Where are all the Lyon supporters now ?

[St DAC]

Leigh Fisher had his best year in 2007. Who was the coach?
Gilbert has been poor this year, but good last year. Same coach for both.
Birss is a better player than is given credit for. Can kick a goal, is courageous, delivers the ball as well as anyone else we have, and can negate a good player.

It's not always the coach. And I said the same things when GT was criticised. Remember then? GT was called the mini-bus. Now he's remembered as a messiah. Neither view is right.

[St.Kenny]

I disagree with your premise that RL hasn't managed to get a better standard out of anyone.

Milne has been better than under GT.
Fiora was better in 2007. He's dropped off this year, however.
Birss has improved.
Attard has been better than his Brisbane form.
Leigh Fisher as well.

Clearly some good weed being smoked sown Gippsland way.

CARE TO DISCUSS THE MANY THAT HAVE DROPPED OFF by the way

Individuals aside isnt it about how well the coach has gelled the team ?

JD wrote

This thread was targeted at certain individuals who waged an online barrage of criticisms at the previous coach (and continue to do so). Some continue to stalk him today (and I'm not talking the online variety).

They were convinced that he wasn't getting the best out of the list and any coach with half a brain would have us winning flag after flag. They actually even went further than that with some suggesting he was trying to rip us off by receiving a bonus if he won two flags (the suggestion being that two flags at least was a monty)

Teflon if you hadn't guessed is one of those posters. The rest are conspicuous by their absence.

Couldnt have put it more succinctly myself ...........

[St DAC]

Clearly some good weed being smoked sown Gippsland way.

CARE TO DISCUSS THE MANY THAT HAVE DROPPED OFF by the way

Individuals aside isnt it about how well the coach has gelled the team ?

If only!

I have discussed the drop offs. I'm just tired of the 'blame it all on the coach' brigade who give the players a free pass.

Yes, the senior coach is ultimately responsible. And if we continue to serve up this rubbish I'd expect the board to look at the coach at season's end. But until then he has my support, and I expect the players to pull their fingers out and start playing to standard. It's they who are out on the ground, not the coaches.

[Buckets]

We have a real blight in the Senior Team at the moment.

Far too many passengers, and I'm not just talking about Raph and co.

Blokes like Dal Santo and Montagna are front runners - so is Milne, and Schneider, and goodness knows where Kosi is.

In relation to Ross Lyon, he's got to be sacked if he does not address this problem. I'd much prefer to see a teasm of tryers, and tough nuts who would kill for the jumper rather than playing for themselves.

We must Give Lyon a chance to address this issue. In another post somebody talk about the 'kids needing to grow up' and I totally agree.

If we have players down there who play for one coach, and not another, well lets get rid of the bludgers. Its the same old St.Kilda crap of the past.

We got rid of Sheldon, becuse of player troubles, and we also got rid of Alves because of the same thing.

We have to take action NOW.

If Lyon doesn't blood kids for the rest of the year, and he keeps on recycling the likes of Fiora, then he's not the man for the job.

With good players, they'll respect the coach even if they don't like him. From what I've seen, there's no respect from certain layers, then they have to go.

Is it respect or a lack of understanding of what Lyon actually wants? I feel as though they are caught betwix and between two different styles that Lyon wants them to play! One second they are very defensive and the next the are not being defensive at all!
I don't believe it is respect i just don't think that Lyon has got through to the players what he wants them to do!
And when he brings in Soft unaccountable players what do you expect to happen? If they didn't respect Lyon why in the world would so many of them be hanging around and re-signing?

[fonz_#15]

Gilbert has been poor this year, but good last year. Same coach for both.

yeah i know, Gilbert has sucked whilst rehabbing that injury

[St DAC]

His games before getting the injury were poor compared to his 2007 form.

Was that too difficult a concept for you? I'll dumb it down next time ...

[meher baba]

In relation to the earlier discussion of whether there is anyone on the forum seriously calling for Lyon to be sacked now.

I can put my hand up.

I'm sick of him slagging off the players. That should only come when he can put his hand on his heart and state that he has done 150% of what he can do to win games.

I can't see any signs that he is going to take us anywhere we want to go. I think even a caretaker coach - even, say, SOS - would be a better bet for the rest of the year.

You've never liked him, and have been bleating for his removal for weeks now. The man has a contract, and deserves to finish at least this year out. Who knows, he may make the hard decisions needed and turn it around. He at least deserves the chance to do so, and we'd be paying him anyway.

Of course, that wouldn't suit your agenda ...

Oh, BTW, he was right; the playing group were collectively soft yesterday.

I don't have an agenda: never have had. I have always tried to call it as I see it. I know this makes many on here unhappy, but so be it.

In September 2006, I called it that it was only a good idea to sack GT if we could replace him with a current coach who had a better proven record of success at the AFL level. This really meant that we could only go for one of Malthouse, Williams, Mathews or - although I don't think they were serious prospects - Pagan, Sheedy, Worsfold or Roos. I wouldn't have ever been in favour even of a Laidley, a Wallace or an Eade because their records were no better (or worse) than GT's.

I certainly didn't support the idea of bringing in an assistant coach from the Swans of whom I had barely heard simply because (a) he had previously worked at the Swans, (b) Robert Walls liked him, (c) Butterss's firm of recruitment consultants liked him and (d) he performed well in aptitude tests and simulation exercises.

But, notwithstanding all that, I was fully behind Lyon at first. I was concerned about his public comment that he never sought the job, but I continued to be a strong supporter until the Kangaroos game last year, which - in retrospect - can be seen as a prime example of the rather manic depressive style of match day coaching that we have seen ever since: veering alarmingly from tedious "accountable", Swans-style chipalotto crap to a sort of wild, attack at all costs approach with an abandonment of any sort of marking.

After the Kangas game, I said I thought he should be given the chop. I calmed down a bit after that when we performed ok against the Eagles, Hawks and a few others, but returned to the same view after the second games against the Dogs and Swans: in which I thought we played a rubbish brand of football.

This year, leaving aside the irrelevant fact that we won the "Who Cares Cup", we have played this rubbish football for most of the regular season. We have maybe looked ok in the odd quarter or so, but Lyon seems to be unable to adjust to any sort of change of tactics on the part of opposing coaches, so any advantage we have at quarter time or half time always feels very fragile indeed.

I remain steadfastly of the opinion that getting rid of GT and not replacing him with a Mathews or Malthouse was a ridiculous decision, and one that was clearly taken on non-footballing grounds; IMO, a combination of Butterss's deteriorating personal relationship with GT and Archie Fraser's overwheening amibition for total control(which started with stabbing the coach in the back and then moved on to many of the club staff, Ken Sheldon and ultimately Butterss and most of the former Board). The stupidity of the decision was then compounded by passing over a relatively safe pair of hands such as Longmire, Bond or Harvey and going for the ultimate left field candidate in Lyon.

When you make an important business decision like sacking a reasonably successful football coach on non-business grounds, you take a serious risk. When you replace him with a virtually unknown quantity, you take that level of risk into the stratosphere.

Unfortunately, we are now reaping the "rewards" of that risk-taking behaviour.

I don't really care who the Board replaces Lyon with, but they need to replace him soon in order to restore the faith of supporters, sponsors and - most importantly - players in the club's brand.

And this time they should go for a known quantity, be that a proven coach like a Sheedy, a club legend like a Burkey or even a current assistant like Silvagni. But please, please, please no more rabbits out of hats like Lyon.

[Buckets]

If you've got half of your side getting 10 possessions or less, I don't think any game style is going to matter.

I just don't understand why we have gone backwards from last year - supposedly better list and less injuries.

I'm not a Lyon apologist. You could be right and all of our woes could be because of Lyon, but how many coaches are we going to have to get rid of if its the players who will only play under certain conditions?

On the other side of the ledger how many players do we get rid of if we need to help a coach?

[iwantmeseats]

In relation to the earlier discussion of whether there is anyone on the forum seriously calling for Lyon to be sacked now.

I can put my hand up.

I'm sick of him slagging off the players. That should only come when he can put his hand on his heart and state that he has done 150% of what he can do to win games.

I can't see any signs that he is going to take us anywhere we want to go. I think even a caretaker coach - even, say, SOS - would be a better bet for the rest of the year.

You've never liked him, and have been bleating for his removal for weeks now. The man has a contract, and deserves to finish at least this year out. Who knows, he may make the hard decisions needed and turn it around. He at least deserves the chance to do so, and we'd be paying him anyway.

Of course, that wouldn't suit your agenda ...

Oh, BTW, he was right; the playing group were collectively soft yesterday.

I don't have an agenda: never have had. I have always tried to call it as I see it. I know this makes many on here unhappy, but so be it.

In September 2006, I called it that it was only a good idea to sack GT if we could replace him with a current coach who had a better proven record of success at the AFL level. This really meant that we could only go for one of Malthouse, Williams, Mathews or - although I don't think they were serious prospects - Pagan, Sheedy, Worsfold or Roos. I wouldn't have ever been in favour even of a Laidley, a Wallace or an Eade because their records were no better (or worse) than GT's.

I certainly didn't support the idea of bringing in an assistant coach from the Swans of whom I had barely heard simply because (a) he had previously worked at the Swans, (b) Robert Walls liked him, (c) Butterss's firm of recruitment consultants liked him and (d) he performed well in aptitude tests and simulation exercises.

But, notwithstanding all that, I was fully behind Lyon at first. I was concerned about his public comment that he never sought the job, but I continued to be a strong supporter until the Kangaroos game last year, which - in retrospect - can be seen as a prime example of the rather manic depressive style of match day coaching that we have seen ever since: veering alarmingly from tedious "accountable", Swans-style chipalotto crap to a sort of wild, attack at all costs approach with an abandonment of any sort of marking.

After the Kangas game, I said I thought he should be given the chop. I calmed down a bit after that when we performed ok against the Eagles, Hawks and a few others, but returned to the same view after the second games against the Dogs and Swans: in which I thought we played a rubbish brand of football.

This year, leaving aside the irrelevant fact that we won the "Who Cares Cup", we have played this rubbish football for most of the regular season. We have maybe looked ok in the odd quarter or so, but Lyon seems to be unable to adjust to any sort of change of tactics on the part of opposing coaches, so any advantage we have at quarter time or half time always feels very fragile indeed.

I remain steadfastly of the opinion that getting rid of GT and not replacing him with a Mathews or Malthouse was a ridiculous decision, and one that was clearly taken on non-footballing grounds; IMO, a combination of Butterss's deteriorating personal relationship with GT and Archie Fraser's overwheening amibition for total control(which started with stabbing the coach in the back and then moved on to many of the club staff, Ken Sheldon and ultimately Butterss and most of the former Board). The stupidity of the decision was then compounded by passing over a relatively safe pair of hands such as Longmire, Bond or Harvey and going for the ultimate left field candidate in Lyon.

When you make an important business decision like sacking a reasonably successful football coach on non-business grounds, you take a serious risk. When you replace him with a virtually unknown quantity, you take that level of risk into the stratosphere.

Unfortunately, we are now reaping the "rewards" of that risk-taking behaviour.

I don't really care who the Board replaces Lyon with, but they need to replace him soon in order to restore the faith of supporters, sponsors and - most importantly - players in the club's brand.

And this time they should go for a known quantity, be that a proven coach like a Sheedy, a club legend like a Burkey or even a current assistant like Silvagni. But please, please, please no more rabbits out of hats like Lyon.

fantastic post and spot on! Just one small correction. We have played rubbish football ALL year, not most. Not ONE single four quarter effort anywhere, not ONE! And the rest of the quarters are a mix of average/boring/terrible.

Ill still buy my membership and turn up though, cause somehow I cant stop.

[Buckets]

The thing that gets me is that the previous admin on 2 occassions hunted down and coaxed someone into the coaching role at st kilda and both times those choices - blight and lyon - have not had the success or the real inspiring passion that was needed at this club!

[iwantmeseats]

The thing that gets me is that the previous admin on 2 occassions hunted down and coaxed someone into the coaching role at st kilda and both times those choices - blight and lyon - have not had the success or the real inspiring passion that was needed at this club!

It would seem neither were hell bent on getting the job in the first place either. May be of no consequence, just saying.

[Buckets]

The thing that gets me is that the previous admin on 2 occassions hunted down and coaxed someone into the coaching role at st kilda and both times those choices - blight and lyon - have not had the success or the real inspiring passion that was needed at this club!

It would seem neither were hell bent on getting the job in the first place either. May be of no consequence, just saying.

I think it speaks volumes about the people that we hired! When most companies look for new employees they normally get the candidate who shows initiative and wants to work for them! Not people who don't want to really be there and have better things to do! I honestly think that Roos would be very happy with the fact that we have Ross and he still has the Horse to look after the Swans when he goes and to be honest he would be thanking his lucky stars that it is not the other way around!

[Teflon]

Is anyone seriously calling for him to be sack now?

The only one who keeps bringing up his sacking is the great supporter.

You must mean Mehebabblelots as hes called for Lyon to be sacked repeatedly....thats who you were referring to was it not?

[Teflon]

Why are the players getting a free pass, and all the heat is on Ross Lyon? Sure, the buck stops with him, and no doubt he'll pay the price if our crappy form continues, but seriously;

Saying that Dal used to tackle, but doesn't now. What, Ross has convinced him not to?
Roo misses a goal from 20 metres dead in front. What, Ross was hanging onto his foot so he'd miss?


The players collectively are not performing at an acceptable level. And they are the ones who need to turn it around, or they'll end up off the list.

Coaches look sensational when their players are in form, and like crap when they're not. But only the players can kick, mark, handball, tackle, and run.

Some absolute rubbish in this thread:

According to Dodg we now conclusivley know Lyon cant teach.
Dan says (still!!) the same list as 2004 is there....f@rk me!!
Jeff wants the coach sacked.....
Babblelots?
Saints43 cant make a cohesive point or understand "lets assess when we have enough time/information to"
Others reckon he has to go bny Rd 14...
F@rk me we even had people on here suggesting Lyon had to go cause he wasnt a "St Kilda" person - whats the matter with some tw!ts...cant they handle an outside opinion telling them not everything is as rosy at St Kilda as they in utopia land like to believe??????

What is astounding is we STILL as supporters WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT face up to facts - we are carrying overrated players and HAVE NOT replenished the team sufficiently since 2004.

Im all for replacing anyone/anything to get us where we need to be but sack a coach who has had 1 draft and isnt even half way through his contract is simply stunningly Richmond-like and bizarre...

Im amazed we have so many of their supporters - and NOT supporters who are prepared to ask some hard, confronting questions of players performing well below AFL standard when they cross the white line.

Ask yourself - HOW CAN ROBERT HARVEY perform as he did on the weekend? or Lenny Hayes???????? what sets these two apart from some others?????

IF Lyon is dragging the team down....whats wrong with these 2???.........why are they performing?? or Hudgton for that matter this year????THE REASON IS because they are PROFESSIONAL AFL footballers who dont require "John Kennedy speeches" at every 3qtr time to motivate them - these guys have enough pride in their performance and respect for the jumper that they bust their gut no mater what - do others??????(just try and be honest here??)

As DAC said in such an inept display it isnt the coach who wont run, wont tackle, misses targets and makes pathetic and dumb decisions on a footy field - thats players.

I just hope that the time has come that St Kilda recognises some hard questions need answering and that we dont opt for the easy "out". As I said by all means replace the coach but do so after hes had a chance and dont let lazy, soft players walk away scott free.

[Shaggy]

On a side note, what may be a concern is that Lyon, a guy who quite clearly has not been able to get any improvement from anyone on our list is going to make 'hard calls' at season's end.

Is he really capable of making these decisions? Would we potentially be trading guys who are very good players, then sacking Lyon a year later only to be left with half a list?

Its a real concern.

If RL can't turn around the season then the Board should make the hard call on RL at the end of the season ... i.e. sack him or give him another 2-3 years to make the Saints work.

The worst the Board could do is allow RL to make wholesale changes to the list at end of the year and then sack him one year later.

[Saints43]

[Ask yourself - HOW CAN ROBERT HARVEY perform as he did on the weekend? or Lenny Hayes???????? what sets these two apart from some others?????

IF Lyon is dragging the team down....whats wrong with these 2???.........why are they performing?? or Hudgton for that matter this year????THE REASON IS because they are PROFESSIONAL AFL footballers who dont require "John Kennedy speeches" at every 3qtr time to motivate them - these guys have enough pride in their performance and respect for the jumper that they bust their gut no mater what - do others??????(just try and be honest here??)

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

That they get the most out of themselves (work-rate wise) all the time is an absolute credit to them. I would say the same of Max, Baker, Blake, Fisher, Ball & Riewoldt. I'm not including first or second year players - they're capacities are unknown.

Most players, I would think, need to be managed to get the most out of themselves. In the same way that very few people go to work and give their all every day. It's not just once a week that players need to give their all - it's every training session. If we want to be successful.

No club in this salary cap age is going to have 20 players on a list of 38 who are self-motivated & self-managed (I believe these are Lyons terms) and have the skills sufficient not to be lambasted by supporters the way Blake etc. are. These players are Daniel Kerr, Chris Judd, Luke Hodge, Ryan O'Keefe etc.

There will be players (most) on the list who will require significant management to get the best performances out of themselves.

They need to be lead by a leader.

How many players has Robert Harvey sat down with in a dressing room after a game having run himself into the ground when others haven't? They don't just 'get inspired' because Harves works hard. It's not that simple. And wasn't when Bob Skilton played either.

And work-rate is only one aspect of the team we need to be getting right. There's plenty more to do.

[rodgerfox]

Gilbert has been poor this year, but good last year. Same coach for both.

yeah i know, Gilbert has sucked whilst rehabbing that injury

So did Brooks and Watts.

[Saintlyone]

Teflon wrote

Ask yourself - HOW CAN ROBERT HARVEY perform as he did on the weekend? or Lenny Hayes???????? what sets these two apart from some others?????

Thats an easy one Teffers ...he's Robert harvey. He'd perform well in any team despite the coach. Wasnt he best on ground a couple of times for the Vics. Wasnt he superb even under Timmy and Blight?

[JeffDunne]

If every player played like Harvs you wouldn't need a coach, you'd only need a tactician.

[St DAC]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

[Saints43]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

Are you saying that Dal Santo was born with the same physiological capacity as Robert Harvey? That's ridiculous.

Why don't you read the whole post instead of aruguing for arguments sake?

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Oh, hang on. I've already written that...

[St DAC]

What a copout that is. No-one expects the same output as Harvey. Just the same input.

"Sorry, I don't have the intellectual capacity to understand I need to work hard".

What are they, stupid? It's not rocket science. Get your fingers out and work hard! If you need examples of how that looks watch R. Harvey ply his trade.

Jack Nicklaus said 'The harder I work the luckier I get'. It remains true today.

[Saints43]

What a copout that is. No-one expects the same output as Harvey. Just the same input.

"Sorry, I don't have the intellectual capacity to understand I need to work hard".

What are they, stupid? It's not rocket science. Get your fingers out and work hard! If you need examples of how that looks watch R. Harvey ply his trade.

Jack Nicklaus said 'The harder I work the luckier I get'. It remains true today.

Are they stupid? They're footballers.

Of course everybody should work as hard at their jobs as they can.
But they don't, do they?

[Buckets]

Why are the players getting a free pass, and all the heat is on Ross Lyon? Sure, the buck stops with him, and no doubt he'll pay the price if our crappy form continues, but seriously;

Saying that Dal used to tackle, but doesn't now. What, Ross has convinced him not to?
Roo misses a goal from 20 metres dead in front. What, Ross was hanging onto his foot so he'd miss?


The players collectively are not performing at an acceptable level. And they are the ones who need to turn it around, or they'll end up off the list.

Coaches look sensational when their players are in form, and like crap when they're not. But only the players can kick, mark, handball, tackle, and run.

Some absolute rubbish in this thread:

According to Dodg we now conclusivley know Lyon cant teach.
Dan says (still!!) the same list as 2004 is there....f@rk me!!
Jeff wants the coach sacked.....
Babblelots?
Saints43 cant make a cohesive point or understand "lets assess when we have enough time/information to"
Others reckon he has to go bny Rd 14...F@rk me we even had people on here suggesting Lyon had to go cause he wasnt a "St Kilda" person - whats the matter with some tw!ts...cant they handle an outside opinion telling them not everything is as rosy at St Kilda as they in utopia land like to believe??????

What is astounding is we STILL as supporters WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT face up to facts - we are carrying overrated players and HAVE NOT replenished the team sufficiently since 2004.

Im all for replacing anyone/anything to get us where we need to be but sack a coach who has had 1 draft and isnt even half way through his contract is simply stunningly Richmond-like and bizarre...

Im amazed we have so many of their supporters - and NOT supporters who are prepared to ask some hard, confronting questions of players performing well below AFL standard when they cross the white line.

Ask yourself - HOW CAN ROBERT HARVEY perform as he did on the weekend? or Lenny Hayes???????? what sets these two apart from some others?????

IF Lyon is dragging the team down....whats wrong with these 2???.........why are they performing?? or Hudgton for that matter this year????THE REASON IS because they are PROFESSIONAL AFL footballers who dont require "John Kennedy speeches" at every 3qtr time to motivate them - these guys have enough pride in their performance and respect for the jumper that they bust their gut no mater what - do others??????(just try and be honest here??)

As DAC said in such an inept display it isnt the coach who wont run, wont tackle, misses targets and makes pathetic and dumb decisions on a footy field - thats players.

I just hope that the time has come that St Kilda recognises some hard questions need answering and that we dont opt for the easy "out". As I said by all means replace the coach but do so after hes had a chance and dont let lazy, soft players walk away scott free.

So Tef you are saying that if we were to be 5-9 by the conclusion of Rd 14 everything is still rosy. Geezus take the bloody Rose-coloured glasses off could you!
In your mind we should just leave Ross to coach and at the end of the year and then clean out the list. Ok then who are you going to keep because right now there would only be a handful that should be off limits:
Harves
Lenny
Ball
Milne
Roo?
Dal?
Sam F
Max

Everyone else is up for grabs in my mind at the moment. But hell its ok that we are playing injured players who should be given a rest, its ok that the same soft unaccountable players are selected week in and week out and that it has taken the last 18 months for the coaching department to realise that they have dead wood! Gee a smart bunch there!
Do you really think that Roo will be around by 2010 when the GC come in? Especially if he is sent out on the field looking the the f&*^*^% mummy? Why when he can be the poster boy for a new club and get paid by the truckload!
The main sticking point is that the young guys in the team have gone backwards, simple as that, there us no way to sugar coat it, this year player development has stagnated at best and the blame will always be laid at the feet of the football department! We all know that there are players who shouldnt have the opportunity to put on the RWB problem is the one's we want to see given a go are sent to Casey and we continue to see players who have continually disappointed. Hell even you mate Barks is getting worried about that!

[St DAC]

Are they stupid? They're footballers.

Of course everybody should work as hard at their jobs as they can.
But they don't, do they?

And that's the coach's fault is it? Unless he instructs them to work hard, and enforces it somehow, they don't have to?

Isn't it their own responsibility to work the team plan as much as is humanly possible? If they do that, and still play poorly, then it's the plan that's wrong, and the coach should wear that. But on recent form how on earth can you evaluate the game plan properly given the insipid efforts of our supposed team of quality?