Was GT right about ruckman?

[supersaints]

This should fire the old GT brigade up..........


Gerard Healy
Friday, May 30, 2008 at 10:50am


RUCKWORK is dying. When rovers were given armchair rides by legends John Nicholls and Polly Farmer in the 1960s and ‘70s, the craft of ruckwork was celebrated.

And ruckmen were rightly lauded as lions who ruled the football jungle.

But research shows that in today’s football, despite what we are continually told, it is a very different story.

For many reasons, including defensive strategies of coaches at stoppages, the effectiveness of ruckwork is more myth than reality today.

FACT

Let’s start by looking at some facts and the most compelling of all is that only 22 per cent of hitouts go to advantage across the competition.

ON average only one in five, at most, of the clearances in football can be in any way attributed to ruckmen, according to the AFL’s official stats provider Champion Data.

You can argue the merits of the definition - a successful hitout is classed as one that goes to a teammate who is able to get a possession - but it’s not going to change the fact that this figure - one in five - is almost a knockout blow for those who believe the ruckwork myth.

And that is without even trying to estimate how many “hitouts to advantageâ€

[bobmurray]

Sums up why GT used Blake,he wasn't worried about the actual tap out,he was more concerned with around the ground.Too bad for Blake his skills weren't more polished.

[saintsRrising]

It is a good interesting read.....

But it also reinforces what you already know....

That a ruckman cannot just be there for tap outs alone. We knew that from Knoble for example who piled up the hit outs (mainly ill directed including the infanous hit out striaght to Wanganeen who goaled to put PA in front and the Saints out of the GF) but was usless around the ground.

But equally a ruckman cannot just act as an extra midfielder....he has to as Healey pointed out be able to negate the opposing ruckman.

A ruckman has to contribute in more ways one. Apart from hit outs there is general play, there is bringing into the game your eam mates with good bodywork.

Just like ANY player has to be able to contribute in more ways than one. For example Gram has been exposed of late because his defensive skills are so poor.

Blake could well have beena great sucess in his follower role...but was not because even though he won a lot of ball, his resultant ball use was poor. Cox by contrast uses the ball well.

Was Blake better value than Knoble or Ackland or Rix? Yes he was.
Was he better value than Everitt? No not by a long shot.

would I play him in first ruck in front of King or Gardiner..no I would not. Occasional runs on the ball, yes.

One of my favourite Saints ruckman was Jeff "Pup" Sarau who was not that tall but who was a great mark and who would rack up very high possession tallies. For his time he used the ball well enough.



A good ruckmen is still vital to any team.....but hit outs alone to not make for a good ruckman. Street at the Dogs for example rarely gets a game.

Indeed any player that is a one trick pony will find it hard to keep a place in any team.

PS with Freo it is worth noting that some of their best clearance players are out injured this season and that Bell is getting somewhat long in the tooth.

[saintsRrising]

Sums up why GT used Blake,he wasn't worried about the actual tap out,he was more concerned with around the ground.Too bad for Blake his skills weren't more polished.

Exactly.....if his ball use was more damging it could well have beena different story.

I think we all remember that game against freo in Tassie(probably his best) where he playeda near flawless game and use the ball very well including I think was it 2 goals?

If he could have played similar to tat it would have beena different story.

[tweedaletomanning]

Excellent article....To be able to Ruck is not enough anymore...

[meher baba]

To answer your opening question

Yes, of course GT was right

A ruckman who can get his own ball is far,far more useful than a tap ruckman

[St.Kenny]

Read the article yesterday and I must say I regard Healy as the absolute expert when it comes to tactical analysis in the media. I think he just may know a little more than some with private agendas to push. He rarely makes over the top statements.
Despite the fact that GT more or less echoed the main points of Healys arguments.....but well ahead of his time (Should be his mantra). A tap alone ruckman is a dying breed. The last decent ruckman to come through moorabbin and give sustained serviceable rucking in most areas was Everrit...end of story.
I'd like to know how North pick up an exciting inspiring ruckman like Macintosh so quickly.

[saintsRrising]

The last decent ruckman to come through moorabbin and give sustained serviceable rucking in most areas was Everrit...end of story.

I'd like to know how North pick up an exciting inspiring ruckman like Macintosh so quickly.

So quickly??

McIntosh was taken in the 2002 draft by North with Pick 9 (the Saints traded pick 6 plus another for Brooks).

McIntosh did not however play his first game till 2005 and then it was only the 1 game before playing 17 in 2006 and 25 in 2007.

A lesson here perhaps for those wanting to rush McEvoy??????

[saintsRrising]

Excellent article....To be able to Ruck is not enough anymore...

If you mean hit outs...when has it ever been???


The Swans with a gameplan built around a very high stoppage game plan love a ruckman who wins alot of hit outs.....they are about the only AFL team at present that really gains maximum value out of having a hit out ruckman.



But go back thru history and just how many of the great ruckmen got a game because they were only good at hit outs?????

Everitt..a great palmer of the ball but with exceptional ball and ground skills fora bigman. Fora while was shaping asa permanent forwad prospect.


The Shadow... Carl Ditterich.... basically a huge and FIERCE ruck rover...

Dempsey....his marking was something to behold..

Simon Madden...was also a great marking forward and goal scorer

Thompson from the Pies was brilliant around the ground.


Polly Farmer reivented the game.


Back in the "old days" ruckman were the "enforcers". Captain Blood Jack Dyer etc..

etc..

[Hard at it]

McIntosh was taken in the 2002 draft by North with Pick 9 (the Saints traded pick 6 plus another for Brooks).

We took Brooks for picks 6 & 31, not exactly one of GT's greatest moves. We could have had Salopek or McIntosh for pick 6, both of whom looking to have great careers ahead of them. Brooks on the other hand, less said the better

[saintsRrising]

McIntosh was taken in the 2002 draft by North with Pick 9 (the Saints traded pick 6 plus another for Brooks).

We took Brooks for picks 6 & 31, not exactly one of GT's greatest moves. We could have had Salopek or McIntosh for pick 6, both of whom looking to have great careers ahead of them. Brooks on the other hand, less said the better

But we are told that GT was right about ruckman.....


Trouble is I am not sure which one was he right about????


Was it exiting Everitt out??

Was it getting Knobel??

Was it getting Ackland??

Was it getting Rix??

Was it playing Blake....because to be frank our ruck stocks were dreadful????

We will ignore Capuano as he was part of the pool of players that GT inherited....

[BigMart]

hang on......wasn't jb empowered as the recruiting man.....and he is univerally accepted as a guru for some reason.....

[Hard at it]

hang on......wasn't jb empowered as the recruiting man.....and he is univerally accepted as a guru for some reason.....

When you draft someone that has already had time on another clubs list then that is definitely the coaches call. I'm sure if Schneider and Dempster are complete failures RL will be the one copping the critisisms for that, as he should.

[St.Kenny]

Very very selective quoting SR which really desrves a lambasting for it shows your political bias here. For a guy with as many posts as you i'm not really sure if youre a quick learner. Keep up the anti GTdribble mate as we slide further down the ladder. People of your ilk must ultimately confess to being what many call the 'cancer' of the club.

[Washedup]

Very very selective quoting SR which really desrves a lambasting for it shows your political bias here. For a guy with as many posts as you i'm not really sure if youre a quick learner. Keep up the anti GTdribble mate as we slide further down the ladder. People of your ilk must ultimately confess to being what many call the 'cancer' of the club.

SrR is actually spot on. What has he said that is incorrect?

[hotdish]

McIntosh was taken in the 2002 draft by North with Pick 9 (the Saints traded pick 6 plus another for Brooks).

We took Brooks for picks 6 & 31, not exactly one of GT's greatest moves. We could have had Salopek or McIntosh for pick 6, both of whom looking to have great careers ahead of them. Brooks on the other hand, less said the better

But we are told that GT was right about ruckman.....


Trouble is I am not sure which one was he right about????


Was it exiting Everitt out??

Was it getting Knobel??

Was it getting Ackland??

Was it getting Rix??

Was it playing Blake....because to be frank our ruck stocks were dreadful????

We will ignore Capuano as he was part of the pool of players that GT inherited....

Brooks didn't meet our expectations, but he did his knee, and was never the same.

Knobel and Ackland we gave opportunities to when no other clubs would play them - how did they pay us back? by holding us to ransom and requesting 3 year deals on 200k+ a year...who wouldn't let t hem go...

Everitt had a piss poor attitude, wouldn't play a team game and was told to go - we got a good trade for him so I don't know why you are complaining about GT exiting all these players out...

[saintsRrising]

Very very selective quoting SR which really desrves a lambasting for it shows your political bias here. For a guy with as many posts as you i'm not really sure if youre a quick learner. Keep up the anti GTdribble mate as we slide further down the ladder. People of your ilk must ultimately confess to being what many call the 'cancer' of the club.

Where are the selective quotes????


I just find it very amusing that GT was supposedly ahead of his time for playing Blake as a small but very mobile ruckman when he was the same coach that secured Knobel who was very much the opposite. Now there is true selective quoting.



Interesting that you have given up on the Saints.

Personally I think they will turn it around.

As I mentioned BEFORE GT left he was destroying our list...and this damage is yet to be undone. I have not seen anything since he departed to change my view that GT had stuffed up what had once been a very good list.

[Bowey Boy]

Was GT right about ruckman?

No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[perfectionist]

Thomas was right about ruckmen (not ruckman) who are no good. He was wrong about ruckmen in general - as every premiership team can demonstrate.

Certainly the requirements of ruckmen have changed with the pace of the game. Not only does he have to be 200cm tall, but he has to have the agility of someone who is 190cm tall and the pace of someone who is 180cm tall. This is not a natural state of affairs and if you spot someone who fits these dimensions, they look quite odd (eg Hamish Macintosh).

Gardiner most fits the bill and in tandem with King might fill the role. If only we had had one ruckman of ability in 1997, 9 or 10.

[St.Kenny]

To quote GT directly on SEN. "It is myth promoted by many at St.Kilda with agendas that I dont rate ruckman. I have only said the ruckman who believed all his job entailed was contesting the centre square and little else is not what i'm after".
Turn that around any way you like...........you have the great fortune to be irrelevent in the grander scheme of things.
Everrit was the only ruckman who did more than that. Piss poor attitude and wanted to leave.....do some figuring on that.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

If we take Thomas at what he actually used to talk about, and not the mythical "didn't rate ruckman", he wasn't really that far out of step with other thinkers in the game... which is why the Saints worked at "(or "wasted picks on" depending on your perspective) gaining ruckmen so diligently.

I still think if Knobel hadn't gotten ahead of himself he might have amounted to something tapping down to the St Kilda mids. He could mark, and occasionally kick... he ran like a knee injury waiting to happen, and eventually...

Ackland had one good year, one bad year, and went off and caught a case of the Blues. Headcase.

Unfortunately, GT and rucks will always go down as a dysfunctional relationship, because he never had a real chance to build his stoppages around the guys he wanted to: Justin Koschitzke. I heard Thomas many times talking on radio about how he thought the Satins had one of the best ruckmen in the comp out injured...

I agree with Healy, rucks are a very important part of the modern game. First for their work around the ground, then for their clearance work, and only then for hitouts.

[Teflon]

I'd like to know how North pick up an exciting inspiring ruckman like Macintosh so quickly.

LMFAO - You silly little flog Ken...you know squat...dissapear back under your rock you leech.

How did Nth get Macintosh so quickly......

How funnys that...

[saintsRrising]

If we take Thomas at what he actually used to talk about, and not the mythical "didn't rate ruckman", he wasn't really that far out of step with other thinkers in the game... which is why the Saints worked at "(or "wasted picks on" depending on your perspective) gaining ruckmen so diligently..

I think that GT rated ruckmen....but that he was also very bad at judging who could be a good ruckman.

Unfortunately, GT and rucks will always go down as a dysfunctional relationship, because he never had a real chance to build his stoppages around the guys he wanted to: Justin Koschitzke. I heard Thomas many times talking on radio about how he thought the Satins had one of the best ruckmen in the comp out injured....

Kosi is a case in point...he is clueless in ruckwork....and as Healy says in his article if you can't ruck then you need to be able to negate the opposition ruckman. Kosi cannot do this.....and he can't ruck either.

Either he has little abilty in this area...or he was not uaught properly. Either way he should not contest the ruck except as an occassional relief.

I agree with Healy, rucks are a very important part of the modern game. First for their work around the ground, then for their clearance work, and only then for hitouts.

Has it ever been different?

Only difference previously was that the ruckman were more there to take contested marks around the ground.

Today they are more there to find space and act as link men.

[JeffDunne]

Jesus, don't you people ever get sick of being so hate-focused?

sRr & Teffers, you are putting b4e to shame.

I think that GT rated ruckmen. . .

If you believe that then why spend so much time pushing the opposite line? When B4E was at his cut&paste best, you were his biggest cheerleader (except when Teffers removed his head from Andrew's arse).

Fact is, we put a lot of draft stock in two young ruckman who at the time were both seen as potential A grade ruckman. Injury and other factors meant they didn't work out but only an ignoramous would say we didn't try (and then by extension someone didn't rate ruckman).

You use a #2 & #6 pick on ruckman and you don't rate them?

Only f/wits like Robert Walls and Patrick Smith would try and push that line.

[St. Luke]

FACT

Let’s start by looking at some facts and the most compelling of all is that only 22 per cent of hitouts go to advantage across the competition.

Yep, I've seen plenty good ruckmen tap it into an opponents hands time after time. I've also seen some crappy bounces where as good as the ruckman is, the advantage is always lop-sided. That said, I'd sooner have a ruckman who gave us some advantage, rather than none at all