St Kilda's greatest player

[Mr Magic]

You know how we marvel at Harves baulking opponents?
You know how we marvel at him running down the ground bouncing the ball with his left hand?

You somehow need to get hold of video/film of Baldock. He would sidestep/baulk players at will - its why he was nicknamed Mr Magic.

One night at training he ran down the ground bouncing a footy in each hand.
There is a story that when he came back to coach in the late 80's he repeated the feat to ther amazement of the players, including Harves.

It is almost impossible to compare players of different eras with each other. From one era to another the game changes, the players change, the rulse change, the training changes.

Baldock was unbelievable. Opposition supporters used to marvel at what he did on the football field.
Stewart was brilliant.
Ditterich made our players 'walk taller' on the field.
Barker was an enigma - who could believe the stuff he did on teh field?
Plugger was the most intimidating player we had in terms of taking a game by the scruff iof the neck.
Winmar was sublime.
Harvey invented the gut-running game of today.

Any of the above could mount an argument to be in our best 5 players from the 60's onwards.
Who knows what the players who played in our first 70 years were like?

[jay young]

baldock was the best look at his games leading up to the 66 flag .

[Mark]

The trouble with most (all) of us is that we pretty much go back to the sixties only. Perhaps it is the best StKilda player since 1960. There were many great players we never saw play.

Bill Mohr's record of goals with StKilda teams that did not perfom
to well suggest he was a gun. What about Jack Davis...finished in the Brownlow top ten 4 times during the 30's (again in poor teams).There are heaps more. Get yourself a copy of Heros with Halos its a great read of
StKilda players from the old days.

PS Since the 60's....Baldock was my hero as a kid in the late 60's.

Mark

[Stephen Theodore]

Baldock, just ahead of Stewart, with Plugger in next. Seen a fair bit of them both. For his height Baldock was an amazing player, not only on the ground , but could play a lot taller than his 5'10" ?. Stewarts foot passing (both feet) was a class ahead of anyone else at the time. nothing more to be said on Plugger. Most people on this forum would remember him well, an absolute champion, and a real shame he now has issues with our club.

[degruch]

Hmmm...Stewart yes, Baldock yes, but I was never sad to see Plugger leave. Great player, yeah, massive liability, indeed.

[bergsone]

In my time Baldock ,Stewart ,Harvey,Lockett ,Ditterich for those who didnt see Baldock play ,many times he would be double teamed,and still dominate the game Stewart was the complete package ,skillful ,couragous,and a ball magnet.showing my age now special mentions toBarker Winmar mcintosh Burns Burke K Neale and Loewe

[happy feet]

The Doc....hard to beat the Premiership Captain. Loved to watch Nicky Winmar. Harvey will have to be up there as well.

[congorozides]

Baldock by a mile. Only 5ft 11 (shorter than Harvey), and played at Centre Half Forward. The best ground player in my opinion, but could also take screamers. Captain coached Tasmania at the age of 23. One of the best half dozen players ever.

Stewart next. Think of Dal Santo, but this guy was totally fearless.

Lockett had the most ability of any of them. Never fully exploited his potential, but what we saw was enough to put him in the elite of the elite.

Probably being harsh on Harves, but I rate him at No 4. Not as skillful as the three above him, but the guy has a heart bigger than Phar Lap.

Not so sure after the big four, but from the players I've seen, in no particular order:

Verdun Howell
Cowboy Neale
John McIntosh
Carl Ditterich
Trevor Barker
Nicky Winmar

Only Harvs in our current list makes the top 10 IMO.

i like this list a lot. id have to agree with it. Fair to say Baldock, Stewart and Plugger are top 3. Harves and Winmar certainly in the top 10.


Loewe and Burke would not make my top 10 because sadly their kciking really let them down.

Riewoldt might sneak in to the top 10 if he keeps improving and gets moore mature. But hes not quite there yet.

[Dan Warna]

of those i've seen

from plugger, banger, winmar and barker.

plugger, the man kicked 72 goals someone said from 7 games. Buddy kicked 1/2 that he's the next $$$ million $$$ player.

plugger didn't get a vote unless he scored more than 12 goals, for his era set a level so far above that he was judged by that standard.

Winmar, a legendar player with every trick or skill in the book, one of the most naturally gifted taltens I've seen, if modern football didn't turn him into an automaton, he'd show the kids today raw skill to make the angels cry.

barker, every time he soared and hit the deck you'd wince because he looked broken, its like the hand of god picked him up and flung him at the ball. and blistering pace to burn, how anyone could run and bounce and run like that was amazing.

banger, there aren't enough superlatives, the personal accolades are nearly endless. I think the only two medals not won by him are the norm smith and the premiership, and no player worked harder in the 97 GF than banger, Its amazing he didn't snap in two carrying so many. loved by everyone.

[Winmar7Fan]

and Plugger are top 3. Harves and Winmar certainly in the top 10.

I guess i'll just have to settle for that

[bergsone]

[quote="Mr Magic"]You know how we marvel at Harves baulking opponents?

You somehow need to get hold of video/film of Baldock. He would sidestep/baulk players at will - its why he was nicknamed Mr Magic.


It is almost impossible to compare players of different eras with each other. From one era to another the game changes, the players change, the rulse change, the training changes.

Unfortunately the old footage doesnt really do full justice to how great some of these players were

[GrumpyOne]

It is almost impossible to compare players of different eras with each other. From one era to another the game changes, the players change, the rulse change, the training changes.

Exactly. Baldock's tactics of throwing the ball in front of him and picking it up on the second bounce would deemed improper disposal these days. Also Lockett would have trouble with the interpretation of pushing/shoving in the goalsquare in place this and last season.

I approached this task as if it was the old schoolyard footy days, ie who would you pick first, second etc.

Out of the players I have seen, The top five would be:

Winmar
Lockett
Baldock
Stewart
Harvey.

Out of all of them, Winmar is top because of his ability to win the ball off the other team. The others are more dependant on the ball coming to them.

[degruch]

That's my thoughts...Lockett was totally dependant on those delivering it to him...when did he ever lay a tackle or a block? Granted, that's not what he was paid for, and he more than made up for it in the kicking department. However, if Hudson hadn't taken him under his wing, would he have been as good a FF? Bladock, Harvs, Stewart and Winmar all had far more extensive natural skill...that make 'em great in my books.

[n1ck]

Lockett.

By a mile.

I never saw Baldock play except in black and white but from everything said by everyone, you'd have to rate him either first or second.

Harves third.

Plugger was the most complete footballer ive ever seen. He had strength, pace, sublime skill, and that grunt that we so badly need now. The most intimidating force to ever walk onto a footy ground.

[Dan Warna]

Dont underestimate lockett.

the only great player at st kilda delivering the ball to him was winmar, banger was a pup, burke was a back pocket, basically it was lob the ball into the 50 arc and lockett will pick it up.

I swear it seemed the 50m arc was TINY when plugger was there, he was just everywhere.

he had such an enormous presence.

the problem with st kilda was plugger, loewe, winmar, frawley, david grant, gilbert mccadam, russell morris, and then an abyss into hard working but average to mediocre players to support them.

Winmar was magnificent, basically he shone like a beacon of talent in the midfield, which boasted such stars are tim pekin, brett bowser bowey, skeeter coughlan and the like.

So good were the stars at that time, if 4 of the guns fired, then it was devestation for teh opposition.

in the early 90s harvey went from a talented half forward, ruck rover, into being one of the premier midfielders, and by 95, the super seven had shrunk to the fab four, winmar, burke, harvey and loewe, as spud slowed down dramatically.

pretty much burke, harvey and winmar were winning games off their own talent in the midfield with loewing kicking 160 goals in two seasons.

put those 4 players in a half decent team and they were guns.

winmar turned down big $$ from carlton and collingwood and some say WCE. the offers from carlton's big jack for harvey were reputedly sign your own check and loewe was to be the front man for freo with a 500k p/a contract.

plugger had his limitations, but for a player of his era, very few, if any dominated like he did.

rod grinter, micky martyn, gary ayres/chris langford, gary pert, any 7 players from essendon all the big men knew they were in for a game when they stood the man mountain.

[degruch]

Ha...but Plugger got a towelling just about every time he played on little Ben Hart! Funny how it works.

Good reponse re Lockett and the team back then...but for mine, top 10, not number one. Maybe I was tainted by the fact that he was a shocking club man and made us look bad so many times...plus an obvious team structure set up for him each week, only to see him limp off with a bad back 30 seconds in, or smashing Peter Caven's face in and getting 6 weeks. It was as much a nightmare as it was a dream. But it was always Winmar to Lockett that set the game alight...don't forget who was first...and who was a speed 200kg 6'5" monster.

Personally, I think Dunstall was the best forward of the period, but that's another thread altogether.

[Winmar7Fan]

It is almost impossible to compare players of different eras with each other. From one era to another the game changes, the players change, the rulse change, the training changes.

Exactly. Baldock's tactics of throwing the ball in front of him and picking it up on the second bounce would deemed improper disposal these days. Also Lockett would have trouble with the interpretation of pushing/shoving in the goalsquare in place this and last season.

I approached this task as if it was the old schoolyard footy days, ie who would you pick first, second etc.

Out of the players I have seen, The top five would be:

Winmar
Lockett
Baldock
Stewart
Harvey.

Out of all of them, Winmar is top because of his ability to win the ball off the other team. The others are more dependant on the ball coming to them.

Grumpy your a man after my own heart. Not to also mention his versatility. He could do everything from high flying marks to playing at full forward and kick 6 goals, pick up 30 effective disposals centre or wing or anywhere, tackle ferociously and something ALL these other players mentioned couldn't do which i think is a weakness to most players is kick fluently off either foot.

[Mr Magic]

In his day Ian Stewart was the equal of Nicky when it came to kicking. He was one of the few VFL footballers playing who could kick either foot equally as well.
Anybody recall the 'intuition' Jimmy and Phil Krakouer had when they played together?
Well Stewart and Baldock had something similar going on 20 years earlier.

Remember that when Stewart played most grounds were mudheaps.
ALso players trained maybe twice a week for an hour.
It was a different football world back then which is why it is so difficult to compare players freom different eras.

[JT]

Not so sure after the big four, but from the players I've seen, in no particular order:

Verdun Howell
Cowboy Neale
John McIntosh
Carl Ditterich
Trevor Barker
Nicky Winmar

Only Harvs in our current list makes the top 10 IMO.

John McIntosh??? you may as well include Gilbert McAdam, he hardly played for us.

[GrumpyOne]

In his day Ian Stewart was the equal of Nicky when it came to kicking. He was one of the few VFL footballers playing who could kick either foot equally as well.
Anybody recall the 'intuition' Jimmy and Phil Krakouer had when they played together?
Well Stewart and Baldock had something similar going on 20 years earlier.

Remember that when Stewart played most grounds were mudheaps.
ALso players trained maybe twice a week for an hour.
It was a different football world back then which is why it is so difficult to compare players freom different eras.

Agreed, however Winmar was more versatile and a better tackler than Stewart.

[Mr Magic]

In his day Ian Stewart was the equal of Nicky when it came to kicking. He was one of the few VFL footballers playing who could kick either foot equally as well.
Anybody recall the 'intuition' Jimmy and Phil Krakouer had when they played together?
Well Stewart and Baldock had something similar going on 20 years earlier.

Remember that when Stewart played most grounds were mudheaps.
ALso players trained maybe twice a week for an hour.
It was a different football world back then which is why it is so difficult to compare players freom different eras.

Agreed, however Winmar was more versatile and a better tackler than Stewart.

Did players actually tackle back in the 60's?

[BigMart]

The people who do not rate R.Harvey as the greatest saint......are just used to what they see.....and take him for granted....

He has influenced more games than any other saint.....

Baldock was great for a short period (8 years) and if he played his whole career as a saint, and not with Latrobe and East Devonport....may have overtaken Harves...but just over 100 games....and he did was not the best player in our p/ship year....Stewart won the B&F, and was one of the BOG that day.....Doc had a quiet day after limping through the finals series with a knee injury

Stewart won his third Brownlow at Richmond in 1971 (a year we were runner up).....if he won the Brownlow with us in a premiership he would overtake Harves....

Of course Tony kicked 500 goals with the swans.....if those were for St.K....and he helped win the 97 GF...he would be the greatest of all.....

Winmar....if not for off field issues and suspensions would be compared to the greats.....was brilliant.......but occasionally let himself and the club down...

There is NO if or buts with Harves.....he has done it all....(well almost ) and in a saints jumper

the rest were all Very Good players.....but not the level as the above mentioned...

[cuz60]

I like the idea of a "Plugger Party", so many great memories.
I'll never forget the day in '91' when Plugger and Nicky came back together against the crows at Moorabbin. We smashed them by 131 points, a young Nigel Smart quickly found out what a power forward was.

Also although it ended up being a sad day, Plugger's first half of the 91 final against Geelong apart from his kicking was the most dominant display I'd seen from a footballer. SOS and Matty Scarlett could have double teamed him and he would have still kicked his 8.

Best five: 1. Tony Lockett

2. Ian Stewart

3. Robert Harvey

4. Darrell Baldock

5. Trevor Barker

[saints11]

my best five

1. ian stewart
2 robert harvey
3. tony lockett
4 carl ditterich
5. darrel baldock or kev neale

[saints11]

my best five

1. ian stewart
2 robert harvey
3. tony lockett
4 carl ditterich
5. darrel baldock or kev neale

woops forgot trev barker