With Trevor Grant's article being seen as a bit of an 'unlatching of the gate' in terms of media heat being applied to Lyon, the inevitable 'sack the coach' talk will no doubt begin.
As with most 'journos', they will write a piece in the leadup to a game where they expect to vindicated. Against a 'play on at all costs' team such as Brisbane, who looked very good last week and certainly ticked the 'entertaining' box - Grant has probably chosen his time well.
If we get rolled this week, the knives will more than likely be out.
So, would we be stupid enough to simply sack a coach mid-year or at year's end without having an ideal candicate available?
Would we take the attiude of 'anyone is better than what we've got' again and sack a coach when the market isn't good?
And on that, is there anyone out there that is any good? Or that we would be comfortable he would be better than Lyon?
So please, before we all start calling for a sacking, or back the press' calls for a sacking, let's have a think about whether or not it's worth throwing away a 2 year investment for a complete unknown quantity - unknown to the point where we don't even have any candidates at all.
Sack Lyon
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ghostoftomwills2
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jonesy
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Surely we couldn't luck out and employ the worst and most lifeless coach of all time twice in a row though?
Can't sack him mid year,however needs a big turn around in the remainder of the season. If my side is not vying as a premiership chance,which we are not anymore,at least I want them to play some entertaining football occassionally,just some,something to enjoy maybe once every couple of weeks. Haven't enjoyed watching a Stkilda game since 06 in a year where we weren't a realistic premiership threat,but still played some great footy at times.For the first time in my life other alternatives than Stkilda are starting to seem more appealing than sitting through 100 minutes of Lyon's trash.
Bring on the barra this sunday!
Can't sack him mid year,however needs a big turn around in the remainder of the season. If my side is not vying as a premiership chance,which we are not anymore,at least I want them to play some entertaining football occassionally,just some,something to enjoy maybe once every couple of weeks. Haven't enjoyed watching a Stkilda game since 06 in a year where we weren't a realistic premiership threat,but still played some great footy at times.For the first time in my life other alternatives than Stkilda are starting to seem more appealing than sitting through 100 minutes of Lyon's trash.
Bring on the barra this sunday!
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JeffDunne
Too early to make any call on Lyon.
In fairness, a lot of changes from the board down have been mase in the last 18 months. That's got to take some toll and time to bed down.
At the end of this season though I reckon we need to make a choice. Either extend his contract or go out and find an experienced coach and pay whatever to get him. If we miss finals and are sitting 3-5 this time next year, it will get ugly if we haven't extended his contract.
In the short-term we need to establish why he's struggling and if needed bring in some help with those areas. I suspect they might not necessarily be football specific areas either.
We need to avoid sacking him if we can, but if we must, the replacement has to be someone with senior experience.
In fairness, a lot of changes from the board down have been mase in the last 18 months. That's got to take some toll and time to bed down.
At the end of this season though I reckon we need to make a choice. Either extend his contract or go out and find an experienced coach and pay whatever to get him. If we miss finals and are sitting 3-5 this time next year, it will get ugly if we haven't extended his contract.
In the short-term we need to establish why he's struggling and if needed bring in some help with those areas. I suspect they might not necessarily be football specific areas either.
We need to avoid sacking him if we can, but if we must, the replacement has to be someone with senior experience.
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JeffDunne
That's why I reckon they need to make a decision at the end of the year - especially if we miss finals. If we need to make some tough decisions on the list then it will be ugly if this board hasn't hitched their wagon to Ross.SENsaintsational wrote:However, remember that he wasn't appointed by this current board. He was an inheritance. That does not bode well if the going gets tough.
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Winmar7Fan
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Regardless of anyones opinions including mine on how he's done so far is one and a half seasons too early to have given him a fair chance . I remember people were wanting Alistair Clarkesons head when they were doing poorly for a couple of seasons as well . How long does a coach need to re program a team .1 season ? If all clubs worked on 1 and a half seasons Terry Wallace and Dean Laidley would be also gone. Going by that Mathew Knights time is running out as well.
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JeffDunne
Clarkson wasn't topping up the list. He was doing quite the opposite of what Lyon is trying to achieve.
Lyon was seen to be someone to take the club to the next level and the drafting/trading has reflected this.
Probably unfair expectations for a rookie coach but given the reasons for hiring him and where our list was at, that is the expectation both inside and outside the club.
It really is unbelievable in the circumstances we didn't even try and sign an experienced coach.
Lyon was seen to be someone to take the club to the next level and the drafting/trading has reflected this.
Probably unfair expectations for a rookie coach but given the reasons for hiring him and where our list was at, that is the expectation both inside and outside the club.
It really is unbelievable in the circumstances we didn't even try and sign an experienced coach.
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saintsRrising
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JeffDunne wrote:
, the replacement has to be someone with senior experience.
I hate to rain on your parade.....
....but any coach with senior experience as a head coach.....is either not going to be any good.....Ayres anyone???......or if they are the two new franchises would be throwing meg-bucks at them to land them.
Personally I do not think any decision can be made on Lyon's performance till the end of the year.....but in the hypothetical that he was replaced....odds are it would be with a current assistant coach and not an experienced coach.
One might lust for Matthews....but he is ripening a new team.....and would have Sydney West chasing him hard.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
Al Clarkson has made tough calls early on to clear out the deadwood.
Different story at St Kilda. We've replaced deadwood with more deadwood.
You probably need to compare Wallace's early years with Lyon for records.
But comparisons with other coaches are useless in the end. It's how he's performing now for us that is important.
I'm still haunted by those words when he was appointed. "Take Us The Next Step."
We are currently stumbling not stepping.
Different story at St Kilda. We've replaced deadwood with more deadwood.
You probably need to compare Wallace's early years with Lyon for records.
But comparisons with other coaches are useless in the end. It's how he's performing now for us that is important.
I'm still haunted by those words when he was appointed. "Take Us The Next Step."
We are currently stumbling not stepping.
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saintsRrising
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The Fireman
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GrumpyOne
Lyon was the best out of the bunch last time.... do we really want to go into a raffle for another coach?
If we sack him, no prospective coach in his right mind will want to coach us, given our propensity to offload coaches.
Leave him there for the full term. The list isn't good enough for us to win a premiership anyway, no matter who coaches us.
If we sack him, no prospective coach in his right mind will want to coach us, given our propensity to offload coaches.
Leave him there for the full term. The list isn't good enough for us to win a premiership anyway, no matter who coaches us.
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JeffDunne
We called Laidley AFTER the second round of interviews, after Laidley had said in the press he hadn't been contacted and RB had been asked publicly why we hadn't approached any senior coaches.saintsRrising wrote:????JeffDunne wrote:
It really is unbelievable in the circumstances we didn't even try and sign an experienced coach.
I thought the gossip was that Laidely and Matthews were both approached...amongst others....
I'll let you join the dots.
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barkers heros
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Yes, that may be true about Clarkson, but Clarkson didn't have the list we have. Also Mathew Knights hasn't got the list either. I think Knights has been good for the Bombers getting his team to move the ball on quickly at all costs. If we adopted Knights brand of footbal with our list, we would be killing them. And remember, Thommo had about six key players who were unavailable for finals during the 06 year. We got rid of Blight after paying him a milliion. We still have a strong list and Lyon still can't get them going. In 2005 and 2006 we had the capability to win the flag but due to injuries we couldn't do it. I say, get rid of him now and install Sheedy or Nathan Burke, someone with a bit of go in them. I can't put up with this anymore.Winmar7Fan wrote:Regardless of anyones opinions including mine on how he's done so far is one and a half seasons too early to have given him a fair chance . I remember people were wanting Alistair Clarkesons head when they were doing poorly for a couple of seasons as well . How long does a coach need to re program a team .1 season ? If all clubs worked on 1 and a half seasons Terry Wallace and Dean Laidley would be also gone. Going by that Mathew Knights time is running out as well.
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barkers heros
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Do you think a prospective coach would knock back $500,000 a year? They would be lining up to coach us.GrumpyOne wrote:Lyon was the best out of the bunch last time.... do we really want to go into a raffle for another coach?
If we sack him, no prospective coach in his right mind will want to coach us, given our propensity to offload coaches.
Leave him there for the full term. The list isn't good enough for us to win a premiership anyway, no matter who coaches us.
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BAM! (shhhh)
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I don't think now is the time.
I'm not a fan of what's been presented to date, but:
#1 - The decision is premature, he ought get until at least years end, when he ought be reviewed regardless.
#2 - A midseason change cripples any search for a new coach... unless the mission is to tank (ala Melbourne '07), you're immediately limited in the selections you can make.
#3 - It would be a reactionary move rather than a pro-active one, and letting anyone other than St Kilda set the agenda for anything other than the best long term interest of St Kilda puts the club behind the 8 ball in an area that is arguably the most critical to long term success given the kind of term that these guys are usually evaluated over.
The ONLY way a move now works is if there's a ready to roll agreement in place for someone like Sheedy. The club cannot proceed without something ready to go, and cannot do diligence on the full range of candidates without making a lame duck of the current coach and robbing themselves of the option to do nothing.
The soonest a move on coaching could feasibly be made would be either when St Kilda are mathematically eliminated from finals, or this years finals are taken off the priority list.
In either case, the club should STILL wait until end of year, as Lyon was employed with a mission which regardless of his success or failure at does not mean he's not the best man for the next mission. Simply to keep the options open and perform with the best interest of the club and long term in mind, Lyon should coach through 2008 regardless of ladder position.
I'm completely unimpressed with Lyon's performance to date (I'll give him a pass on list management, but don't think he's done anything revolutionary or exiting)... but I'd be even less impressed with a decision to sack him, which would only create more problems.
But, as the saying goes, easier to sack the coach than the players...
I'm not a fan of what's been presented to date, but:
#1 - The decision is premature, he ought get until at least years end, when he ought be reviewed regardless.
#2 - A midseason change cripples any search for a new coach... unless the mission is to tank (ala Melbourne '07), you're immediately limited in the selections you can make.
#3 - It would be a reactionary move rather than a pro-active one, and letting anyone other than St Kilda set the agenda for anything other than the best long term interest of St Kilda puts the club behind the 8 ball in an area that is arguably the most critical to long term success given the kind of term that these guys are usually evaluated over.
The ONLY way a move now works is if there's a ready to roll agreement in place for someone like Sheedy. The club cannot proceed without something ready to go, and cannot do diligence on the full range of candidates without making a lame duck of the current coach and robbing themselves of the option to do nothing.
The soonest a move on coaching could feasibly be made would be either when St Kilda are mathematically eliminated from finals, or this years finals are taken off the priority list.
In either case, the club should STILL wait until end of year, as Lyon was employed with a mission which regardless of his success or failure at does not mean he's not the best man for the next mission. Simply to keep the options open and perform with the best interest of the club and long term in mind, Lyon should coach through 2008 regardless of ladder position.
I'm completely unimpressed with Lyon's performance to date (I'll give him a pass on list management, but don't think he's done anything revolutionary or exiting)... but I'd be even less impressed with a decision to sack him, which would only create more problems.
But, as the saying goes, easier to sack the coach than the players...
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
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saintsrokk
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I dont believe we should sack Lyon at this stage. We are not on the bottom of the ladder. However I do believe that we should make changes in the assistant coaches. Bring in some St,Kilda retirees. Try and get Jason Cripps back for a start.
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Last edited by saintsrokk on Sun 20 Feb 2011 8:19am, edited 1 time in total.
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mad saint guy
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Lyon will not be sacked before his contract ends. 3 years is a reasonable amount of time to make a full judgement on a coach and he'll be given his 3 years.
If we're still going downhill by the end of 2009 though, it wouldn't surprise me if we went looking for a replacement. Aaron Hamill seems like an ideal St Kilda coach, although I don't know if he has any interest in coaching. As much as I hate them, guys like Buckley and Hird are probably the next best options. They are fresh out of the game, would immediately draw the players' respect, know how to handle the media and both seem to know something about footy.
If we're still going downhill by the end of 2009 though, it wouldn't surprise me if we went looking for a replacement. Aaron Hamill seems like an ideal St Kilda coach, although I don't know if he has any interest in coaching. As much as I hate them, guys like Buckley and Hird are probably the next best options. They are fresh out of the game, would immediately draw the players' respect, know how to handle the media and both seem to know something about footy.
Last edited by mad saint guy on Wed 21 May 2008 12:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Fireman
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We are stuck with the guy for better or worse, should at least review the situation at the end of this season.
The players look flat, some have gone backwards and overall they don't seem to have their heart in it.
They seem to lack motivation. Although I'm not pulling the boots on...
To be honest Lyons doesn't instill any motivation in me.
The players look flat, some have gone backwards and overall they don't seem to have their heart in it.
They seem to lack motivation. Although I'm not pulling the boots on...
To be honest Lyons doesn't instill any motivation in me.
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GrumpyOne
Yes.barkers heros wrote:Do you think a prospective coach would knock back $500,000 a year? They would be lining up to coach us.GrumpyOne wrote:Lyon was the best out of the bunch last time.... do we really want to go into a raffle for another coach?
If we sack him, no prospective coach in his right mind will want to coach us, given our propensity to offload coaches.
Leave him there for the full term. The list isn't good enough for us to win a premiership anyway, no matter who coaches us.
The way coaching is these days, they get one shot and then its on the scrapheap.
The only ones willing to take it on will be the ones who have nothing to lose, and that is not the quality we want.
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Winmar7Fan
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I agree with what your saying my question is there still needs to be a time frame for how long it takes to have a team or list no matter how good it is to adapt to a different style of play no matter how poor it seems to look like its progressing so how long would you give?barkers heros wrote:Yes, that may be true about Clarkson, but Clarkson didn't have the list we have. Also Mathew Knights hasn't got the list either. I think Knights has been good for the Bombers getting his team to move the ball on quickly at all costs. If we adopted Knights brand of footbal with our list, we would be killing them. And remember, Thommo had about six key players who were unavailable for finals during the 06 year. We got rid of Blight after paying him a milliion. We still have a strong list and Lyon still can't get them going. In 2005 and 2006 we had the capability to win the flag but due to injuries we couldn't do it. I say, get rid of him now and install Sheedy or Nathan Burke, someone with a bit of go in them. I can't put up with this anymore.Winmar7Fan wrote:Regardless of anyones opinions including mine on how he's done so far is one and a half seasons too early to have given him a fair chance . I remember people were wanting Alistair Clarkesons head when they were doing poorly for a couple of seasons as well . How long does a coach need to re program a team .1 season ? If all clubs worked on 1 and a half seasons Terry Wallace and Dean Laidley would be also gone. Going by that Mathew Knights time is running out as well.
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rodgerfox
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With 'modern' football structures, surely sacking a coach is far easier than it was?
The Football Manager is still there, the Recruiting Manager is still there, the Docs and Fitness guys are still there - and all these foundations are now linked to the Football Manager, not the coach.
In theory, a coach can come and go without disrupting anything - except match day coaching.
So why not a sack a coach every 6 weeks until you see something special?
Really, all the coach does is 'coach'. The Football Manager knows the game plan, as he employed the coach based on this among other things, so surely he can explain it to the incumbent and let him go from there.
Robert Walls could have a crack, Sheedy another, then give the experts like Mike Sheahan a go.
Perhaps even GT can back for the finals if the above don't get some instant results?
The Football Manager is still there, the Recruiting Manager is still there, the Docs and Fitness guys are still there - and all these foundations are now linked to the Football Manager, not the coach.
In theory, a coach can come and go without disrupting anything - except match day coaching.
So why not a sack a coach every 6 weeks until you see something special?
Really, all the coach does is 'coach'. The Football Manager knows the game plan, as he employed the coach based on this among other things, so surely he can explain it to the incumbent and let him go from there.
Robert Walls could have a crack, Sheedy another, then give the experts like Mike Sheahan a go.
Perhaps even GT can back for the finals if the above don't get some instant results?
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Winmar7Fan
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6 WEEKS? That cant work how can you assess a teams true performance in 6 weeks teams have good patches , bad patches then injuries etc.rodgerfox wrote:With 'modern' football structures, surely sacking a coach is far easier than it was?
The Football Manager is still there, the Recruiting Manager is still there, the Docs and Fitness guys are still there - and all these foundations are now linked to the Football Manager, not the coach.
In theory, a coach can come and go without disrupting anything - except match day coaching.
So why not a sack a coach every 6 weeks until you see something special?
Really, all the coach does is 'coach'. The Football Manager knows the game plan, as he employed the coach based on this among other things, so surely he can explain it to the incumbent and let him go from there.
Robert Walls could have a crack, Sheedy another, then give the experts like Mike Sheahan a go.
Perhaps even GT can back for the finals if the above don't get some instant results?