Critical decision for club. List vs. Coach: What do u think?

[kaos theory]

Let’s face it, currently our coaching department is failing. They have till the end of the yr to show some real positives, but things are not looking good.

Assuming we miss the finals, the board will have to undertake a detailed assessment of our footy department and make some very important decisions. To make the right decision it needs to build a good understanding of the causes to our downturn, so that it has a good chance to get it right. If we don't properly understand the causes and make the wrong decisions, we will spiral further down into some dark times.

It's pretty clear that our failing lies in either the deterioration of the playing list (relative to the competition), OR the failure of the coaching department to harness our assets, OR a bit of both. Where the board comes down on this will mean potentially very different actions.

Lets clearly layout the potential causes:

A: 100% Coaching Failure: We have a top 4 list, but the coaching is bad. Too negative, confusing the players, loss of confidence and the coach has lost the players, etc.

B: 70% Coaching Failure & 30% List Deterioration: Our problem is mainly the coach & his methods, but the quality of our list has also deteriorated over the last 3 years due to poor recruiting & player development & management.

C: 50% Coach Failure & 50% List Deterioration: As above, but an even contribution to our poor performance from both the coaching and list weaknesses.

D: 30% Coach Failures & 70% List Deterioration: The biggest contributing factor is our list, which has deteriorated badly, relative to the competition. The coaching has been ok, but could be better.

E: 100% List Deterioration: The coaching is fine, RL & his team are on the right track, its just that our list has deteriorated significantly over the years, relative to the competition, we lack skill, pace, and depth to make the finals, no matter who the coach.

Decsions the Board should take based on the above:

A: The coaching team should be sacked. Don't wait another year. Accept we made an error in choosing RL, and find a more suitable replacement.

B: If B, then look closely at sacking the coahing panel, if a suitable replacement can be found. At very least a major overhaul will need to occur, and some of the assistance will have to go and new game plan will have to be looked at.

C: Keep the coach, but implement a major overhual to the coaching team. E.g. new game plan, new assistance, etc. Work harder to recuit the right playes, look at trading

D: Make some changes to the coaching panel & game plan, work hard on recuiting & player development.

E: Work hard on recuiting & player development, trade agressively, build on youth policy.

So what do you all currently think? Where do the causes of our problems lie, is it A, B, C, D, or E?
.

[borderbarry]

I would go a B at this stage. Definitely look at new forward and midfield assistant coaches.

[Hard at it]

C: 50% Coach Failure & 50% List Deterioration: As above, but an even contribution to our poor performance from both the coaching and list weaknesses.

D: 30% Coach Failures & 70% List Deterioration: The biggest contributing factor is our list, which has deteriorated badly, relative to the competition. The coaching has been ok, but could be better.

I would put it some where around these 2. Whilst RL hasn't set the world on fire, he was left with a list with plenty of flaws, and with really no good young talent coming through.

[saint66au]

Pretty simple really...

Pro-GT agenda = coach

Anti-GT agenda = list

[bobmurray]

D: 30% Coach Failures & 70% List Deterioration: [/u] The biggest contributing factor is our list, which has deteriorated badly, relative to the competition. The coaching has been ok, but could be better.

The playing list definitely has the wrong mix,it needs a big shakeup,maybe the coaching panel needs a tweak as well,a decent kicking coach wouldn't go astray....

I'm starting to think our next premiership captain is still playing Auskick......

[Washedup]

I would put it at C. Ross Lyon definitely does not deserve any praises since he has taken over, but he came on board an already sinking ship. List management has cost us severely and i expect us to go backwards even further regardless who is coaching us at the moment. We are a middle of the ladder team and that's about where we sit.

[Washedup]

D: 30% Coach Failures & 70% List Deterioration: [/u] The biggest contributing factor is our list, which has deteriorated badly, relative to the competition. The coaching has been ok, but could be better.

The playing list definitely has the wrong mix,it needs a big shakeup,maybe the coaching panel needs a tweak as well,a decent kicking coach wouldn't go astray....

I'm starting to think our next premiership captain is still playing Auskick......

I wouldn't think our next premiership captain has been born yet, unfortunately his parents may not have either

[suss]

D. What a good post kt.

[S.A Saint]

i would say C. there is no pint in sacking the coach unless the right person is available (im not sure who that is). with the comments that lyon has made this week about the youth policy. i am interested to see what way he goes about selecting the players or will he just continue to select the same player that have proven they are no up to afl level

[maverick]

Pretty simple really...

Pro-GT agenda = coach

Anti-GT agenda = list

Not really that simple.
I for one am in neither camp but if I think the coach is as bad as Timmy does that mean I am suddenly pro GT?

[bergsone]

Pretty simple really...

Pro-GT agenda = coach

Anti-GT agenda = list

Not really that simple.
I for one am in neither camp but if I think the coach is as bad as Timmy does that mean I am suddenly pro GT?

Agree in neither camp as a lot of other posters are,but sh#t its frustrating, the pro and anti are sometimes so feral

[SainterX]

pro GT means pro looking good and pro free flowing football.

pro RL means pro mediocrity and pro boring football.

It's funny, if we modelled our gameplan on any other teams rather than Sydneys from a few years ago we would probably be doing better.

[saint66au]

True enough..wasnt lumping everyone in the same basket..more pointing out that the Pro/Anti GT factions will use this thread, like dozens of others, to push their agendas

[saintsRrising]

C to D

Pretty simple really...

Pro-GT agenda = coach

Anti-GT agenda = list

I actually disagree with this as they are two seperate issues.

One issue is whether GT should have gone or not.

My view as posted BEFORE he left that he was destroying our list and hence needed to go.

His successor's performance is an entirely seperate issue. And GT's successor in his coaching role (as GT had a broader role) could succeed or fail.

At present Lyon is struggling.

Though it is also true that the list was no where as good as it many thought it was. to me the writing was on the wall fora while as our drafts and trades were post Waldron on the whole shoddy....and DEVELOPMENT of players bugger all (for example ONLY this year has Casey been set up correctly to develop players. ie Armo gets droped and playes exactly where we want him to at Casey to improve. This just did not happen under GT).

Remember too that there is lag of 2-4 years in drafting a kid and in then getting high quality football out of him, apart froma few freaks like Judd and Selwood etc. This past neglect is hurting as now as we do not have that raft of players with 2-4 years evelopment under their belts to come in now.

However in my opinion the list as it is has the potential to be a top 8 team this year. If RL does not achieve this by sesons end then I would say that he is failing.


Players such as Joey should be delivering more than they are.

As shoud Roo...and Dal..

Now some is in the players hands and heads (ie Roo was nailing goals at practice at the SCG pre-game withouta problem.....but come game time missed 3 gettable shots with his onlt goal being the instinctive one. All three where he had time to think about his shot...he muffed).

But some is alos that the coach needs to inspire and motivate.

[BigMart]

Is the list that bad....

Yes injuries have taken their toll...but we have some VG players in their prime....and some VG vetrans......and a few good kids...

Not many are actually playing good footy....why?

I think it is structural.....and philosophical

Goddard is too deep back.....Riewoldt is too deep fwd.....
We should be playing with 6 mids and hold a 5 man fwd line....2-2-1
A 6 man Back line...Gram/X/Dal to get the weakest/no oppoinent
Goddard/Gram/X to join mids rotation with Ball/Hayes/Joey/Dal/Harvs/Armo/Birss to give us 10 players running through the middle of the ground

We have a lot of naturally attacking players second guessing themselves..
Riewoldt, Harvey, Gram, Fisher, Goddard, Dal, X, Fiora, Montagna, Milne, Schnieder all very positive players....playing very negative footy....

[Teflon]

Good post.

I have been puzzling over this for some time and to me D is closest to the mark.

Its futile suggesting structural changes will suddenly produce players who can kick straight, hit up a team mate or do the 1% tackles, smothers shepherds that we've been known for previousl.

Am amazed some are still in the "coach will hit the magic structure fit to page button"...

Collingwood lost by 5 goals today - Mick Malthouse response????? "we got smashed in contested posession"......guess where we get flogged weekly?

Thats not structure to me - thats effort and intensity.

Malthouse didnt become a cr@p coach today - his players failed to maintain the effort against a Carlton side who simply wanted it more.

[mad saint guy]

B. Plenty of teams have inferior/similar lists to us and are performing better,

[kaos theory]

Forgot to add my selesction:

C: (was slightly leaning to d, but now c)


As bigmart & others are saying there are some worrying signs about our style of play and the way proven players are now performing....

To clarify, if the board think its A, then obviuosly the coach needs to go. If B, then probably should go as well, assuming we are confident we can get a suitable replacement, without too much turmoil.....

The members thoughts will also be important, because they will to some degree influence the board, though the board should not make any knee jeck reactions to member frustrations...There needs to be a detailed assessment.

[BigMart]

Mick Malthouse sides don't do that week in week out.......and niether does B.Fevola......

Collingwood were beaten today because their intensity was down....today.......yes....and that is a trademark of theirs, without it they are very ordinary....look at their line up.

We lost because our intensity has been down for X amount of weeks....why?......

We won 8 of our last 11 last year....with a similar (if not worse) list of players.....has the coach lost the players??....is it his job to manage the 'cattle'???....atm they look as dissinterested as a Melbourne side...luckily with a bit more talent.

Something stinks at Moorabbin.....

Fish normally start rotting at the head!

[desertsaint]

B: 70% Coaching Failure & 30% List Deterioration: Our problem is mainly the coach & his methods, but the quality of our list has also deteriorated over the last 3 years due to poor recruiting & player development & management..

If the list has deteriorated 'due to poor recruiting & player development & management' then this is surely a coaching problem also?

Bottom line - the current coaching group has not performed, the team hasn't performed.

Will a better coach get more from the list?
Is the current coach able to develop a new look group from scratch? (this was NOT why he was appointed - if this need (if it is a need) was identified by the selection panel WOULD Lyon have got the job?
(anything in his CV that suggests he can?))

Not pro GT (but an undoubted mistake to sack him - with hindsight) or (originally) anti RL

Pro St Kilda!

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

Nice post kaos theory.

I would select option D.

Critical time for the club now...the rest of the year really needs to be focusing on development of the youngsters and finding out which of the "middle tier" players are worth keeping. Crucial draft next year as it will be the last one before the Gold Coast team gets draft benefits.

[T.S BAY 16 Telstra Dome]

D. Anyone that thinks we have a list to be in the mix for the flag are kidding themselves. Our list has gone backwards for the last 3-4 years mainly due to poor decisions in trading/drafting. How many Rising Star nominations have we had in that time? About 2?
Not too many people would be happy with the way Ross Lyon is going, myself included, but i honestly think he has us sitting roughly where our list lies.......mid table

[evertonfc]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

[saintsRrising]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

It is....as Matthews said the fits thing a coach needs to do is builda good list (or words to that effect).

However I look the OP. to be referring Coaching of the players once at the club....vs list management.

With list mangement it is worked on each year.

Lyon has only had two dips to the well...and so most of the list is the result of others.

There is only so much churn that coach can do in one or two years.

Kids for eaxmplae take 2 to 4 years of development in the main (Selwoods, Judss and roos are the exception and not the rule).

The list Lyon took over was bereft of kids....and also had way to many players ripe for delisting.

[Backwards Fast]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

Definitely the coaches responsibilty.
Since Grant Thomas inherited a host of players due to the appointment of Blight and a plethora of early draft picks, he went back against his word of creating a team capable of success for 10+ yrs.
Terrible list management is
Trading picks 6 and 31 for Barry (I could never play) Brooks
Making a 3 way trade with Freo and Rich, where Stk (Fiora) easily got the worst of the deal
Picking up hacks from other clubs like Ackland, McGough etc
Trading for a guy like Guerra, playing him 31 games in 2 years (therefore better than guys in the reserves) then chopping him off the list for NO return.
Trading our first round draft pick for Fergus Watts (1 game)
On top of those debacles we recruited guys like
Gwilt, Rix, Raymond, Sweeney who have added nothing. That i'm afraid are some of the key reasons why we are in the predicament that we are right now.
We are a D at best