WHo has to go?

[Teflon]

We should never have got rid of Watts. We need another tall option up forward. I remember the VFL game where he kicked 10, he was awesome.

If we had Watts we wouldn't have had to play Milney up forward

good post cause we need another slow, lumbering fwd who opposition can run off and exploit yeah?

[groupie1]

i agree with all on that except, I am an R Clarke apologist, and I don't think C Jones is good enough.

But yeah, C Gardiner, Dempster, L Fisher, Fiora, Blake first to go,.

In fact, I'd argue we hold onto our 4 young enough elite players (Fisher, Baker, Hayes, Goddard) and let anyone else go if the trade is right.

[milney044]

Yes Milney had a shocker with a heap of clangers but geez he's still a good small forward. He was named in the top 7 by many of you last week, sealed the essendon game, won the game against tiges. has had 2 shockers against Brisbane and Port and the rest have been serviceable. Yes thats inconsistent but take a look at any other small forwards statistics, take a look at the whole team.
We were rubbish yesterday except two players, unfortunately when we're playing that bad Schneider and Milne won't be the guys saving us.
I dont know what is up with our team but our forward line structure is NON EXISTANT, IT SUCKS and the midfield delivery isn't much better.

the team is not coming together, we look lazy, disinterested and as if we don't have a bloody clue what to do with or without the footy. Get it back to basics and quick. If the ball's there to be won YOU GO IN AND GET IT instead of waiting for the opposition to make first use. And when you do have it, players without the ball should be LEADING, players with the ball should be running and carrying and looking for the best available option. This option should be HIT ON THE CHEST. Did i see this yesterday? i don't think so.

Oh and when we finally do hit up a target it would be nice if we could actually convert once in a while. We will never even be an outside chance if we can't convert simple shots. Where is the confidence boys?

The end.

[brown-coat]

These player should go.

X.Clarke
R.Clarke
MCqualter
Harvey (retires)
Kosi
Schnieder
Blake
Milne
Ball (get someone faster with better skills is a possibility)
Hamill (oh wait he's gone..finally)
Fiora
Riewoldt (can't kick goals please go to the gold coast and kick some points for them)


In fact delist the everyone at stkilda and dissolve the club.

[Red]

You forgot to get rid of the volunteers and the cheer squad.

[Winmar7Fan]

start making a list of who from any area of the club has to go at seasons end.

these are just names that i think should go, and anyone is able to add or take people off the list:

Players:
Gwilt
McQualter
Raph Clarke
Ferguson
Leigh Fisher
Fiora


all of these players have had their opportunity, they have their one good game and then that is it, they are using up space on our list that can be taken by more kids that will never stop trying (i hope)

Coach:
Ross lyon i will give 1 more year, otherwise we should start looking elsewhere for a coach that suits our list

All of them + Dempster , Charlie Gardiner, Rix

I don't know what to do with Milne he's capable of kicking five and assisting well around the ground but the 4 out of 6 games he does nothing he's a liability.

[To the top]

Symptomatic was Milne with the ball just inside 50, under some pressure but sees the big body of Koschitzke in space 20 metres accross - kicks 10 metres straight to the Footscray player in between himself and Koschitzke - Footscray run out for a goal.

The days of "heroes" are gone, you need a team absolutely consistent accross the park.

Whilst we hang on to the notion that Milne is of value, and Baker is the cure of our problems we are going no-where.

They are slow, small one dimensional players.

It is not who we should get rid of - it is who we should retain and who we should build around.

As most would know, I am critical of certain aspects, from 2004 and running a young team into the ground by mid-season, with long term consequences.

I also pick up on Lyon saying we have debuted 8 players in 3 seasons, and 5 in the last two seasons.

This whilst we have persevered with the likes of Milne and Baker, which accentuates the root cause of the problem.

Yes, the likes of Raymond did not come up but this is an industry risk - and you address that by continuing to turn - including by fully embracing the Rookie List so you can look at even more players.

We can not undo the errors of list management.

What we can do is learn.

And we start by identifying who would be on the park if we got to the last day in September, and what positions they would ideally occupy.

This identifies an immediate problem, because you would ideally have Sam Fisher on a half back flank - plus Hudgden is heading toward the end of his very proficient career.

You look at players playing out of their preferred position, and you put them in their preferred positions which opens the gaps.

So if you identify Riewoldt (100% fit) as a mid-field asset, you open up a key attacking player requirement etc. etc. etc.

If you identify a need for "small" rebounding pace in defence, you look at Montagna (who JB identified as a small defender when drafted) which opens up (further) mid-field requirements.

The first thing you do is put the premium players in their most advantageous areas of the field - so even with R. Clarke you have to give him the advantage of not having to defensively match up on someone bigger and taler - just because he is 189cm and we have so few resources in regards 6 foot 2 or 3 defenders (allowing for Gilbert as our one great hope!).

Lyon has correctly identified the deficiencies, but I think he may have rose coloured glasses on in regards certain areas of player capabilities and capacities and player deployments.

The KPP's of player capabilities, capacities (including viz @ viz opponents) and deployments needs to identify the deficiencies as the fundamental starting point.

I have been there before and done that before, succesfully - the real lesson is that that was a number of years ago, and nothing has changed.

There are no friends, only outcomes and the outcomes produce the fabric of footy clubs.

Because it is photographs of Premiership teams on the wall that dictate the culture of the Club to all who enter that club - including by intimidatijg opponents.

"Holy s***, this is a club which stops at nothing in its pursuit of success, and look at the success they have had!"

[MadSaintFan]

Brown-Coat Luke Ball is one of the few players actually playing with some heart at the minute. If everyone played with his intensity then I think our season would be a different story.

Raph Clarke/Xavier Clarke - both are tradeable/delistable in my opinion. Xavier doesnt have the body for AFL football and Raph isnt an AFL players. 4-5 years in the system tells us both things.

Fiora/McQualter/Rix/C. Gardiner - are all gone at the end of the year. Stop putting your faith in these blokes. All have had multiple years at the club to prove their worth - none of them have. In Gardiners case he hasnt changed from when he was at Geelong. He makes mistakes under presssure. What people must understand is that these blokes dont change and never will.
If Fiora plays 1 more game for StKilda then theyve lost my support until hes delisted.

Riewoldt hands the Captaincy over to Lenny or Ball at the end of the year. Thats just obvious. Nick needs to get his mind and body right before he can concentrate on leadership.
Kossies 2nd half of the year determines his role next year. If its not up to scratch then hes in the trade column. Again, we cannot persist with people purely on potential. He could be 29 and we could still be saying "Geez IF this bloke wasnt so injury prone and IF he could just find his right position etc."
Plays Kossie in the Ruck, Riewoldt on a wing, Allen at FF and try a smaller forward line consisting of - Armitage, Birss, Milne, Shnieder or X, and Ferguson. Birss and Armitage are excellent in the takle and Milne, Scheider and X must provide pressure. We have to stop opposition clubs from rebounding from our Frwd 50 with such ease.

Gram plays midfield from now on - purely for leg speed. Schnieder also because I just think he needs a kick up the ass. Goddard also to play midfield - he was the dominant midfield of his age as a junior and dont tell me hes slow - he cant be much slower than the blokes currently in there.
Howard, Geary, Armitage, Allen play every game for the rest of the year. McEvoy comes in asap. No need to hide these kids anymore - need to find out if they are up to it now.

[Ralphy]

Good post

but kosi isnt a ruckman
kosi is a backman, should be playing CHB.

i would give
howard, miles when fit, chivers, when fit, mcevoy, Minnie, all a go for the rest of the year,

[plugger66]

Howard, Geary, Armitage, Allen play every game for the rest of the year. McEvoy comes in asap. No need to hide these kids anymore - need to find out if they are up to it now.

Yep play them in every game even if they dont touch it and even if their form is poor at the moment for Casey. No play them when they deserve a game and if they are not playing well if put up to the seniors drop them like every poorly performed player should. Some people wanted Ferg for at least 6 games. I hope but doubt he will get 3.

[To the top]

Got interrupted!

KPP's should obviously be KPI's, plus a few typo's but you get the drift.

To have favourite "whipping horses" is one thing, and I have a few on our list, but the prime question is "are we asking these players to perform the tasks set for them, and is the setting of those tasks a fair and reasonable expectation or is it a no-option choice?"

If it is a "no-option" choice, we have a fundamental problem.

The likes of Milne and Baker play in their preferred positions, and the only positions they can occupy - so they have absolutely no excuses.

Those put in "no-option" positions have the right of further opportunity in a "preferred option" position.

There is a difference, therefore there are allowances and there are further opportunities - for some.

[To the top]

When we actually get around to "Who we retain, where and why", we are left with players such as Goddard and Koschitzke.

Yes, Goddard should be in the mid-field.

Yes, Koschitzke should be a forward utility player pushing up the ground as a target option - he lacks recovery on occasions despite endeavour so needs to be an option for delivery, not a defensive player - and he needs support when it comes to defence and defensive actions. Koschitzke is labelled by being a ruckman or a full forward ("hero" stuff again) but he is neither - he is a milti skilled footballer, 197cm who can take "grabs" like the one he took in defence against Footscray - but that does not make him a defender - he is a quality utility player helping out. That is his value. In the last quarter when Schneider shot from 50, Koschitzke was similarly positioned, just off the goal square looking for a goal square contest if the distance was not made - but the ball was kicked onto his head in the middle of the points, he was stopped from moving into a contest, opposed by a blocker and a marker and was not effectively in the contest.

Riewoldt (fit) is an all ground resource.

We have to identify who we want where, and why - including by giving a flexibility we just do not currently have.

That is the challenge which is being overlooked in this debate.

[meher baba]

I am always extremely reluctant to get involved in these "who should we delist at the end of the season" discussions. I hate giving up on players who still look like might become something. I particularly hate doing this when we end up with recycled top up players like S Birss and M Clarke last year (effectively for Alan Murray and Troy Schwarze, both who still had something in them IMO), King, C Gardiner, Schneider and Dempster this year while we let Watts go (a first round draft pick at two clubs who we never gave a proper chance) and rather hastily pushed Voss and Thommo into retirement.

Anyway, as you can probably tell by the above, I'm a minimal change sort of person when it comes to lists. We had a big cleanout last year, with mixed results, and I can't see that there is anything to be gained by another big cleanout this year, particularly given that (1) we wouldn't want to trade any of the players who would be worth something in a trade and (2) the last 6 drafts haven't offered much talent beyond the first round (or even, as was the case in 2004 and 2005, the top 10).

I would reluctantly assume that this is Harvey's last year (although we've all been wrong so many times that I can never be sure). And Gehrig's, of course. I would be encouraging Max to stay on, so - barring career-ending injury for another player - we would have only two voluntary retirements.

I would also definitely ditch Charlie Gardiner. He can't even get a game ahead of Ferguson now, or even as an emergency, which speaks volumes for where he's at.

That's the minimum of three we need to delist. Then what.

In the firing line are Gwilt, Ferguson, Rix, Howard, Raph Clarke and Allen. Quite a few people seem to think Allen is good (personally, I wouldn't recognise him if I passed him on the street), so I guess he stays. The majority view on Raph seems to be that he might still come good, although it is becoming less likely every year.

As regards the other four, it's hard to make a strong case for keeping any of them. But, in the absence of any more 2 trades for 1 draft pick deals for recycled players (and I wouldn't be suggesting any more of these) what are we going to do with the positions we free up? It's unlikely that we'd want to take more than 3 out of the draft, so most people's answer would be, I guess, to promote Attard (a prospect which must send shivers down the spines of all opposing clubs) and Eddy.

In that case, and assuming that King and Gardi are fit next year and McEvoy will be ready to play some games in seniors, then you would delist two out of Gwilt, Ferguson, Rix and Howard. My choices would be Rix and Ferguson, both of whom have had a reasonable run in the seniors without ever looking like they would go places. I know that Gwilt is not everyone's cup of tea, but he has looked better for mine. Howard has hardly been sighted.

But it's only useful keeping the Gwilts on, and recruiting the Howards, Allens, McEvoys, Stevens and Connorses if they are going to be given a run in the seniors, rather than having endlessly to wait their turns behind the Dempsters, Clinton Joneses, Birrsses, Bakers, Blakes, Schneiders and other rather unexciting players who predominate in our senior list under Lyon.

[borderbarry]

I agree with Meher except I would also delist Fiora, and have a close look at Howard who does not appear to have improved much in two seasons. By moving on five, we can promote two rookies and have our mandatory three draft picks. As for trading, I would only trade for higher draft picks. No more other clubs "has beens". We have had far too many over the years.

[jonesy]

A lot should go,unfortunatly we have to be realistic with the delistings. be nice if we could trade the duds but we're not going to get anything

I'd give them the license to trade anything and everything at the moment. Some will say it destroys the soul of a footy club when you trade players,but tell me what soul has this team got at the moment??! Half of them play without any spirit at all,it's all about the $$ each week.


We desperatly need to inject some pace and foot skills into the side. I don't care about key position players at the moment,they're almost becoming void in the new basketball style of play,so we need to trade for as much midfield talent as we can get ,because at the moment we have no midfield depth whatsoever.

[Zippy]

My thoughts on a couple of players:

Leigh Fisher: He used to be a top-tier small backman, and he used to have very good disposal. He's another player that's gone backwards under Lyon - maybe we should stop using him to tag in the midfield, and try to keep him in the back half.

Jason Gram: finding form in the last couple of weeks, but still strikes me as more of a wingman than a defender.

Stephen Milne: Geez, they turn, don't they . . . he's one of the best small forwards going around. Short guys who can produce a couple of goals a game aren't that easy to find. And remember all forwards, and especially small forwards, thrive on opportunities, and he hasn't been getting that many of those lately.

Jason Blake: has limits, but is very versatile. The problem is that we can't really play him as well as dempster as well as several tagging midfielders - we're left without enough people with good footskills. There's a team balance issue there, rather than an individual issue.

Gwilt/Ferguson/Rix: don't forget, we need depth players too. With our injury management, at least . . .

[Saints Premiers 2008]

We should never have got rid of Watts. We need another tall option up forward. I remember the VFL game where he kicked 10, he was awesome.

If we had Watts we wouldn't have had to play Milney up forward

yep...a vfl game

actually it was a sanfl game

big game player that one

[To the top]

SaintsPremiers 2008, I would not be discounting SANFL form.

The yawning gulf betwen the standard of that competition and the VFL has again been highlighted in the last 2 weeks.

This is an advantage Adelaide and Port Adelaide have in getting experience into their drafted players.

They are educated in a far tougher, far more demanding and far superior local league.

So the gap betwen the secondary league in SA and the AFL is not so great as it is in Victoria.

And therein lies a problem.

Adelaide, and to a lesser degree Port Adelaide, have a couple of sensational young prospects plying their trade at SANFL clubs and dominating, taking absolute "hangers", genuinely hanging in the air and potting big, big bags of goals.

That is scary for the competition and something St Kilda needs to address.

Because Adelaide will let a couple of these youngsters into the system at some stage and the rest of the competition will be saying "Where the hell did he come from?"

We do not have anyone like that, even from a weaker subsidiary competition.

[matrix]

fergus watts...gimmie a break!
kicks 10 goals once and then did NOTHING in the sanfl ffs.

didnt he come to us because of a relative or something?...cant remember.


on john barker.
who is he chummy chums with at the club?
because he did SFA as a player (either injury prone or just couldnt get a game)

Fitzroy
1994....10 games, 68 disposals, 11 tackles and 23 marks with no goals
1995....16 games, 251 disposals, 20 tackles, and kicked 3 goals 3 points
1996....21 games, 295 disposals, 33 tackles and kicked 9 goals 4 points

Brisbane
1997....8 games, 71 disposals, 7 tackles and kicked 1 goal 3 points

Hawthorn
1998....16 games, 167 disposals, 21 tackles and kicked 4 goals 5 points
1999....6 games, 44 disposals and 1 tackle
2000....23 games, 251 disposals, 29 tackles and kicked 33 goals 12 points
2001....22 games, 292 disposals, 27 tackles and kicked 47 goals 24 points
2002....15 games, 110 disposals, 21 tackles and kicked 9 goals 4 points
2003....8 games, 90 disposals, 6 tackles and kicked 6 goals
2004....10 games, 93 disposals, 10 tackles and kicked 3 goals 4 points
2005....6 games, 66 disposals, 2 tackles and kicked 6 goals 1 point
2006....7 games, 44 disposals, 7 tackles and kicked 6 goals 3 points

so we hired a forward 'coach' that in 168 games kicked 127 goals 63 points and who kicked a huge bagful of 5 goals only twice.


maybe we should ask who hired him and why....because they need to give us an explanation

[Saints Premiers 2008]

trade l fish and blake

delist howard, rix, van reehan, fiora

[Otiman]

Gwilt
McQualter
Raph Clarke
Ferguson
Leigh Fisher
Fiora

Agree on most. Keep Raph, needs to get his head right. Mini still needs a chance to prove himself, plus he is rookie listed.

Rix, Harvey, Maguire, Gehrig to go as well.

That's a huge turnaround. 8 players in fact.

ND 1st round
ND 2nd round
ND 3rd round
ND 4th round

Rookie Elevations
Attard (perhaps his negative style of play does not suit where we are aiming for)
Van Rheenen (or redraft onto rookie list)
Eddy (needs to play some games this year)
Miles (looking like the best of our current crop of rookies)

Rookie Retained
Chivers
Haretuku

Rookie Delisted
McQualter (if he doesn't cut it in 2nd half of this year)

Then we get a shot at another 5 rookies, as well as 4 kids in the national draft.

[Ralphy]

Ferguson
dont agree, i think keep him

[maverick]

trade l fish and blake

delist howard, rix, van reehan, fiora

Who are we trading them to?
No-ones going to take the fish that Bi Lo reject....

[Dan Warna]

I can't believe anyone would list luke ball as someone we should get rid off.

in a team that seems to be filled with soft front running types, why get rid of possibly the best tackler in the competition?

should actually make him the midfield coach, he certainly knows more about hardness at the ball than anyone else at the club with the exception of burke, harvey and hayes.

looking at our coaching staff, ball is already harder at the ball than rock and lyon ever were, and his skills are superior to both of them.

lyon was a rubbish player rubbish sides and rock basically kicked it in the direction of carey and looked forward to the party after the game.

[desertsaint]

I would simply get rid of the coach and bring in someone who can read player's abilities and have them play to a simple attacking plan, a coach they'll respect and play for.
Anyone who's ever played sport should see the problem isn't ability -it's confidence and motivation and playing for each other. coaches that can instill this create winning teams - those that can't should not be coaching at senior level!
If people really believe we could somehow get replacements that ross somehow gets to play at a higher level than this current group is capable of, well i know someone with access to a few million in a nigerian bank account...