WHo has to go?

[To the top]

Matrixcutter, for the record Watts kicked 10 in a Prelimary Final, 3 in the Grand Final in a beaten side for whom he was near best and then was traded to St Kilda, to Neil Craig's immense annoyance.

And those performances were in the SANFL where the standard is far superior to the VFL.

But to buy back into this debate, as I said earlier, it is a matter of around whom should we structure a side - then make decisions on who is "surplus" to needs - and why.

As I have put somewhere else, I would be looking to build around something like this :-

Howard Gilbert (Tall 194cm potential CHB type)
Gram (194cm CHB type) S. Fisher
Hayes Goddard Riewoldt
X. Clarke Koschitzke (taller, mobile, goal kicking half forward)
Steven Allen Ball
M. Gardiner DalSanto Montagna

R. Clarke, McEvoy, Armitage (pacy mid-field type).

There are reservations regarding Howard, Steven, McEvoy, Armitage and Allen - but we have to see if they can perform - and keep our fingers crossed that they do.

This side highlights two fundamental deficiencies :-


1) The absence of key defenders (Maguire is not dismissed, but is in the "bonus" catagory, so we need cover). This deficiency is further highlighted by the fact that the 2 key defenders at Casey are not St Kilda listed players, so the options are currently non existent.

2) Under those players listed we have a group of, at best, GOP's making up the remainder of our list in 2007 (King, Hudgden and Harvey may continue and all would benefit the side chosen) and THAT is the problem. That is the reason we have to cross our fingers in regards the foregoing side, hope 5 of the kids stand up and give the energy and excitement - then and add a couple more, in the specific positions where there are the identified gaps (because we currently do not have the potential on our list to fill those gaps).

The fact that we talk about the Ferguson's, the McQualter's, the Attard's, the Baker's and the like (all with a touch of the same about them - and that continues on thru the Fiora's, the Blakes', the Milne's and the rest) IS the problem.

And the reason we are being so savagely exposed for our list management shortfalls over recent years.

You can not go backwards, you have to always concentrate on the future - and that means continuing to build by continuing to recruit talented, energetic and exciting youth.

They are out there and we have to identify them - and even hide them away from the established recruiting grounds (how many nominate to be drafted, and how many are actually drafted?).

They do not have to be 17 or 18 to show the potential - I knew a club once which recruited kids from 13 year upwards, accomodated them, held them out of school footy and then registered them - the history of the Adelaide Coach confirms the foregoing.

And he was not the only one.

[Otiman]

Developing Gilbert as a Full Back is akin to developing Ferguson as a Half Back Flanker cum Key Defender.

[To the top]

Keep watching Otiman!

That is where Gilbert will finish up, sooner rather than later.

[Ghost Like]

Matrixcutter, for the record Watts kicked 10 in a Prelimary Final, 3 in the Grand Final in a beaten side for whom he was near best and then was traded to St Kilda, to Neil Craig's immense annoyance.

And those performances were in the SANFL where the standard is far superior to the VFL.

But to buy back into this debate, as I said earlier, it is a matter of around whom should we structure a side - then make decisions on who is "surplus" to needs - and why.

As I have put somewhere else, I would be looking to build around something like this :-

Howard Gilbert (Tall 194cm potential CHB type)
Gram (194cm CHB type) S. Fisher
Hayes Goddard Riewoldt
X. Clarke Koschitzke (taller, mobile, goal kicking half forward)
Steven Allen Ball
M. Gardiner DalSanto Montagna

R. Clarke, McEvoy, Armitage (pacy mid-field type).

There are reservations regarding Howard, Steven, McEvoy, Armitage and Allen - but we have to see if they can perform - and keep our fingers crossed that they do.

This side highlights two fundamental deficiencies :-


1) The absence of key defenders (Maguire is not dismissed, but is in the "bonus" catagory, so we need cover). This deficiency is further highlighted by the fact that the 2 key defenders at Casey are not St Kilda listed players, so the options are currently non existent.

2) Under those players listed we have a group of, at best, GOP's making up the remainder of our list in 2007 (King, Hudgden and Harvey may continue and all would benefit the side chosen) and THAT is the problem. That is the reason we have to cross our fingers in regards the foregoing side, hope 5 of the kids stand up and give the energy and excitement - then and add a couple more, in the specific positions where there are the identified gaps (because we currently do not have the potential on our list to fill those gaps).

The fact that we talk about the Ferguson's, the McQualter's, the Attard's, the Baker's and the like (all with a touch of the same about them - and that continues on thru the Fiora's, the Blakes', the Milne's and the rest) IS the problem.

And the reason we are being so savagely exposed for our list management shortfalls over recent years.

You can not go backwards, you have to always concentrate on the future - and that means continuing to build by continuing to recruit talented, energetic and exciting youth.

They are out there and we have to identify them - and even hide them away from the established recruiting grounds (how many nominate to be drafted, and how many are actually drafted?).

They do not have to be 17 or 18 to show the potential - I knew a club once which recruited kids from 13 year upwards, accomodated them, held them out of school footy and then registered them - the history of the Adelaide Coach confirms the foregoing.

And he was not the only one.

Excellent post.

[skeptic]

Keep watching Otiman!

That is where Gilbert will finish up, sooner rather than later.

Robbing peter to pay paul?

To me, Gilbert looked really good as a HFF... hard running, tackling, rotating into the midfield. Good defensive pressure, good attacking flare.

To me he looked good there... has been awful all year as KPP

don't know if we should push this on Sam just coz we've got no one better

[Animal Enclosure]

You raise some very salient points To The Top nad I agree with 99% of what you have posted but I just cannot understand your constant bagging of Steve Baker.

Bakes is so vital to this side as he's one of the few that will sacrifice his body to smother, tackle, 2nd effort, shepherd, defend & in general kill himself for his teammates.

Under the previous regime the team commitment for 'selfless acts' was one of the great things to witness. I have almost forgotten what it is like to see true commitment to the team, regardless of game plans, etc.

Bakes, Bally & Lenny are seemingly the only blokes who are still committed to doing the hard work. How you can possible throw him in the group with some seriously ordinary footballers absolutely stuns me.

[To the top]

I take your point Animal Enclosure, and it is harsh to be critical of Baker because of his characteristics, characteristics we all acknowledge and admire.

He did jointly win a Best and Faiest a few years ago, and that is testament to his characteristics - he has got the very best out of himself.

But to quote Craig again, the game has moved on - even this season by a considerable margin as the sheer pace and accuracy of movement by the top teams has exceeded anything seen in past years.

It is a possesion game - look at Footscray's performance against us where having Dal Santo, Ball and Hayes in our mid-field, and Dal Santo and Ball in our very best on the day did not do it for us.

Montagna got some excellent service from Gardiner, but did not have the support and was stifled.

We got cut up badly in the middle of the ground, where footy games are won and lost.



I have a couple of issues with Baker at this later juncture in his career.

He can not run, carry and dispose resulting in his game being one-dimensional - and we have far too many who can be similarly described.

He can be taken to a deep defensive position where (as with Aussie Jones so he is no orphan) he can be exposed overhead.

These observations means he impedes team flexibility.

Because where does he play and on whom? Could we have put him on Cooney or Griffith last weekend - because if he is a premier tagger he has to take the premier mid-fielder from the opposition. Simply both of these players are too tall, too skilled and too fast for Baker now. And it is the same with all other sides.

No longer can he cut a Gary Ablett out of the game, and Geelong would throw Ablett to full forward to further expose him.

In terms of those mid-fielders mentioned, St Kilda FC needs to fight fire with fire if it is to improve. St Kilda FC have to uncover players better than those players - not go back to Baker to negate them.

In Baker's Best and Fairest year he kept Ablett kickless.

There is also the appearance of culture at St Kilda, something that has still to be changed.

I fully recognise that this is the harshest criticism of all, but Baker representing the heart and soul of the St Kilda FC is not where St Kilda FC wants to be, needs to be or should be.

Difficult to put into words, but I would like to see St Kilda being recognised because we idolise players who have excellent footballing skills, who bring those sublime skills, energy and excitement to the club (not team, you note).

Yes you need players doing the "hard yards" in the contest for the pill when that contest is hot and bodies are crashing in looking to get it and use it, but your idols should be doing that - also.

It is the lack of "also" with Steven Baker, therefore he is not an icon football player, merely a scrapper who gets the best out of himself, is now ageing, is now diminishing (including because the game is passing him by), is now under the umpire's attention and is finding there are less and less players he can match up on.

It is time for the hard call if St Kilda FC is to move on.

And it sends a message about what St Kilda FC is aspiring toward.

[Ralphy]

I take your point Animal Enclosure, and it is harsh to be critical of Baker because of his characteristics, characteristics we all acknowledge and admire.

He did jointly win a Best and Faiest a few years ago, and that is testament to his characteristics - he has got the very best out of himself.

But to quote Craig again, the game has moved on - even this season by a considerable margin as the sheer pace and accuracy of movement by the top teams has exceeded anything seen in past years.

It is a possesion game - look at Footscray's performance against us where having Dal Santo, Ball and Hayes in our mid-field, and Dal Santo and Ball in our very best on the day did not do it for us.

Montagna got some excellent service from Gardiner, but did not have the support and was stifled.

We got cut up badly in the middle of the ground, where footy games are won and lost.



I have a couple of issues with Baker at this later juncture in his career.

He can not run, carry and dispose resulting in his game being one-dimensional - and we have far too many who can be similarly described.

He can be taken to a deep defensive position where (as with Aussie Jones so he is no orphan) he can be exposed overhead.

These observations means he impedes team flexibility.

Because where does he play and on whom? Could we have put him on Cooney or Griffith last weekend - because if he is a premier tagger he has to take the premier mid-fielder from the opposition. Simply both of these players are too tall, too skilled and too fast for Baker now. And it is the same with all other sides.

No longer can he cut a Gary Ablett out of the game, and Geelong would throw Ablett to full forward to further expose him.

In terms of those mid-fielders mentioned, St Kilda FC needs to fight fire with fire if it is to improve. St Kilda FC have to uncover players better than those players - not go back to Baker to negate them.

In Baker's Best and Fairest year he kept Ablett kickless.

There is also the appearance of culture at St Kilda, something that has still to be changed.

I fully recognise that this is the harshest criticism of all, but Baker representing the heart and soul of the St Kilda FC is not where St Kilda FC wants to be, needs to be or should be.

Difficult to put into words, but I would like to see St Kilda being recognised because we idolise players who have excellent footballing skills, who bring those sublime skills, energy and excitement to the club (not team, you note).

Yes you need players doing the "hard yards" in the contest for the pill when that contest is hot and bodies are crashing in looking to get it and use it, but your idols should be doing that - also.

It is the lack of "also" with Steven Baker, therefore he is not an icon football player, merely a scrapper who gets the best out of himself, is now ageing, is now diminishing (including because the game is passing him by), is now under the umpire's attention and is finding there are less and less players he can match up on.

It is time for the hard call if St Kilda FC is to move on.

And it sends a message about what St Kilda FC is aspiring toward.

no not the right move you do not get rid of baker.!

[Teflon]

Good post TTT - I agree and have said this about Baker also. He is simply to one dimensional for a modern game tagger akaLing/Sewell who kick a goal and get their own footy also.

Sadly for Maguire too fits this (although again sadly injury may tell the tale) but regardless of his injuries I actually agreed with Thomas' assessment in that he simply doesnt have the necessary flexibility of movement to play the modern game - he can only run in a straight line FFS and has the turnign circle of a truck.

Our biggest problem moving forward isnt that we have to make hard decisions - its that you cant do it all in 1 off season and expect to bounce back totop 4 in 09. IMHO your looking at least at a 2 yr change and thats gonna take some very smart recruiting in an environment with new teams etc oming in....

To me we HAVE to trade hard THIS year,utilise a NEW full compliment of rookies and DEVELOP the Armo's , Stevens, McEvoys as soon as possible to take advantage of a core that should stillcontain Riewoldt,Ball, Dal Santo, Montagna, Hayes etc.

[To the top]

Ralphysaints35, it is fair enough that you love Baker.

Many others do too, just as they loved Tony Lockett.

But I want St Kilda FC to be successsful, and to be successful you need to be able to point to more than one Premiership Cup, won in 1966.

I am not saying that that is Baker's fault, far from it, but read what I have written and super impose on that that I want St Kilda to be celebrating on Grand Final Days (plural).

All indicators show that we are slipping off the pace - and that has to be firstly arrested and then corrected.

When we see a Cooney in the opposition team, we have to be confident that we have someone better in the red, white and black.

So how far down the lists of the contending sides do you go before you find the equal of Steven Baker these days?

Who do you bracket Baker with, and then attend the comparative.

And it is not just Baker I run that rule over, it is just that someone said they 99% agree with my views, EXCEPT re Baker, so he comes into focus for that reason.

I have reasons in regards many others!

Just havn't been questioned on them!