If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it

[Life Long Saint]

One thing that history has shown us is that it takes an insider to get the best out of St Kilda.

Our most successful era was the 1960's when a former St Kilda player was the the coach of the club. Alan Jeans coached St Kilda to 3 grand finals and one premiership. We also made the finals in 9 of his 16 years.

Our next most successful was when a former assistant coach and skills coach Stan Alves coached the club. Although Stan never actually played for St Kilda he spent a long time as our skills coach under Ken Sheldon. Enough to get an understanding of the culture and requirements needed to get the club headed in the right direction. After some initial recruiting disasters, he made the very tough call on Plugger and traded him for youth. That call saw a core group of players win the 1996 pre-season comp (when it mattered). This was the club's first silverware for 30 years! He also coached the team to the 1997 Grand Final where a lack of ruckmen and moves saw us lose. We also made the pre-season Grand Final in 1998 and the finals in the same year.

After that Grant Thomas coached the club to three successive finals appearances making the Preliminary Finals twice. Like Alves, he too saw the need to inject youth and rebuild the side. His vision for the club, shared with Rod Butterss and Brian Waldron saw anyone that did not tow the line depart from the club. Barry Hall and Peter Everitt were victims of this "my way or the highway" approach. Once again that youth policy was adopted early on.

Ken Sheldon coached the club to two finals series (1991 & 92) after playing with the club. This was our first finals appearance in 18 years. We were dudded by the crap final 6 system in 1991. We finished fourth and played Geelong (3rd) in an elimination final and lost by seven points. Melbourne (5th) played Essendon (6th) in the other Elmination Final. The AFL changed the system after that season.

These men all had something to do with the club prior to being appointed as senior coach.

Let's look at the other side of the ledger.

Tim Watson took over from Alves after the 1998 season. He decided that St Kilda were on the verge of a genuine shot at a flag. As a result he drafted "guns" of the calibre of Tony Francis, Damian Monkhorst, Tony Antrobus and Sean Charles to name a few. This failed dismally! We went from premiership contention (top of the ladder 1/2 way into the 1999 season) to wooden spoon inside two years! That's quite a feat. Tim was a great footballer and seemed to be a nice guy. He had no affinity with the Saints other than being a part of a team that constantly belted us every time we played them. He had no understanding of what made the Saints unique in the football world and certainly no clue as to how to get the best out of the group of players he had.

Malcolm Blight was another that had no respect for St Kilda. He was quoted as saying that St Kilda "deserve what they get" after sacking Alves. It's amazing what $1M can do to a person's conscience. On the back of getting Blight, St Kilda was able to recruit Hamill, Gehrig and Brett Voss. Blight decided that the Wakelin twins were surplus to requirements and off loaded them. They went on to play in three Grand Finals between them with one winning a flag (nice move!).

That brings us to Ross Lyon.

Here is another coach that was "asked" to coach the club. Granted he has served a long apprenticeship but so did Wayne Brittan. Ross, like his other non-St Kilda predecessors decided that a top-up approach would be best. He recruited Michael Gardiner, Matthew Clarke, Steven King, Charlie Gardiner and coaxed Adam Schneider and Sean Dempster from the Swans. To his credit these picks have cost very little and have not come at the expense of young players.

Is Ross the right man? Time will tell. The current board has said that he will get that time.
Is he currently getting the best out of the group? Clearly not.

History has shown us that St Kilda people generally get the best out of the playing group. St Kilda is like no other AFL club. Despite being 135 years old we are a child. We need a specific mix of discipline and love. It takes someone that has lived the club to understand when to apply which method.
The fact that there is not one St Kilda person on the current coaching panel would indicate that we are doomed to repeat the history of former outside coaches. The positive is that the mix can change but the stability of the senior coach can remain.

(sorry for the length...and thanks for reading!)

[dcstkfc]

interesting perspective. don't mind it although itr could be a bit over-simplistic.

[Sobraz]

Ross has lost me... Hearing him speak at pressers and training etc during the week often make me think he knows what he is on about, but game day it all goes down the drain...

I am now over him and our passionless style..

Aussie Jones should be our coach... I am serious about this... I know motivation at the top level was an issue for him, but he is an intelligent, successful st.Kilda man... He is an astute judge of football tactics and players (from what he has shown in the media) and loves the game at a base, passionate level...

Left field maybe, but he is the man for the job..

[plugger66]

i am pretty sure if we picked the right coach it wouldnt matter if they had any links to the Saints all. Lets look at our last few coaches who have had no envolvement with the saints.

TW we got sucked in with his profile as he had no experience what so ever.
MB didnt want the job but again got excited with his record. As history will record he didnt even go to all the training sessions.
RL didnt apply for the jon but was asked by the panel. Should have least picked someone who wanted it in the first place.
I have no doubt if Malthouse, Matthews or even thompson would do better if they wanted the job and they have no real involvement with the saints bar Malthouse 30 years ago.

[esaint66]

Intresting post, i enjoyed reading it, but might prove to be a bit one sided and like the old split endz song says 'History never repeats' and i honestly believe that things change and can never be identical.

[matrix]

so let me get this straight....
RL did not even apply for the job after we sacked GT?
friggin hell!

what the f**king hell did we employ him as our coach for if he didnt even apply for the job!!

seriously i did not know that.......
god damn, who the hell made that decision ?

[bigcarl]

if it does become apparent that ross is not the man to take us forward i'd be looking at a st kilda person such as burkey.

someone who can get them playing with a bit of passion. and (hypotheically) if he gets us into the finals three years running, for christ's sake don't sack him.

but that is some time off in the future. ross has a season and a half to prove he is the right man for the job ... the length of his contract.

personally i think it is a mindset thing across the board. the crushing weight of expectation is too much for the playing group and the coaches.

i predict that once we are no longer a mathematical chance to play in the finals the pressure will be off and we'll start playing to our potential.

i noticed that choco williams has ruled out playing finals in 2008 for port after their horrible capitulation against carlton. watch them start winning.

[Iceman234]

Ross has lost me... Hearing him speak at pressers and training etc during the week often make me think he knows what he is on about, but game day it all goes down the drain...

I am now over him and our passionless style..

Aussie Jones should be our coach... I am serious about this... I know motivation at the top level was an issue for him, but he is an intelligent, successful st.Kilda man... He is an astute judge of football tactics and players (from what he has shown in the media) and loves the game at a base, passionate level...

Left field maybe, but he is the man for the job..

There was a thread a few weeks back (can't find it) that asked for left field suggestions and I also threw up Aussie Jones in that one.

At the time though I wasn't calling for a new coach, just making my suggestion on a left field nomination.

[iwantmeseats]

It just gets worse and worse dunnit matrix? I believe the committee appointed to find a coach asked him to apply. Probably beause their unrealistic bulls*** airy fairy indicators said he would be a good coach.

RL was obvioulsy a gun at giving the right answers. Unfortunately, he is not the man for the job and will drive this club out of business unless we get rid of him at the end of the year. I mean, whats the point in going through another year? Its VERY obvious he cant cut the mustard.

[Iceman234]

so let me get this straight....
RL did not even apply for the job after we sacked GT?
friggin hell!

what the f**king hell did we employ him as our coach for if he didnt even apply for the job!!

seriously i did not know that.......
god damn, who the hell made that decision ?

I'm sure someone will come up with quotes, but pretty much Wallsy, as part of the appointment committee, coaxed RL into putting in for the job.

RL is clearly a fave of Throbbie and I think the story goes RL wasn't quite sure whether he was up to it at the time (again sure I'll be corrected ) but we all know how nepotism works.

Others far more clued up than me will set it straight, but yeah, my take is that RL didn't initially apply.

[Armoooo]

Yeah I remember hearing that somebody came right out of nowhere and became the number one contender when we were searching for a new coach.

I seem to remember John Longmire being one of the favourites and people were assuming that this somebody who came out of nowhere could have been Gary Lyon...

[meher baba]

My understanding is that the club was originally most interested in Creswell - who unfortunately got ruled out when he accused of raping someone - and then in Bond and Longmire, but neither of those two went very well in the wanky selection process.

So this opened the door for Wallsy to push the barrow for his close mate Lyon. And, indeed, Lyon was reluctant because I believe in his heart of hearts he knew that he didn't have the self-confidence, personality or the drive to impose himself on others and force them to bend to his will: which is surely the most important part of a coach's job.

Apparently the selection process managed to avoid discovering this fact: but it did apparently show that Lyon excelled the rest of the field in how he would deal with press conferences.

Which I think tells you everything you ever needed to know about that particular selection process.

If I'd posted something on this forum even on 11 September 2006 suggesting that what the club needed to do was to sack GT and then ask Robert Walls to choose his successor, I would have been accused by all and sundry of being a troll.

But that's exactly what we did.........

[Frankie]

I concur with Sobraz on this one. Having listened to Aussie Jones' special comments during and after the game on 774, he seemed to really be able to pinpoint clearly and concisely where we were going wrong. Furthermore he offered several constructive suggestions for a more attacking style of gameplay, which seemed to be much more in line with how most people on here seem to think we should be playing.

This was both in relation to tactics and individual player performance.

It is always impossible to know exactly what is going on behind closed doors at the club, but it seems to be getting clearer and clearer that if Ross Lyon does have any tactical nous at all, he is seemingly unable to communicate it to the playing group.

I just reckon Aussie knows the game and has the ability to both communicate his ideas, and do so in a more direct and inspiring manner than Lyon. As has been mentioned previously, it could be hard to pull him back to top flight football but IF you were looking for a St Kilda person with the nous he'd be my pick. You could speculate forever though! Probably best to wait a few more weeks before doing anything drastic re personnel.

[matrix]

i knew the wallsy connection and that they are mates, but i didnt realize that RL hadnt considered (or should i say applied) for the job.

so basically wallsy got in his ear, pumped him up and said i think u should go apply for the job?


otherwise i presume that he would still be with the swannies?.

[Iceman234]

i knew the wallsy connection and that they are mates, but i didnt realize that RL hadnt considered (or should i say applied) for the job.

so basically wallsy got in his ear, pumped him up and said i think u should go apply for the job?


otherwise i presume that he would still be with the swannies?.

was that bottom line a would or a should?

[matrix]

i knew the wallsy connection and that they are mates, but i didnt realize that RL hadnt considered (or should i say applied) for the job.

so basically wallsy got in his ear, pumped him up and said i think u should go apply for the job?


otherwise i presume that he would still be with the swannies?.

was that bottom line a would or a should?

opps
typo

[Bernard Shakey]

Why else would Walls tip us every week. Trying to justify his balls up.

Check next Friday's Age, he will tip us. He was one of only 2 to tip us last week (I don't count the Scottish Terrier).

[saintspremiers]

My understanding is that the club was originally most interested in Creswell - who unfortunately got ruled out when he accused of raping someone - and then in Bond and Longmire, but neither of those two went very well in the wanky selection process.

So this opened the door for Wallsy to push the barrow for his close mate Lyon. And, indeed, Lyon was reluctant because I believe in his heart of hearts he knew that he didn't have the self-confidence, personality or the drive to impose himself on others and force them to bend to his will: which is surely the most important part of a coach's job.

Apparently the selection process managed to avoid discovering this fact: but it did apparently show that Lyon excelled the rest of the field in how he would deal with press conferences.

Which I think tells you everything you ever needed to know about that particular selection process.

If I'd posted something on this forum even on 11 September 2006 suggesting that what the club needed to do was to sack GT and then ask Robert Walls to choose his successor, I would have been accused by all and sundry of being a troll.

But that's exactly what we did.........

You are far worse than barks4eva.

What a load of absolute crap.

Have a look in the mirror if you want to see a troll when it comes to paying out on Lyon with complete bulltish.

Do you really think anyone, even those that want Lyon sacked, will buy your "stories"?

They are all the same....borfarkingrin!!!

[meher baba]

My understanding is that the club was originally most interested in Creswell - who unfortunately got ruled out when he accused of raping someone - and then in Bond and Longmire, but neither of those two went very well in the wanky selection process.

So this opened the door for Wallsy to push the barrow for his close mate Lyon. And, indeed, Lyon was reluctant because I believe in his heart of hearts he knew that he didn't have the self-confidence, personality or the drive to impose himself on others and force them to bend to his will: which is surely the most important part of a coach's job.

Apparently the selection process managed to avoid discovering this fact: but it did apparently show that Lyon excelled the rest of the field in how he would deal with press conferences.

Which I think tells you everything you ever needed to know about that particular selection process.

If I'd posted something on this forum even on 11 September 2006 suggesting that what the club needed to do was to sack GT and then ask Robert Walls to choose his successor, I would have been accused by all and sundry of being a troll.

But that's exactly what we did.........

You are far worse than barks4eva.

What a load of absolute crap.

Have a look in the mirror if you want to see a troll when it comes to paying out on Lyon with complete bulltish.

Do you really think anyone, even those that want Lyon sacked, will buy your "stories"?

They are all the same....borfarkingrin!!!

So, if it's crap, what's your version? How did we come to get Lyon as our coach?

[matrix]

My understanding is that the club was originally most interested in Creswell - who unfortunately got ruled out when he accused of raping someone - and then in Bond and Longmire, but neither of those two went very well in the wanky selection process.

So this opened the door for Wallsy to push the barrow for his close mate Lyon. And, indeed, Lyon was reluctant because I believe in his heart of hearts he knew that he didn't have the self-confidence, personality or the drive to impose himself on others and force them to bend to his will: which is surely the most important part of a coach's job.

Apparently the selection process managed to avoid discovering this fact: but it did apparently show that Lyon excelled the rest of the field in how he would deal with press conferences.

Which I think tells you everything you ever needed to know about that particular selection process.

If I'd posted something on this forum even on 11 September 2006 suggesting that what the club needed to do was to sack GT and then ask Robert Walls to choose his successor, I would have been accused by all and sundry of being a troll.

But that's exactly what we did.........

You are far worse than barks4eva.

What a load of absolute crap.

Have a look in the mirror if you want to see a troll when it comes to paying out on Lyon with complete bulltish.

Do you really think anyone, even those that want Lyon sacked, will buy your "stories"?

They are all the same....borfarkingrin!!!

so then...whats YOUR understanding?

[Iceman234]

My understanding is that the club was originally most interested in Creswell - who unfortunately got ruled out when he accused of raping someone - and then in Bond and Longmire, but neither of those two went very well in the wanky selection process.

So this opened the door for Wallsy to push the barrow for his close mate Lyon. And, indeed, Lyon was reluctant because I believe in his heart of hearts he knew that he didn't have the self-confidence, personality or the drive to impose himself on others and force them to bend to his will: which is surely the most important part of a coach's job.

Apparently the selection process managed to avoid discovering this fact: but it did apparently show that Lyon excelled the rest of the field in how he would deal with press conferences.

Which I think tells you everything you ever needed to know about that particular selection process.

If I'd posted something on this forum even on 11 September 2006 suggesting that what the club needed to do was to sack GT and then ask Robert Walls to choose his successor, I would have been accused by all and sundry of being a troll.

But that's exactly what we did.........

You are far worse than barks4eva.

What a load of absolute crap.

Have a look in the mirror if you want to see a troll when it comes to paying out on Lyon with complete bulltish.

Do you really think anyone, even those that want Lyon sacked, will buy your "stories"?

They are all the same....borfarkingrin!!!

I did say someone would quote better than me, so what was the spin put on RL's appointment?

I thought I was somewhere close but obviously not and possibly stand corrected.

So how did RL come to be selected?

[Teflon]

My understanding is that the club was originally most interested in Creswell - who unfortunately got ruled out when he accused of raping someone - and then in Bond and Longmire, but neither of those two went very well in the wanky selection process.

So this opened the door for Wallsy to push the barrow for his close mate Lyon. And, indeed, Lyon was reluctant because I believe in his heart of hearts he knew that he didn't have the self-confidence, personality or the drive to impose himself on others and force them to bend to his will: which is surely the most important part of a coach's job.

Apparently the selection process managed to avoid discovering this fact: but it did apparently show that Lyon excelled the rest of the field in how he would deal with press conferences.

Which I think tells you everything you ever needed to know about that particular selection process.

If I'd posted something on this forum even on 11 September 2006 suggesting that what the club needed to do was to sack GT and then ask Robert Walls to choose his successor, I would have been accused by all and sundry of being a troll.

But that's exactly what we did.........

You are far worse than barks4eva.

What a load of absolute crap.

Have a look in the mirror if you want to see a troll when it comes to paying out on Lyon with complete bulltish.

Do you really think anyone, even those that want Lyon sacked, will buy your "stories"?

They are all the same....borfarkingrin!!!

spot on! 100%

This guy makes it up and passes it off as fact.

And a coaches job is ti "impose himself"on the players and "bend them to his will" f@rk me call in the Germans FFS!!

What about a coach getting the respect of the players(and vice versa) and then working as a team to get the best from them????

That takes time.

And babble works in HR......geezus......

[saintspremiers]

What I was having a dig about was not actually the fact that Throbbie helped appoint his mate Lyon after Cresswell was deleted and Longmire fell short (all facts correctly pointed out by Meher), more so how he always adds in his own spin that is anti-Lyon - ie. the bit about Lyon in his heart not being capable of being a senior coach!

I mean, what the F***!

So Meher - do you really believe Lyon wanted to just be a career assistant coach, with no aspirations of being a senior coach?

Or, do you believe Lyon always wanted to be a senior coach, but not at St Kilda?

[matrix]

yeah...thanks, everyones really cleared this up for me.

cant understand why u guys are saying certain views are full of shite but dont offer up what U obviously seem to know is correct?....


i just think i'll friggin forget it, by the time i get a decent answer the bloke will prob be gone anyway

[Iceman234]

What I was having a dig about was not actually the fact that Throbbie helped appoint his mate Lyon after Cresswell was deleted and Longmire fell short (all facts correctly pointed out by Meher), more so how he always adds in his own spin that is anti-Lyon - ie. the bit about Lyon in his heart not being capable of being a senior coach!

I mean, what the F***!

So Meher - do you really believe Lyon wanted to just be a career assistant coach, with no aspirations of being a senior coach?

Or, do you believe Lyon always wanted to be a senior coach, but not at St Kilda?

Sorry to interject sp.

My take (and it's purely my opinion based on a long career of dealing with people) is that RL would have just been happy with being who he was, where he was.

He just doesn't appear to be a leader of men. Plain and simple, he just doesn't display it in any form AFAIC.

In my job we have a particular boss who has been dragged upward due to nepotism - sad but it happens, he was updrafted in a short space of time.

We describe him as a number 8 bat who has been made captain and bats himself at 4. Not because he deserves to bat there, but because he was made the captain and that's where a captain is expected to bat.

I see RL at the moment, batting himself at 4 but not through his own doing.

I would love to have the chance to speak personally and confidentially with him right now, I think it would be fascinating.