Rendell not Beveridge.

How we gave up not just pick 6 BUT ALSO PICK 31 for Brooks as if 6 wasn't enough is mindboggling in the extreme

FACT is the list wasn't developed for 10 years of sustained success, it was a smash and grab, but unfortunately the gamble backfired

Butterss is largely to blame for allowing Thomas to run the football department in the first place.

Obviously the first year they Butterss and Thomas had control a $700,000 debt saw the implemented cost saving structures implemented, with Thomas not only becoming coach but running the entire football department.

This compromised our onfield capabilities, with these cost saving structures limiting the capacity of the football department.

This is one area that should not have beem compromised

Had we had the football department we have now, back then we quite possibly would be talking about Thomas as a premiership coach.

Right now because of the football department having been mismanaged for over 5 years, this has set us backwards around 5 years.

This decline stared in 2006!

In 2005 we were premiership favourites right up until and into September.

In 2006 there were at least 5 clubs ranked ahead of us in premiership favouritism, such was the decline, which eventually saw us finish 8th.

Injuries cost us in 2004 and 2005 and again this can be sheeted back to having an inadequate footnball department with poorly conditioned players, which more than likely contributed to some of these injuries.

2008 we are now only midtable at best, that is where our list is at, after finishing 8th in 2006, 9th in 2007 and looking like a similar result in 2008, the evidence is there, for anyone not blinded by their rose coloured glasses.

We need to rebuild and rebuild fast, with the onset of two new teams coming in, the draft will be compromised and the opportunities limited, my usual optimism is now tempered by the reality of the situation.

It would not matter who we had coaching us , we simply do not have the cattle.

It has annoyed me greatly that Ross Lyon has persisted with the same cattle who are taking us nowhere for 1.5 seasons, we need to develop kids and this does not happen by the continual selection of players who are ineffectual, slow and unskilled.

Dropping Armitage again is .........................I'd really like to know why??????????

Hopefully the penny has dropped and we will now see the kids played, otherwise we are just treading water before inevitably sinking to the bottom again.

This is all due the mismanagement of the previous football department and a situation which Butterss is largely to blame for, as he allowed this situation to develop in the first place.

We now have a great board, a great football department, but a list that is cactus.

[rodgerfox]

Wouldn't it be great for those who proclaimed that GT was terrible

Terrible recruiting from the previous football department, ran solo by GT is why we are in this postion right now.

If you havn't figured that out dodgy, then aside from being you being a daft twat, it's hardly surprising.

If it's of any comfort to you there are a lotta know nothing flogs on here that agree with you.

I thought John Beverage ran recruiting while GT has coach. From memory GT didn't even attend the drafts while he was coach.

Maybe the problem with recruiting while GT was at the club was that he didn't have enough involvement?

To expand, was referring to recruiting, list development, rel;ationship with casey, rookies etc...etc...

On recruiting, 8 selections including 3 first round, 3 second round and 2 third round selections were used over the space of five years on recycled players from other clubs instead of national draft picks, decisions mad by the football department which Gt controlled and had the final say in.

FACT it was Rendell's decsion to go after Brooks, Guerra, Ackland

FACT it was Thomas's decision 100% to draft McGough

FACT it was Thomas's decision to draft R. Clarke, fwiw, I was more than happy with this one at the time, but hey, just relaying some FACTS


FACT is the football department are responsible for recruiting, either directly or indirectly and in many instances, national draft selections were traded for top ups, decisions made by Rendell not Beveridge.

How we gave up not just pick 6 BUT ALSO PICK 31 for Brooks as if 6 wasn't enough is mindboggling in the extreme

FACT is the list wasn't developed for 10 years of sustained success, it was a smash and grab, but unfortunately the gamble backfired

Butterss is largely to blame for allowing Thomas to run the football department in the first place.

Obviously the first year they Butterss and Thomas had control a $700,000 debt saw the implemented cost saving structures implemented, with Thomas not only becoming coach but running the entire football department.

This compromised our onfield capabilities, with these cost saving structures limiting the capacity of the football department.

This is one area that should not have beem compromised

Had we had the football department we have now, back then we quite possibly would be talking about Thomas as a premiership coach.

Right now because of the football department having been mismanaged for over 5 years, this has set us backwards around 5 years.

This decline stared in 2006!

In 2005 we were premiership favourites right up until and into September.

In 2006 there were at least 5 clubs ranked ahead of us in premiership favouritism, such was the decline, which eventually saw us finish 8th.

Injuries cost us in 2004 and 2005 and again this can be sheeted back to having an inadequate footnball department with poorly conditrioned players, which more than likely contributed to some of these injuries.

2008 we are now only midtable at best, that is where our list is at, after finishing 8th in 2006, 9th in 2007 and looking like a similar result in 2008, the evidence is there, for anyone not blinded by their rose coloured glasses.

We need to rebuild and rebuild fast, with the onset of two new teams coming in, the draft will be compromised and the opportunities limited, my usual optimism is now tempered by the reality of the situation.

It would not matter who we had coaching us , we simply do not have the cattle.

It has annoyed me greatly that Ross Lyon has persisted with the same cattle who are taking us nowhere for 1.5 seasons, we need to develop kids and this does not happen by the continual selection of players who are ineffectual, slow and unskilled.

Dropping Armitage again is .........................I'd really like to know why??????????

Hopefully the penny has dropped and we will now see the kids played, otherwise we are just treading water before inevitably sinking to the bottom again.

This is all due the mismanagement of the previous football department and a situation which Butterss needs to share in the blame for, as he allowed this situation to develop in the first place.

We now have a great board, a great football department, but a list that is cactus.

Why did we win 14 games in 2006 when Luke Ball had chronic OP, Lenny missed half the year, Goose broke his leg, most of the list didn't even get a pre-season, we lost Aussie and Penny, we had more 6 day breaks than anyone, we travelled to Perth twice and played home games in Tassie....

....yet can't get out of our own way less than 18 months later?

The list that we actually had ain 2006 is much worse than what we have available right now.


Is this due to our relationship with Casey? Because no rookies? Because GT did contracts?



I'll answer it for you - No. It's not.


I'm pleased that you barrack for the Board and President, and CEO and 'moern footy dept', because at least you get something to cheer about. You're now able to brag to your mates about how well things look for you.

But me, I follow the footy team. You've got all the goods apparently now, but me - I follow a team that is coached poorly. A team was coached very well for 4 years straight, yet was the victim of people like you getting sucked in to thinking that off-field is more important and overrides what happens on field.


Do you have Rod Butterrss or Archie Fraser's number on the back of your duffle coat?

[rodgerfox]

We now have a great board, a great football department, but a list that is cactus.

You must be really proud.

Do you stand up in the grandstand with your bak to the game and cheer loudly at Archie and the Board up in the Medallion Club every week?

You should be stoked with how they're performing.

Me, I watch the team play. And we're shiit. We were very good, and we still have a very good list with some unbeleivable footballing talent - but the club seems to think that what goes on up in the Medallion Club is more important.


Good luck. I suppose the AGM is your 'Grand Final'?

[Saints43]

[How we gave up not just pick 6 BUT ALSO PICK 31 for Brooks as if 6 wasn't enough is mindboggling in the extreme

We got pick six because we had just traded Everitt to Hawthorn.

Getting rid of Everitt was a great thing for the club in terms of mentality and salary cap.

Who were our other ruckmen in 2003? Matthew Capuano.

There was some desperation to bring in a big man.

Brooks was looking alright until he got injured.

Port had used pick 15 to pick him up so he was rated. And they sort of had the whip hand in the deal.

[JT]

1. FACT is the list wasn't developed for 10 years of sustained success, it was a smash and grab, but unfortunately the gamble backfired

Agree with your post as a whole however disagree that the list wasn't built for 10 years of success. At that time we had a rule not to recruit any player over 25 or any player who couldn't play 100 games for the club.

It is only recently that we abandoned this rule.

[st.byron]

The list that we actually had ain 2006 is much worse than what we have available right now.

Rog, am a little confused. If, as you so strongly advocate, we're re-building, how can the current list be better than 2006?

[rodgerfox]

The list that we actually had ain 2006 is much worse than what we have available right now.

Rog, am a little confused. If, as you so strongly advocate, we're re-building, how can the current list be better than 2006?

Who's strongly advocated that we're rebuilding?

[barks4eva]

[How we gave up not just pick 6 BUT ALSO PICK 31 for Brooks as if 6 wasn't enough is mindboggling in the extreme

And they sort of had the whip hand in the deal.

Whip hand's is something you know very well.

[congorozides]

i forgot about brookesy!
whats he doing now? he still play footy?

[St.Kenny]

Still cant believe Teflon and Barks show their snouts on this site after what they and other whiteants have done to this club. They will never be truly happy until the dark dim days of the 70's have returned. They'd be watering Telstra Dome centre square at midnight at Telstra if they had their way. Two of the saddest and blindest posters ever to visit this site. At the end of the day they must put their hands up for their part in this mess. But will they? Not a snow flakes chance in hell. They resort to the smoke screen of what GT should have done and what they would do etc etc etc. Heard it all before from these gallahs and frankly couldnt care less. Just because they couldnt handle a bit of success and the expectations which come with it , it doesnt mean every other ST.Kilda supporter is the same. Why couldnt you guys just drop off for a few years and let us have our glory whilst you guys suck eggs for a little while. We actually enjoyed finals. Jealousy is a terrible thing but your bitterness is what really irks me fellas. You had to spoil it for the rest of us.

[barks4eva]

Still cant believe Teflon and Barks show their snouts on this site after what they and other whiteants have done to this club. They will never be truly happy until the dark dim days of the 70's have returned. They'd be watering Telstra Dome centre square at midnight at Telstra if they had their way. Two of the saddest and blindest posters ever to visit this site. At the end of the day they must put their hands up for their part in this mess. But will they? Not a snow flakes chance in hell. They resort to the smoke screen of what GT should have done and what they would do etc etc etc. Heard it all before from these gallahs and frankly couldnt care less. Just because they couldnt handle a bit of success and the expectations which come with it , it doesnt mean every other ST.Kilda supporter is the same. Why couldnt you guys just drop off for a few years and let us have our glory whilst you guys suck eggs for a little while. We actually enjoyed finals. Jealousy is a terrible thing but your bitterness is what really irks me fellas. You had to spoil it for the rest of us.

Obviously the decision to exit Thomas was made by bored members, contrary to what's been reported.


Just like to clear a few things up

I remember it like it was yesterday, I rang teflon and said, what ya think mate, I'm looking at exiting Grant out, he agreed, we got onto joffaboy and realized we had the numbers, we were going to wait until the 14th but knew the press would be all over it, so we did it on the 12th.

Personally, I'm just glad Butterss still cops most of the flak for this and most people seem to be none the wiser, but not you St.Kenny, nothing gets past you, thought we'd managed the coup quite well to be honest, until of course, you popped up and outed us as the instigators behind the whole sinister plot,

and as plot thicken's so do you St.Kenny, so do you!

[Saintlyone]

Gee whilst on the subject of Barks. How does the money we are paying the coach match up with the wins we have had. You have spouted on endlessly about GT's renumeration and his contribution to the club. How does RL weigh up in this area? Maybe just maybe you have a private agenda which is not in the St.Kilda FC interests!! Your own self interest in gaining notoriety as a stalker.

[st.byron]

blah blah blah blah blah balh........... resort to the smoke screen of what GT should have done and what they would do etc etc etc. Heard it all before from these gallahs and frankly couldnt care less. ........blah blah blah blah blah

If you couldn't care less Kenny why are you bothering with your rant? Obviously you do care and are going out of your way to make your point. You're a one track record Kenny.

[SENsei]

Still cant believe Teflon and Barks show their snouts on this site after what they and other whiteants have done to this club. They will never be truly happy until the dark dim days of the 70's have returned. They'd be watering Telstra Dome centre square at midnight at Telstra if they had their way. Two of the saddest and blindest posters ever to visit this site. At the end of the day they must put their hands up for their part in this mess. But will they? Not a snow flakes chance in hell. They resort to the smoke screen of what GT should have done and what they would do etc etc etc. Heard it all before from these gallahs and frankly couldnt care less. Just because they couldnt handle a bit of success and the expectations which come with it , it doesnt mean every other ST.Kilda supporter is the same. Why couldnt you guys just drop off for a few years and let us have our glory whilst you guys suck eggs for a little while. We actually enjoyed finals. Jealousy is a terrible thing but your bitterness is what really irks me fellas. You had to spoil it for the rest of us.

Obviously the decision to exit Thomas was made by bored members, contrary to what's been reported.


Just like to clear a few things up

I remember it like it was yesterday, I rang teflon and said, what ya think mate, I'm looking at exiting Grant out, he agreed, we got onto joffaboy and realized we had the numbers, we were going to wait until the 14th but knew the press would be all over it, so we did it on the 12th.

Personally, I'm just glad Butterss still cops most of the flak for this and most people seem to be none the wiser, but not you St.Kenny, nothing gets past you, thought we'd managed the coup quite well to be honest, until of course, you popped up and outed us as the instigators behind the whole sinister plot,

and as plot thicken's so do you St.Kenny, so do you!

Were you also on the grassy knoll?

I think it's a long bow to draw to say that B4E or any other internet forum knob jockey (as we all are) could cause the sacking of the bootstudder, let alone the greatest man manager in living memory.

I always laugh at Andy Maher, who says the 'natives are restless' at different clubs.

As if that makes a scrap of difference.

[Saints43]

[How we gave up not just pick 6 BUT ALSO PICK 31 for Brooks as if 6 wasn't enough is mindboggling in the extreme

And they sort of had the whip hand in the deal.

Whip hand's is something you know very well.

Hilarious. Another gem about Battering the Ham.

What should we have done with pick 6, Ghost of Drafts Past?

Should we have gone into season 2003 with Capuano as our only ruckman after Everitt was exited?

[SENsei]

Whatever happened to Mark Wittison?

[St.Kenny]

Gee Barks. Wonder if you care to be as expansive on the subject of getting value for money from the current coach.....who you trumpeted as our saviour. In my opinion RL is more 'basement' than 'bargain' im sure you'd agree after 18 months.

Then there's the petty subject of Rix's progress which you're even quiter on. You light the fire mate and your chorus of losers (ie Lord Byron) will blow the smoke to distract us all. Or are you both one of the same?

Of course i'm aware you and your cyber nobodies are more concerned with your own 'sacks' to actually have a winning coach the sack, however the fact all you (and the rest with blood on their hands) show up here endlessly spouting without remorse is what stirs me to take aim.