Positives for Ross Lyon

[the shadow]

There seems to be plenty of negative feedback about Ross Lyon on this forum. Most of the posts about him point out what appear to be considerable faults. His defenders seem to attack his critics rather than extol his virtues. For those who defend him, can you state the following:

1. What are his positive qualities?
2. How has he improved the club / team?
3. What strategies has he put in place that will ensure future success?
4. Who has improved under his coaching? Who is likely to?
5. Has he improved the list and how?
6. What facts can you provide to support the notion we are on the right track? (Facts only please, not just the usual vitriol that I'm prepared to cop for daring to question RL and his supporters)

I'm genuinely interested. I'm not a Lyon fan, but being a passionate sainter I'd like to share in the optimism and enthusiasm some posters have for the coach.

On a more disturbing note that may or may not have anything to do with the coach, I was told by a couple of staff members that the atmosphere around the club is like that in a cemetery. The exact words were, "This place is no fun to be around anymore." The finger was pointed at Archie Fraser, who you will recall ran into some problems last year with allegations of bullying and harassment of female staff.

Another allegation was that Barker, Rock and Silvagni are totally aloof and don't give anyone but the coach or players the time of day. Several staff and a couple of volunteers are pretty miffed at the moment. Symptoms of a wider malaise?

[rodgerfox]

Very good thread.

In all the Lyon defence, I still haven't heard a reason why he is any good.

The questions you raise are valid - and applicable to any coach when assessing whether or not they are any good.

I can pretty confidently say that I draw a blank to all of them for Lyon right now.

[spert]

I am not encouraged by talk of off-field unhappiness in the admin area and also with coaching staff being aloof...if that is true, it is not good.

Now onto RL..
1. What are his positive qualities? A:He was assistant to a top coach in a premiership team.I don't know of any other positive which is obvious.

2. How has he improved the club / team? A.No noticable improvement..maybe a few new players coming through..hasn't ruffled feathers

3. What strategies has he put in place that will ensure future success? A.Seems keen to blood more new young players, but should do it immediately

4. Who has improved under his coaching? Who is likely to? A.Playing list is standing still as far as I'm concerned

5. Has he improved the list and how? A.Not really improved

6. What facts can you provide to support the notion we are on the right track? (Facts only please, not just the usual vitriol that I'm prepared to cop for daring to question RL and his supporters). A. Every indication that this list should be achieving more, but isn't..noticable skills problems and forward line deficiencies, both in player ability and tactical plays.

I think we are at the crossroads right now as club, but I can't provide the answers, just to say we are treading water as the result of poor recruiting and previous coaching/ board issues, plus less than impressive current coaching I believe.

[The Fireman]

I can't for the life of me think of one redeeming attribute

[brown-coat]

He's probably a good assistant coach. Good at whispering ideas to a head coach.

But as a leader, motivator and tactician he fails, utterly fails on every level. Epic fail on a grand scale. The players clearly aren't trying, there is no team spirit or passion. Too many players have gone backwards or not improved.

Robert Walls helped to pick him. I don't want Lyon around for 10 years to turn us into a boring, negating team. I want him gone at seasons end and i want the saints to try a coach who embraces the qualities of passion and team spirit.

Failure written all over it.

[JeffDunne]

Good luck with this thread but I doubt you'll get the answers you are after.

It's probably worthwhile evaluating Ross on what he promised to bring to the club.

Some of his comments when he was given the job:

He said he would bring some of the Sydney style to Moorabbin and give it a "tweak".

"I'd like to get another ruckman . . . and you're always looking for more numbers to go through the midfield," Lyon said.

"Forward pressure is an area I'd like to add to as well."

``What I have learned is it's about character and the basics done over and over again. It's not about some mystical, magical formula,'' Lyon said.

He said he would add some ``structure and detail'' to different game situations.

He remained non-committal on St Kilda's rotating captaincy, saying he had not had time to consider it.

Lyon also baulked at talk of aiming for the top four. ``We're aiming to win enough games to get us into a strong position to challenge for a premiership,'' he said.

``I'm aiming to be successful. It's an exciting period. The reality of the AFL competition is the last six premiers have been interstate. The challenge is bridging the gap.''

That last comment actually makes me ill.

Other than signing up 3 aging ruckman (one out of retirement), I reckon he's failed to deliver in every area he promised to develop.

Lyon said he came to the realisation this year that he was ready. ``Once I was presented with the opportunity, I was confident I'd be in the mix and a very strong contender,'' he said.

I bet he was confident when it was a best mate presenting the opportunity.

Lyon said he had taken confidence from winning out through a such vigorous selection policy that could never be labelled ``jobs for the boys''.

Ok, now I've thrown up.

Rest of the article: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 88,00.html

[congorozides]

the way i see it. RL is trying to bring the swans of 2005 to the saints. Nuow the game has changed since then. even the swans play differently now. Geelong chose to move the ball much quicker and the rotations now happen much more. so the swans 2005 game plan he is set on introducing has already been evolved out and can be beaten. so he is stuck on an outdated game plan.

look at the swans scoring. they score much higher now than in 05.

RL got the job cos he said he would instill a game plan that would win a premiership and the saints game plan was exciting but wouldnt stand up to finals scrutiny (this was a prevailing idea back 2 years ago) - remember the Demetriou boring football comments????

But this has already been proven wrong and outdated. ANd teams have shown that exciting fast footy CAN win finals and CAN beat a negative team. All the other clubs now play differently and can move the ball quick enough to outplay a negative team like the swans of 05. Heck even the swans of 08 do not play like the swans of 05.

teams now focus on:

• moving the ball fast
  play on at all costs
  accurate kicking
  high intensity/interchange

RL is still trying to play his so called finals footy (because it suits his playing style and his personality and the 05 swans ) but the rest of the comp, INCLUDING THE SWANS and Paul Roos, have already moved on and left RL's 05 style in their wake.

WAKE UP RL. ADAPT, EVOLVE OR PERISH.

Charles Darwin said life is survival of those that adapt the best to their environment. RL is not adapting. He is holding resolute to an already outmoded philosophy. Deep down the players know this so are dis-ilusioned.

[spert]

It would have been good to have had a hungry coach, who really wanted to knock down the door to get the gig..rather than get RL who sounds like he was talked into the job. I would have preferred guys like Bond, or McKenna who sounded really keen.

[degruch]

Hmmm...yeah. Pretty damning stuff above.

I'm not a Lyon supporter, I'm a Saints supporter, and I'll back the club's decision to leave him on board in the name of stability and giving the guy a go, at least until his contract ends. Whilst I can't see anything outstandingly positive RL has contributed under his tenure, at least we don't appear to be any worse this year from the last...at this stage.

Considering the amount of upheaval within the club the past two years, it must be difficult to contribute much more than stability. He has blooded new players (maybe not as much as some would like), added some senior stability by maintaining the core playing group (for how long after this year, gawd only knows), plus added some senoir players with talent and experience, such as King and M. Gardiner, without costing the club much (which no doubt contributes to keeping the core playing group). It's worth noting that M. Clarke was brought in as a ruck mentor for Rix...it didn't work, but cost us nothing to try.

So, whilst it doesn't read as a stunning report card, the alternative of swapping coaches every 5 seconds and watching a mass player exodus has been avoided. Maybe, with the weight of media expectation lifted, the removal of some dead wood and a solid trading period, the plan will start to fall in place for RL in '09. However, I'm keen to see what will happen for the rest of '08...last week's performance as a team was still weak, but at least more individuals stood up (Dal, Ball, Jones, Gram, Gwilt, Max).

[matrix]

``What I have learned is it's about character and the basics done over and over again. It's not about some mystical, magical formula,''

basics?
what?....

ohhhhhhhh, like kicking skills and being fit enough to run for 4 quarters (with small periods of rest in between when u rotate players on the bench).

yup basics sure are handy.....

[iwantmeseats]

massive fail. All I can say.

[the shadow]

Doesn't the response to this thread say it all about old Ross?

[JeffDunne]

Doesn't the response to this thread say it all about old Ross?

I think it says more about the people that have blind faith in him.

It seems to me the only positive that his biggest supporters can come up with is that he's not Grant Thomas.

I guess that's enough for some even if it means years of mediocrity.

[maverick]

I think he's worse than Timid Timmy.
At least Timmy delivered us Nick and Kosi!!

[JeffDunne]

Well he succeeded in taking us backwards faster than Watson.

Timmid took half a season before destroying the team's spirit.

Ross took only a few weeks.

[JeffDunne]

*bump*


The silence is deafening.

[rodgerfox]

He's not Grant Thomas.

[The Fireman]

I have noticed as the week wears on some positive Lyons threads are starting to creep in..watch them disappear again after Saturday , I love the blind optimists..I used to be one. After a few days the bad game and poor coaching gives way to a fresh start and renewed optimism, I'm not sure what actually changes during that small space of time but hey, "SMLDTBO" sets in (Selective memory loss due to blind optimism) and we are back on track.

If by some incredible stretch of the imagination we were to win this weekend I would be more than happy to cop any criticism for my perceived negativity,(off to Thailand for a few weeks so will have to wait for my return) simply because I want us to be back in the winners circle...but...

[Buckets]

I have noticed as the week wears on some positive Lyons threads are starting to creep in..watch them disappear again after Saturday , I love the blind optimists..I used to be one. After a few days the bad game and poor coaching gives way to a fresh start and renewed optimism, I'm not sure what actually changes during that small space of time but hey, "SMLDTBO" sets in (Selective memory loss due to blind optimism) and we are back on track.

If by some incredible stretch of the imagination we were to win this weekend I would be more than happy to cop any criticism for my perceived negativity,(off to Thailand for a few weeks so will have to wait for my return) simply because I want us to be back in the winners circle...but...

Am always optimistic about our chances in any game! Thats the way it has always been. Wear my heart on my sleeve and i am always disappointed when we lose! But yes i suffer from SMLDTBO and proud of it!!!!!

[The Fireman]

Am always optimistic about our chances in any game! Thats the way it has always been. Wear my heart on my sleeve and i am always disappointed when we lose! But yes i suffer from SMLDTBO and proud of it!!!!!

So did I, time and a grasp on reality cured it.

[JeffDunne]

*bump*

[Huzzad]

Bit of a fence sitter when it comes to RL, but I thought I'd have a go

1. What are his positive qualities?
Hmmm this is a little iffy, I guess his past success has something to show. But I am not sure what else so far. Apparently has a great game plan, which we are yet to see.

2. How has he improved the club / team?
Several players have become more accountable and the list is a lot stronger than previous years, seems we have more depth. Also not getting fined for umpire comments and dissatisfaction with the AFL. Seems to stick to his job and focus. No media attention can be good media attention.

3. What strategies has he put in place that will ensure future success?
Like I said, game plan is still yet to be revealed. Seems to have a lot of long-term goals but I am not sure on the specifics

4. Who has improved under his coaching? Who is likely to?
Young guns seem to really step up, take the responsibility. Rather than focus on possessions, they play the team game. Seems willing to cut players for not performing, but has also given too many duds a second chance.

5. Has he improved the list and how?
Well Scneider and Dempster have added depth (both very off and on at the moment, but with form these two will add alot). Not sure who else has come to the helm because of Ross. Could say Mission. While we have had injuries, the soft tissues do seem to be slowing down (bar Max, X). So there is definatly some improvement. But mostly off the feild.

6. What facts can you provide to support the notion we are on the right track?
Honestly, I have none.

Well I guess I seem pretty unconvinced about Lyon. I like the guy, cannot really fault him off the feild. But on the feild I am still uncertain. Anyway, thought I'd hae a crack.

[Animal Enclosure]

1. What are his positive qualities?
He gives mediocre players numerous opportunities to remain on the list. He doesn't allow pesky talented youngsters opportunities to show up these above mentioned magnificent mediocres.

2. How has he improved the club / team?
Casey has become an outstanding club due to the enthusiasm provided by St.Kilda listed young players. Supporters providing huge boost to depression counsellor industry.

3. What strategies has he put in place that will ensure future success?
Quote "We need speed in the midfield & youth obviously" (R.Lyon last seen entering amphetamines lab run by troubled teens.)

4. Who has improved under his coaching? Who is likely to?
Bally, Lenny, Kosi (well they're playing much better on the field than on the long term injury list)

5. Has he improved the list and how?
Serious answer... we have two decent ruckmen & a few very impressive youngsters (who play almost exclusively for Casey). Delisting of serious duds was good. Re-drafting of one was part of the 'rewarding mediocrity' program.

6. What facts can you provide to support the notion we are on the right track?
ahh...ummm...errr.... we're still part of the AFL???

[battye]

Positives:

Half of his contract is over

[axcellence]

Most of his remaining supporters besides Robert Walls and possibly Greg Westaway are the ones on drugs.... big positive... hopefully, when they get down from their high, they'll note that theyare being blindly loyal.

E.g. Supporting George W Bush does not mean you support USA (infact, it might mean reverse).