At end of 2006..a pretty good damn list or???

[saintsRrising]

I have read repeatedly about Ross Lyon having been given a pretty good damn list...a premiership team for the taking etc etc.


But really how good was the list that he was given?

I thought that I would go back and revisit the list as it was at the end of 2006.....as it was before Ross arrived.


Dal Santo Potential Top 10 in the AFL player who unfortunately had little defensive side to his game.
Blake GOP with a brilliant workrate, fantastic endurance and leap but with poor decision making and ordinary skills.
Ackland Poor ruckman
Rix Poor ruckman
McGough Dud. Could win ball but with dreadful skills and very slow.
Maguire Capable to good CHB. has aggression that others lack.
McQualter Struggling young player. Had had a poor year averaging 11 disposals and never more than 16. was hardly an emerging mid.
Gwilt Very raw player who had done very little.
Raymond Terrible player. You wonder why he was ever drafted.
Harvey Still a star, but no the superstar that he was.
Sweeney Dud
Schawrze Not good enough
Milne Good
Peckett Past it
Hamill Past it due to an injury ravaged body.
X Clarke OK. Very good in flashes, but does ot win enough ball often enoughto be a star.
R Clarke Not delivering. Has bben injury prone and while has some talent also has many flaws.
Thompson Past it
Watts Not good enough. Big slow marking forward recruited when that species was being outmoded
L Fisher GOP
Hayes Star in his prime
Hudghton Star in last years
Gehrig Star with 1 year left
Baker Very good tagger when rules were to be tightened.
Montagna Promising mid
Powell Past it
Goddard Very promising defender
Gilbert Raw with promise
Murray Dud
Ferguson Injury prone
Fiora Highly skilled but with poor workrate
Koschitze Great first year for a recruit, but apart from that only had a stellar 5 games in 60 odd games. touted asa star but really is just good to average player.
Brooks Had talent, but no heart.
S Fisher Great player on the rise...
Riewoldt Genuine star
Voss The type of player any coach loves to have. But unfortunately past his best.
Ball Injury cruelled player who would be a star if he was not injury resricted.
Gram Had just hada a stellar year. Has great pace and run, but no defensive skills. Is a booming kick but accuracy is below average. Opposition coaches about to exploit his weaknesses.
Powell Past it.
Goddard Was just starting to bloom asa very good defender...and possibly star quality

ROOKIES
Pfitzner Dud
McDonnell Dud
Core Dud


So yes Lyon was given a list much better than many if not most rookie coaches get given.

But it was a list in decline, and a list no where near as full as talent as many would have you believe from reading posts on this forum this week.

Also importantly it was a list that had very little emerging young talent and many players who had stagnated. The pool of potential future talent made even worse by havinga poor group of rookies.

It was a list that needed to be improved, culled and added to if September success was to be achieved.

It was not a list to just "coach" to a flag.


The cold hard reality was that the Saints were at our optimum to win a flag in 2004 and 2005...but by the end of 2006 the playing list was in decline with little young emerging talent.

The list was by no means poor....but it was along way short of the "glowing" reports of some.

Compare it if you will to any of the last 3 Premiership Teams.

[Shaggy]

Sr you just got it so wrong in 2006.

As I have said before performance and relationships come before process and control.

I just don't think you understand it.

[brown-coat]

The 2006 list was clearly on the slide.

Ross Lyon inherited it, then made some modifications that weren't suffcient and is paying the price for it.


Combined with his miserable persona and uninspiring leadership (has anyone actually seen him yell?) and you have a wayward team who are turning up for their paycheck.

The perfect recipe to finish last and get a number 1 draft pick? Perhaps.

[plugger66]

I have read repeatedly about Ross Lyon having been given a pretty good damn list...a premiership team for the taking etc etc.


But really how good was the list that he was given?

I thought that I would go back and revisit the list as it was at the end of 2006.....as it was before Ross arrived.


Dal Santo Potential Top 10 in the AFL player who unfortunately had little defensive side to his game.
Blake GOP with a brilliant workrate, fantastic endurance and leap but with poor decision making and ordinary skills.
Ackland Poor ruckman
Rix Poor ruckman
McGough Dud. Could win ball but with dreadful skills and very slow.
Maguire Capable to good CHB. has aggression that others lack.
McQualter Struggling young player. Had had a poor year averaging 11 disposals and never more than 16. was hardly an emerging mid.
Gwilt Very raw player who had done very little.
Raymond Terrible player. You wonder why he was ever drafted.
Harvey Still a star, but no the superstar that he was.
Sweeney Dud
Schawrze Not good enough
Milne Good
Peckett Past it
Hamill Past it due to an injury ravaged body.
X Clarke OK. Very good in flashes, but does ot win enough ball often enoughto be a star.
R Clarke Not delivering. Has bben injury prone and while has some talent also has many flaws.
Thompson Past it
Watts Not good enough. Big slow marking forward recruited when that species was being outmoded
L Fisher GOP
Hayes Star in his prime
Hudghton Star in last years
Gehrig Star with 1 year left
Baker Very good tagger when rules were to be tightened.
Montagna Promising mid
Powell Past it
Goddard Very promising defender
Gilbert Raw with promise
Murray Dud
Ferguson Injury prone
Fiora Highly skilled but with poor workrate
Koschitze Great first year for a recruit, but apart from that only had a stellar 5 games in 60 odd games. touted asa star but really is just good to average player.
Brooks Had talent, but no heart.
S Fisher Great player on the rise...
Riewoldt Genuine star
Voss The type of player any coach loves to have. But unfortunately past his best.
Ball Injury cruelled player who would be a star if he was not injury resricted.
Gram Had just hada a stellar year. Has great pace and run, but no defensive skills. Is a booming kick but accuracy is below average. Opposition coaches about to exploit his weaknesses.
Powell Past it.
Goddard Was just starting to bloom asa very good defender...and possibly star quality

ROOKIES
Pfitzner Dud
McDonnell Dud
Core Dud


So yes Lyon was given a list much better than many if not most rookie coaches get given.

But it was a list in decline, and a list no where near as full as talent as many would have you believe from reading posts on this forum this week.

Also importantly it was a list that had very little emerging young talent and many players who had stagnated. The pool of potential future talent made even worse by havinga poor group of rookies.

It was a list that needed to be improved, culled and added to if September success was to be achieved.

It was not a list to just "coach" to a flag.


The cold hard reality was that the Saints were at our optimum to win a flag in 2004 and 2005...but by the end of 2006 the playing list was in decline with little young emerging talent.

The list was by no means poor....but it was along way short of the "glowing" reports of some.

Compare it if you will to any of the last 3 Premiership Teams.

How many of these posts are you going to do to try and prove that RL can coach and it is GT's fault still 2 years down the track. It is easy to write on some players 2 years after the event but I bet most people werent as negative about the list at the end of 2006. 21-22 year olds should continue to improve and they havent. You can blame Gt for that but he had nothing to do with them for 2 years

[saintsRrising]

Sr you just got it so wrong in 2006.

.

Ok...so which players do you rate differently?

[vacuous space]

But really how good was the list that [Ross Lyon] was given?

Good enough for 14 wins with a dud coach. It can't have been that awful.

[Pwoit]

Powell a bit stiff to get bagged twice

But your praise of BJ twice is encouragingg

[Buckets]

But then if we can see that and you and others claim that you saw the list the same way back then, why in the world did Lyon do the right thing and try draft and trade for the long haul instead of the short term options of topping up with recycled players?
Does this then mean that Lyon is no better than GT in the fact that he has yet to really pick the right guys for thelong term future of the St Kilda football club?

[saintsRrising]

. It is easy to write on some players 2 years after the event but I bet most people werent as negative about the list at the end of 2006. 21-22 year olds should continue to improve and they havent. You can blame Gt for that but he had nothing to do with them for 2 years

Trouble is with your theory Plugger was that I was writing ratings like that back in 2006. Perhaps it is more that you overated the list.

Hamill was still an unknown, but the Hamill 2 weeks saying was worn thin, X I would have been hopeful about, Kosi unlike many I never rated as a ruckmen...and one may have thought that Voss would hang on a bit long...but apart from that it is essentially what I was writing back then..


Whether RL can coach or not is sepearte matter. However most Saint fans overate the list he was given.

At present my view of RL is that I think he is underperforming.

[plugger66]

But really how good was the list that [Ross Lyon] was given?

Good enough for 14 wins with a dud coach. It can't have been that awful.

Great answer. Explain that. Also we had as many injuries as last year and 3 times the amount of this year, And did you really think thay about Dal, Kosi, X and Gammy at the end of 2006 ot that after 2 years of going backward. Remember these guys were 21-22 then and still should be improving now.

[saintsRrising]

But really how good was the list that [Ross Lyon] was given?

Good enough for 14 wins with a dud coach. It can't have been that awful.

Actually what I was posting late in 2006 post-Bonnie Doon that GT's match day coaching was very good. I was very critical of his list management though.

Pre-Bonnie doon I was not so happy about his match day coaching.

On the list...I have not said that it was awful...but it was not the best list in the competion by the end of 2006.

[Shaggy]

Sr you just got it so wrong in 2006.

.

Ok...so which players do you rate differently?

We currently have 28 players on our list who have played finals footy.

19 are now entering or in their prime ... that is more than enough.

The oldies are still doing well relatively ... Banger, Max, Lenny, Milne, Blake, G-Train, MG, King & Bakes.

The mismanagement with our core group is unbelievable IMO.

I agree with GT that we are set up to win one or two premierships with the core group between 2008 and 2011 subject to the oldies who as a group have not let us down.

Rate the players how you want but they are nearly all under achieving.

[saintsRrising]

The mismanagement with our core group is unbelievable IMO.

.

I was talking about end of 2006....but yes in the here and now I would not disagree that all is not well.

Just because I am not regularly bagging Lyon does not mean that I am in agreeance with all that is occurring at present.

For example earlier in the year I made a detailed post on how I would structure the team...which was quite different from Lyon's approach.

Lyon needs to improve.

[bobmurray]

I could never understand why people used to continually trot out the best list line over the last couple of seasons...It's always been flawed,it's just that now it's beyond flawed.....

[saintsRrising]

, And did you really think thay about Dal, Kosi, X and Gammy at the end of 2006 ot that after 2 years of going backward. Remember these guys were 21-22 then and still should be improving now.

The OP is obviously written now in 2008 and so yes knowledge gained since 2006 goes into it.....but yes my thoughts were in the main similar back then.. Like any Saints fan though I would have had some rose colored hopes for many of our players.

However yes I thought then that Dal was a potential top 10 player of the AFL. Still do.

Kosi...I have never rated as a ruckman. He is clueless about where to position his body, how to tap etc and always has been. That is what I was posting then. That he was a stunning mark on the move had many overate him as a ruckman. In 2006 I was hoping that he would have solid year in 2007. I saw him asa key forward and wondered WTF we traded for Watts when we had Kosi who was clearlya superior option to Watts.

X was bloody exciting at first...but has always been up and down. love watching him play.

Gram as I mentioned above in 2006 I would have hoping would go on with his 2006 form.

I posted this pre-Lyon (part of an old post of mine that I saw on WOM not long back).

Talking Windows I think we have seen the first window of a premiership for the Saints has closed . . . i.e. the one that would have been led by our older core of players. Peckett, Powell and Aussie are now gone . . .

Our older guard players that are now remaining will be support players rather than the core that we win with.

However our second window of opportunity is fortunately already opening for us . . . and if a lot goes right it may even snag us a flag in 2007 which would be great for Banger.

Our current list has the raw talent required to win a flag . . . but only if a number of players improve. ie any or all of:
• Brooks and Rix in the ruck. That this two develop into a reasonable ruck duo . . . and by that I mean have the ability to palm the ball to the advantage of our midfielders.
• Hamill actually playing
• The Clarke's finding fitness and Raph learning to dish the ball off to adavantage.
• Fiora playing good football week, in week out.
• McQualter stepping up to earn a regular spot in the midfield rotation.
• Kosi having a solid year.
• Gilbert ripening a year earlier than expected to give us that extra tall backman option in 2007.
• Rix to improve as ruck or key defensive back. There were good signs in 2006 and remember that he is 25 and that players of his height often bloom late ( ie Troy Simmonds turned 28 this year and had arguably his best year ever).
• That Joey and Gram conitinue on with the years that they had this year . . . and indeed that Gram morphs into a midfielder.
• That Roo learns how to kick straight at goal (. . . and one hopes to hear that a secret new football boot is about to be launched onto the world market that improves accuracy and power in kicking).
• That GTrain has a consistently good year.
• That Milne is returned to the forward pocket and plays like we know he can . . . and that he learns how to stick a tackle.
• That Hayes and Maguire as a minimum are fully fit and firing by mid-way thru 2007.
• That Ball's Op allows him much greater freedom and ability to kick than he had in 2006.
• . . . and maybe just maybe McG being harnessed to make effective use of his ball winning ability (though I am willing to skip this one).

However that is a lot of if's . . . we do not need all of them but yes, you would need most of them.


Do I think that RL is currently doing enough to open our window? = no I do not.

Do I think the list given to RL was as good as many thought it was? = No I do not.

I saw it then as a good list but with many flaws and going backwards which needed to be turned around.

I saw it as a final 8 team...BUT did not see it as a premiership team unless substantial improvement was achieved.

[vacuous space]

Actually what I was posting late in 2006 post-Bonnie Doon that GT's match day coaching was very good. I was very critical of his list management though.

But our list was good enough to win 14 games. Obviously something was working. Many people thought we should have won more, finished top-4 and challenged for the flag. Our list was fine.

[saintsRrising]

. Our list was fine.

....but in decline....and past its best....and requiring work to become again a true contender.

IMO of course.

[Shaggy]

The mismanagement with our core group is unbelievable IMO.

.

I was talking about end of 2006....but yes in the here and now I would not disagree that all is not well.

Just because I am not regularly bagging Lyon does not mean that I am in agreeance with all that is occurring at present.

For example earlier in the year I made a detailed post on how I would structure the team...which was quite different from Lyon's approach.

Lyon needs to improve.

But you love to miss the big picture and focus on a bit of the pie.

I really think RB/Board had the same thought process as you at the time GT was sacked plus some personal grief to get rid of him.

Whilst I recognise you are great for SS I think you are the culture the club needs to get rid of (not as a supporter but as a decision maker or influencer).

[saintsRrising]

The mismanagement with our core group is unbelievable IMO.

.

I was talking about end of 2006....but yes in the here and now I would not disagree that all is not well.

Just because I am not regularly bagging Lyon does not mean that I am in agreeance with all that is occurring at present.

For example earlier in the year I made a detailed post on how I would structure the team...which was quite different from Lyon's approach.

Lyon needs to improve.

But you love to miss the big picture and focus on a bit of the pie.

I really think RB/Board had the same thought process as you at the time GT was sacked plus some personal grief to get rid of him.

Whilst I recognise you are great for SS I think you are the culture the club needs to get rid of (not as a supporter but as a decision maker or influencer).

LOL..well that is amusing.....I will have to tell that one to my mates RB and GW Damn them spilling the beans about being my lackey's...


If you want a big picture consider this...if RB had hired a coach rather than given the job to a then mate...we would have had the Premiership Cup that we all long for. From small corruptions bigger ones grow.


GT was a good motivator....but a lousy builder.

[kalsaint]

I have read repeatedly about Ross Lyon having been given a pretty good damn list...a premiership team for the taking etc etc.


But really how good was the list that he was given?

I thought that I would go back and revisit the list as it was at the end of 2006.....as it was before Ross arrived.


Dal Santo Potential Top 10 in the AFL player who unfortunately had little defensive side to his game.
Blake GOP with a brilliant workrate, fantastic endurance and leap but with poor decision making and ordinary skills.
Ackland Poor ruckman
Rix Poor ruckman
McGough Dud. Could win ball but with dreadful skills and very slow.
Maguire Capable to good CHB. has aggression that others lack.
McQualter Struggling young player. Had had a poor year averaging 11 disposals and never more than 16. was hardly an emerging mid.
Gwilt Very raw player who had done very little.
Raymond Terrible player. You wonder why he was ever drafted.
Harvey Still a star, but no the superstar that he was.
Sweeney Dud
Schawrze Not good enough
Milne Good
Peckett Past it
Hamill Past it due to an injury ravaged body.
X Clarke OK. Very good in flashes, but does ot win enough ball often enoughto be a star.
R Clarke Not delivering. Has bben injury prone and while has some talent also has many flaws.
Thompson Past it
Watts Not good enough. Big slow marking forward recruited when that species was being outmoded
L Fisher GOP
Hayes Star in his prime
Hudghton Star in last years
Gehrig Star with 1 year left
Baker Very good tagger when rules were to be tightened.
Montagna Promising mid
Powell Past it
Goddard Very promising defender
Gilbert Raw with promise
Murray Dud
Ferguson Injury prone
Fiora Highly skilled but with poor workrate
Koschitze Great first year for a recruit, but apart from that only had a stellar 5 games in 60 odd games. touted asa star but really is just good to average player.
Brooks Had talent, but no heart.
S Fisher Great player on the rise...
Riewoldt Genuine star
Voss The type of player any coach loves to have. But unfortunately past his best.
Ball Injury cruelled player who would be a star if he was not injury resricted.
Gram Had just hada a stellar year. Has great pace and run, but no defensive skills. Is a booming kick but accuracy is below average. Opposition coaches about to exploit his weaknesses.
Powell Past it.
Goddard Was just starting to bloom asa very good defender...and possibly star quality

ROOKIES
Pfitzner Dud
McDonnell Dud
Core Dud


So yes Lyon was given a list much better than many if not most rookie coaches get given.

But it was a list in decline, and a list no where near as full as talent as many would have you believe from reading posts on this forum this week.

Also importantly it was a list that had very little emerging young talent and many players who had stagnated. The pool of potential future talent made even worse by havinga poor group of rookies.

It was a list that needed to be improved, culled and added to if September success was to be achieved.

It was not a list to just "coach" to a flag.


The cold hard reality was that the Saints were at our optimum to win a flag in 2004 and 2005...but by the end of 2006 the playing list was in decline with little young emerging talent.

The list was by no means poor....but it was along way short of the "glowing" reports of some.

Compare it if you will to any of the last 3 Premiership Teams.

For what its worth, this list isnt that flash (given the commentary).

The same champions are there, the passengers have changed to some extent but overall this list was never going to cut in in 2007 and didnt.

Now in 2008 add no heart to those excluding those isolated from Ross's recent comment and you have poorer performance than 2007.

Not much to look forward to without a change in team play IMO to create some spark.

I SAY BRING IN MORE YOUTH FOR INCREASED EXUBERANCE.

[bigcarl]

actually looking at it again the 2006 list wasn't all that flash.

makes one marvel a what gt was able to achieve with it.

[RH35]

But really how good was the list that [Ross Lyon] was given?

Good enough for 14 wins with a dud coach. It can't have been that awful.

Great answer. Explain that. Also we had as many injuries as last year and 3 times the amount of this year, And did you really think thay about Dal, Kosi, X and Gammy at the end of 2006 ot that after 2 years of going backward. Remember these guys were 21-22 then and still should be improving now.

2005 Watts, Sweeney, Rix, Raymond...yikes.
2004 Fiora, McQualter, Acland, McGough, Gwilt...yikes!
2003 R Clarke, S.Fisher, C. Callaghan, Gram and Guerra...thank god for S Fisher.
2002 Goddard, Brroks, Penny, Ferguson, L. Fisher (picks 6 and 31 for Brooks!!! McIntosh went 9, MAckie 7, Salopek 6...


So the power of 21-22 year olds that should have been improving is restricted to Maguire (injuries), Ball (injuries but now improving thank god), X Clarke (injuries), Gram (dropped off again after poor pre-season with injury), Goddard (injury, going ok), Montagna (going ok) and Dal Santo (lost the ability to win a clearance or lay a tackle, glaring disappointment).

You can't go 4 national drafts with no return, there is a giant Richmond sized hole in our list because of it, finger pointing is pointless because who knows who was responsible for trades etc. We have had some bad luck with injuries to the 2001 class and haven't brought through anyone else since (S Fisher and Goddard aside). You screw up national drafts and trading continually, you destroy the club. Now we have to rebuild via heavily compromised drafts. Fun 5 years ahead.

[rodgerfox]

. Our list was fine.

....but in decline....and past its best....and requiring work to become again a true contender.

IMO of course.

I agree with you.

I also said this at the time of the sacking.

I felt 2007 was our last true hope with the list, before a mini-rebuild would be required.

'Mini-rebuild', because we would lose some veterans, and didn't have many kids coming through. Our core was good enough to get us into the 8 comfortably, but I doubted we'd be a contender seriously for another 1-2 years.

By changing coach however prior to this 'mini-rebuild', it would take longer (for reasons I've explained 1000 times).

Lyon was given a very, very good list. There was natural 'decline' in terms of the balance of it. Not in terms of the wuality of talent - that's perhaps where you and I disagree. But in terms of the theory of....

small % of kids (2-3 1st or 2nd year kids)
major % of 'prime' (ie. aged between 23-27 with 100 games played)
small % of geezers (a couple of solid starting 18 29-30odd year olds)

We had the middle box ticked, and thanks to very good list management, had this box ticked for the next 6 years.

Thanks to good list management, guys like Bakes, Lenny, Max and Milne would be the third box ticked for the next 5 years.

It was the influx of kids that we had to wait for. Some call this poor list management. I'd call it 'perfect' list management to possibly get all three areas covered for an extended period of time. It's virtually impossible to do.

Poor list management? F*ck me, what do people expect? To be a top 4 side and maintina a perfect list balance for 10 years too?

Most clubs bust their nuts to get the core sorted for even a short period of time. We had that covered. It only takes 1-2 years to tick the 'youth' box. If you're lucky or trade a good player, you can fix it with one draft.


The problem here, is that Lyon is not getting the best out of the core, and hasn't drafted or traded to fix the 'youth problem'. Armitage is a gun, and McEvoy will be good - but in 2 trade periods we haven't picked up a draft pick that would get us a ready made AFL player. By clogging our list and trading picks 26 and 43 (or whatever they were) we've also squandered our chances of fluking one.


So, let's not get confused with Lyon inheriting a talentless list as opposed to inheriting a list that required very minor adjustments to it's balance over 1-2 years.

We have talent. More than most clubs. And the unbalance should have been resolved by now. It would have under Thomas, and should have under Lyon.

[saintly]

. Our list was fine.

....but in decline....and past its best....and requiring work to become again a true contender.

IMO of course.

I agree with you.

I also said this at the time of the sacking.


We have talent. More than most clubs. And the unbalance should have been resolved by now. It would have under Thomas, and should have under Lyon.

but thomas did not believe in rebulding or even mini rebuilding. therfore the unbalance would be greater

[degruch]

Sr you just got it so wrong in 2006.

.

Ok...so which players do you rate differently?

Quite a lot of them would have been rated differently in 2006...you're only commenting with the benefit of hindsight.