Lyon- Player Improvement?

[spert]

The season is not over yet, and only then we can make judgment on who has gone back or forward in form under RL. so far though, some things are noticable:

NDS has not really stepped up much since I first saw him in play 2003, he looked good then and looks good sometimes now, and although a great talent, is not the elite midfielder yet.

We are better off in the ruck this year -quality ruckmen don't grow on trees, but topping up with a couple of experienced players is OK.

Hayes is getting older and slower, and although still in the top group of midfielders, is one-paced and can be tagged out of a game a bit too easy.

Armo is a promising player and is developing nicely..his best is yet to come

CJones will probably play more senior games this season -lacks some skills, but his work rate and application is tops...I wish a few more of our players had the same attack on the contest.

Kozi - sad to watch him this year..no spark at all.

LFisher doing well this year

Birss can be written off by fans a bit easy, but he is reasonably effective..tags OK and kicks goals, a good set of skills to have.

Gram is treading water..is he carrying an injury?

CGardiner has disappointed, but I think he needs to be playing as a flanker alongside quality key position players in the forward line..we only have Roo.

Had Roo been playing against the Woods, we would have won -I have no doubt.

The question from me is -does RL actually get his message across to the players? he sounds very unispirational in interviews.

[Washedup]

MSG really you can type up all kinds of stuff doesnt make it correct or a true indication of what really has improved since RL came along

What is this thread about? Players improving under Lyon. I pointed out that before Lyon was coach, we consistently had young players getting game time and fringe players becoming key members of the team. As soon as Lyon came to the club that stopped. And the scoreboard results have followed suit.

How about you point out the difference in the young one's that RL has had to work worth, definitely NO Riewoldt or Hayes coming through from the drafts of 3-4 years ago.

[saintsRrising]

MSG really you can type up all kinds of stuff doesnt make it correct or a true indication of what really has improved since RL came along

What is this thread about? Players improving under Lyon. I pointed out that before Lyon was coach, we consistently had young players getting game time and fringe players becoming key members of the team. As soon as Lyon came to the club that stopped. And the scoreboard results have followed suit.

How about you point out the difference in the young one's that RL has had to work worth, definitely NO Riewoldt or Hayes coming through from the drafts of 3-4 years ago.

Including that the several years prior were a drafting disaster....

It is a bit hard to be injecting young players into your team when by and large the previous coach did not actually get any in the years just preceding RL taking over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Salopek (plus another) a life long Sainter could have been running around at the Saints now...instead of wearing PA colors.

[Washedup]

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

It doesn't help when GT's last two years at the draft table (3rd and 4th year players now) have produced possibly one player of a decent AFL standard (Gilbert) or is that RL's fault that he couldn't turn the following into guns
McQualter
McGough
Ackland
Gwilt
Rix
Raymond
Sweeney
Watts
That list shows he has had plenty to work with doesn't it.

Aaron Fiora strings together his best season, playing 17 games

Would have thought Fiora had by far his best yr last season, or does that go against your argument.

Leigh Montagna establishes himself in the best 22

Why not put this in 2007, pretty sure he developed immensely last season from average into a very good onballer.

Sam Fisher continues his radical improvement and finishes 3rd in the B&F

Why not put this in 2007. He finished 2nd in the B&F so obviously RL must have worked wonders also.
This whole post of yours is idiotic, i mean it must have taken an absolute genius to turn guys like Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo etc into decent AFL quality players.
Where was your mate Brooks?
You must be a good judge on talent, i know you rated him fairly highly. How the hell did we fail to develop that superstar?

Spot on. Good to see someone with a little sense

[Teflon]

Player development hasnt happened for years - THATS THE POINT - development cant be looked at in 1.5yr isoltaion of a NEW coach FFS.

2002
Lenny Hayes establishes himself as a gun midfielder
Nick Dal Santo plays close to a full season in his first year
Troy Schwarze plays a good season at half back
Xavier Clarke plays 16 games in his first year
Heath Black is brought into the team and becomes a key player
Aussie Jones regains form after a crap few years
Brett Voss comes into the team and takes his footy up to a new level
Brett Moyle plays good football and looks to be a gun of the future
Stephen Milne comes into the team and immediately stamps himself as a regular goalkicker
Steven Baker establishes himself as a premier tagger of the competition

2003
Matt Maguire becomes a best 22 players after playing good football as a key forward, defender and even as a pinch-hitting ruckman
Stephen Powell comes into the team and plays excellent football
Aussie Jones continues his improvement
Nick Riewoldt becomes one of the best key forwards in the comp at age 20
Luke Ball plays 16 games and shows he is a star of the future
Leigh Fisher plays the last 5 games and earns a best 22 spot
Brendon Goddard plays 18 games in his first year
Xavier Clarke plays a full season and kicks multiple bags of goals
Leigh Montagna plays 12 games and earns a rising star nomination
Luke Penny comes into the team and immensely helps the structure of the defence
Alan Murray is elevated from the rookie list and plays a few excellent games

2004
Luke Ball continues his improvement and becomes and elite midfielder
Nick Dal Santo continues his improvement and becomes an elite midfielder
Aussie Jones continues his improvement and becomes and elite running defender
Fraser Gehrig is moved permanently to the forward line and wins the coleman medal
Matt Maguire establishes himself as one of the best CHBs in the league
Brent Guerra comes into the team and kicks 29 goals
Sam Fisher impresses in his 7 games at full back
Trent Knobel becomes a solid tap-ruckman
Nick Riewoldt continues his improvement and wins the AFLPA MVP

2005
Sam Fisher establishes himself in the best 22 with a good season as the third tall defender
Raph Clarke strings some good form together in his 16 games and earns a rising star nomination
Cain Ackland comes into the team and has a solid season, finishing 8th in the B&F
Justin Koschitzke dominates the competition for a brief stretch, showing that he can be a superstar
Jason Gram shows potential in his few games late in the season
James Gwilt walks into the team in round 22, gets a gig in the qualifying final and stars
Andrew McQualter shows excellent signs in his 7 games and looks to be a gun of the future
Steven Baker becomes the best tagger in the competition and wins the club B&F
Stephen Milne establishes himself as the best crumbing forward in the competition, kicking over 60 goals

2006
Jason Gram comes into the team and dominates as a running half back, finishing 2nd in the B&F
Sam Fisher continues his radical improvement and finishes 3rd in the B&F
Leigh Montagna establishes himself in the best 22
Leigh Fisher returns and plays excellent football in defence
Brendon Goddard improves drastically and becomes one of the most valuable players in the team
Aaron Fiora strings together his best season, playing 17 games

2007
Sam Gilbert improves hugely and has a good season as a utility
Aaron Fiora improves on his 2006 season and plays every game
Jason Blake finds some extra confidence and plays every game
Jayden Attard has an ok season as a tagger

2008
David Armitage comes into the team and looks to be a star of the future
Anything else?

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

Lets get DEVELOPMENT in perspective....it is NOT "Allan Murray playing a few good games" FFS.

What a subjective list of tripe.

[Buckets]

Teflon very true regarding the above statement.
However can you honestly say that you are happy with the development that the playing group has shown to date under Lyon?
I for one am a bit worried that it seems that our players that have taken the next step or looked to be doing so, have in fact gone backwards this year! Isn't that a big worry. And just to clarify i am not even discussing GT here i am talking about RL's ability to get the most out of his players.
You only have to look at Leigh Matthews and the Lions and where they are right now. They have not had alot of draft picks and all of a sudden they are playing exciting footy and are in the eight.
It's not only about the high draft picks but being able to motivate and nuture them! Has Lyon shown that he can do that so far?????

[saintsRrising]

What I am concerned about is not the very young players........

......but rather those players who have already been at the club for quite a few years but are not improving.


I mean those players who are reasonably delivering on their potential relative to the stage of their career is way too small a group.


It is these players not improving that is our real problem at present.

Now Lyon is the coach and so he definately has to carry the can for some of this (as he needs to get the most out of the group that he can)...but some also is that some players were overated in the past.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

MSG really you can type up all kinds of stuff doesnt make it correct or a true indication of what really has improved since RL came along

What is this thread about? Players improving under Lyon. I pointed out that before Lyon was coach, we consistently had young players getting game time and fringe players becoming key members of the team. As soon as Lyon came to the club that stopped. And the scoreboard results have followed suit.

exactly who did GT bring in in his last season ? what young gun was it ? NONE
the fact is early on GT played kids cause that all he had and we had quality kid to use from previous s*** seasons once we started getting better and our picks were outside the top ten our young guns dwindled .
lets add to the wasted picks the former coach blew on super satrs like Brooks and Watts
how many rookie elevations had the previous coach had ?? how many guys were knocking on the door of selection under the former coach ?
under RL we have got
Armo
Geary
Allen
McEvoy
CJ
all on a weekly basis pushing for selection

under GT we had
Brookes
Watts
Sweeney
Raymond
all a mile off being even close to selection

[Teflon]

Teflon very true regarding the above statement.
However can you honestly say that you are happy with the development that the playing group has shown to date under Lyon?
I for one am a bit worried that it seems that our players that have taken the next step or looked to be doing so, have in fact gone backwards this year! Isn't that a big worry. And just to clarify i am not even discussing GT here i am talking about RL's ability to get the most out of his players.
You only have to look at Leigh Matthews and the Lions and where they are right now. They have not had alot of draft picks and all of a sudden they are playing exciting footy and are in the eight.
It's not only about the high draft picks but being able to motivate and nuture them! Has Lyon shown that he can do that so far?????

Buckets Im not using GT as an example - it could be fred bloggs for all I care - the point I am making is that Lyons had effectively 1 real go at the draft and has not even finished his second year as our coach to judge this. IF by the end of the year we finish sluggish outside 8 - I like everyone - will question our development. But in 5 yrs under Grant Thomas the development I was looking for wasnt from the Nick Riewoldts (you know they can play) its those S Fishers/Gilbert types fo me that step up to be consistent elite top 22 players and IMO we have not had near enough come through in 5 yrs (especially mids) . I look at what malthouse gets out of a list that is noweher near the talent in its core we have and I know that REAL development occurs for us at the fringes and it just hasnt been forthcoming under Thomas.

Lyon has at least started to address some areas Ive been concerned about (hes not there yet) I think Armo, Geary in the midfield will help enormously, I believe recruiting King/gardiner in the ruck WILL allow a McEvoy to play some extended time in the 2's and learn and help our ruck wose. Thats a development strategy I like.

[Teflon]

What I am concerned about is not the very young players........

......but rather those players who have already been at the club for quite a few years but are not improving.


I mean those players who are reasonably delivering on their potential relative to the stage of their career is way too small a group.


It is these players not improving that is our real problem at present.

Now Lyon is the coach and so he definately has to carry the can for some of this (as he needs to get the most out of the group that he can)...but some also is that some players were overated in the past.

Good post. Sad to agree but I think your right.

[rexy]

I think that the topic of Lyons developement needs to be looked at on its merits not in comparison to GT.

I dont think either of them have developed enough talent compared to say Matthews, Malthouse, Craig.

GT tried to extend the careers of guys like Powell Pecket and Thompson instead of getting games into Mcqualter Fiora Gwilt Fergusson Brookes. It cost us an elimination final in 06 IMO.

Now Lyon has a revolving door policy with Raph Fiora Birss Rix Jones C Gardiner Gherig instead of a settled 18-20 with a couple of kids.

The premiers managed to play a first year player in their best 22 last year and this year have blooded Gamble and stokes very well. Collingwood have a plethera of young talent who are given a go over the likes of Licuria(now retired) and Holland in order to ensure that no-one thinks their spot is safe.

Craig builds beleif in his players when they come into the side and Leigh Matthews shows faith in the guys who give 100%.

We dont seem to have a solid formula for introducing talent, we make them wait too long when they are showing form in the 2s and then we dont seem to have any set criteria to judge them on. It seems that they have to be a stand out to cement there spot and then once it is cemented it is very hard to get dropped again.

[Teflon]

I think that the topic of Lyons developement needs to be looked at on its merits not in comparison to GT.

I dont think either of them have developed enough talent compared to say Matthews, Malthouse, Craig.

GT tried to extend the careers of guys like Powell Pecket and Thompson instead of getting games into Mcqualter Fiora Gwilt Fergusson Brookes. It cost us an elimination final in 06 IMO.

Now Lyon has a revolving door policy with Raph Fiora Birss Rix Jones C Gardiner Gherig instead of a settled 18-20 with a couple of kids.

The premiers managed to play a first year player in their best 22 last year and this year have blooded Gamble and stokes very well. Collingwood have a plethera of young talent who are given a go over the likes of Licuria(now retired) and Holland in order to ensure that no-one thinks their spot is safe.

Craig builds beleif in his players when they come into the side and Leigh Matthews shows faith in the guys who give 100%.

We dont seem to have a solid formula for introducing talent, we make them wait too long when they are showing form in the 2s and then we dont seem to have any set criteria to judge them on. It seems that they have to be a stand out to cement there spot and then once it is cemented it is very hard to get dropped again.

Thats an exceptional post - I agree.

Beleive me this has got NOTHING to do with GT but I truly am not convinced 1.5 yrs in Lyons had a chance to truly develop players when his sole focus appears to have been to overhaul and educate on a game plan.

That aside I agree with your key point around us having no formula for inducing talent. I often wondered why Brooks was played against a Brisbane etc but just not given a a sustained opportunity -I though he had talent to be honest.

Lyon to his credit IS (to the chagrin of many) persistring with Raph - at least should Raph not make it he will have had ample chance to do so. Ferguson now needs this same go along with Allen and Geary just has to be played IMO.

[saintsRrising]

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

Oh right...so development is measured simply by playing a player in the seniors?????

Most of your examples were like shootings stars...that bobbed up briefly....and then dimmed.

This was not player development...but a lucky dip approach. Initially from the Waldron era there was ample talent....but this soon dried up with little real new blood being developed. LACK of development of players squandered what had been a very good list.


So last year when we had heaps of injuries and had to play everyone except Raymond....that I supose was an example of good player development???


What your list shows is a steady example of players that were thrown to the wolves....were worked out by oppisition teams....and then fell by the wayside..

Developing players is firstly getting them ready to play AFL...and then hopefully making them better players.

You list Gwilt as starring in one game.....what good did it do him in terms of his development???

How did GT actually develop him???


How many rookies did GT develop??

Indeed did GT actually develop any players??????

Did he teach Kosi how to ruck.....???? No..despite nominating him as his No 1 ruckman.

Did he teach Gram how to tackle or spoil? No...so now opposition coaches exploit it.

What about Dal.....?? A brilliant mid and potential Top 5 playe in the AFL...but GT never bothered to develop an offensive side to his game.

Development is not drafting kids and then instantly have them become an AFL player. Selwoods and Riewoldts are nice....but are very few and far between.


Until recently our realtionship with casey wasa joke......and saints players were left to founder there rather than be developed.

Casey is now a useful team to develop our players at. St Kilda players are played where they need to be played to develop them.

Rookies were previously a joke.......

Now we develop them...and already have some likely future regular senior players.

[rexy]

Agree on Raph, with his age, draft position and physical attributes there seems to be more sense in giving him more chances than say a Fiora, and to be fair he has done this its just that Raph seems to be going backwards. Probably our best player in the losing prelim of 05 and 2.5 years on cant get near it?

Could Jack Steven play the role that Birss played on Friday night?

Could Geary have done a better job on Leon Davis?

Could Allen have presented as well as Gardiner or McEvoy contested more than G in the goal square?

[Teflon]

Agree on Raph, with his age, draft position and physical attributes there seems to be more sense in giving him more chances than say a Fiora, and to be fair he has done this its just that Raph seems to be going backwards. Probably our best player in the losing prelim of 05 and 2.5 years on cant get near it?

Could Jack Steven play the role that Birss played on Friday night?

Could Geary have done a better job on Leon Davis?

Could Allen have presented as well as Gardiner or McEvoy contested more than G in the goal square?

I think your being highly unfair with Raph and you know it. To suggest he played "a" good game 2.5 yrs ago and is now "going backwards" suggests he was something brilliant between this stellar game and this year. Facts are he has been dissapointing and NOT been able to force his way consistently into the top 22.

I thought Birss was ok Friday night. I dont think Id bring in 3 or 4 youngsters in rd 8 just yet at one time. Geary wouldve been better on Davis I agree so for me Id liked to have seen him play.

That aside, I was critical of Lyon re-hashing Jason Blake again. I thought he did an outstanding job on Cloke....does the coach get a plaudit at all for that or the improvement in our midfeild efforts not the least being the best game Ive seen from Ball in years????

[BAM! (shhhh)]

That aside, I was critical of Lyon re-hashing Jason Blake again. I thought he did an outstanding job on Cloke....does the coach get a plaudit at all for that or the improvement in our midfeild efforts not the least being the best game Ive seen from Ball in years????

I've been very critical of Lyon and remain unsold on him as a coach. That said and in light of the above, if he can get results out of an improved midfield via Ball, if he can get good service out of Jason Blake as a key back, then he absolutely will deserve credit for these things.

The number of things he does that I don't like during a game wouldn't be my hanging offense at the best of times (by being appointed, he's earned the right to screw up, by buying a television or ticket, I've only earned the right to whinge about it)... but given the number of different combinations of everything we see during a game, he's bound to find some good things to hang his hat on - find enough and he may get the results I crave to truly respect him as a coach.

I'm not too fussed about giving or denying of credit. When he gets us winning he's done his job.

[st.byron]

Player development hasnt happened for years - THATS THE POINT - development cant be looked at in 1.5yr isoltaion of a NEW coach FFS.

2002
Lenny Hayes establishes himself as a gun midfielder
Nick Dal Santo plays close to a full season in his first year
Troy Schwarze plays a good season at half back
Xavier Clarke plays 16 games in his first year
Heath Black is brought into the team and becomes a key player
Aussie Jones regains form after a crap few years
Brett Voss comes into the team and takes his footy up to a new level
Brett Moyle plays good football and looks to be a gun of the future
Stephen Milne comes into the team and immediately stamps himself as a regular goalkicker
Steven Baker establishes himself as a premier tagger of the competition

2003
Matt Maguire becomes a best 22 players after playing good football as a key forward, defender and even as a pinch-hitting ruckman
Stephen Powell comes into the team and plays excellent football
Aussie Jones continues his improvement
Nick Riewoldt becomes one of the best key forwards in the comp at age 20
Luke Ball plays 16 games and shows he is a star of the future
Leigh Fisher plays the last 5 games and earns a best 22 spot
Brendon Goddard plays 18 games in his first year
Xavier Clarke plays a full season and kicks multiple bags of goals
Leigh Montagna plays 12 games and earns a rising star nomination
Luke Penny comes into the team and immensely helps the structure of the defence
Alan Murray is elevated from the rookie list and plays a few excellent games

2004
Luke Ball continues his improvement and becomes and elite midfielder
Nick Dal Santo continues his improvement and becomes an elite midfielder
Aussie Jones continues his improvement and becomes and elite running defender
Fraser Gehrig is moved permanently to the forward line and wins the coleman medal
Matt Maguire establishes himself as one of the best CHBs in the league
Brent Guerra comes into the team and kicks 29 goals
Sam Fisher impresses in his 7 games at full back
Trent Knobel becomes a solid tap-ruckman
Nick Riewoldt continues his improvement and wins the AFLPA MVP

2005
Sam Fisher establishes himself in the best 22 with a good season as the third tall defender
Raph Clarke strings some good form together in his 16 games and earns a rising star nomination
Cain Ackland comes into the team and has a solid season, finishing 8th in the B&F
Justin Koschitzke dominates the competition for a brief stretch, showing that he can be a superstar
Jason Gram shows potential in his few games late in the season
James Gwilt walks into the team in round 22, gets a gig in the qualifying final and stars
Andrew McQualter shows excellent signs in his 7 games and looks to be a gun of the future
Steven Baker becomes the best tagger in the competition and wins the club B&F
Stephen Milne establishes himself as the best crumbing forward in the competition, kicking over 60 goals

2006
Jason Gram comes into the team and dominates as a running half back, finishing 2nd in the B&F
Sam Fisher continues his radical improvement and finishes 3rd in the B&F
Leigh Montagna establishes himself in the best 22
Leigh Fisher returns and plays excellent football in defence
Brendon Goddard improves drastically and becomes one of the most valuable players in the team
Aaron Fiora strings together his best season, playing 17 games

2007
Sam Gilbert improves hugely and has a good season as a utility
Aaron Fiora improves on his 2006 season and plays every game
Jason Blake finds some extra confidence and plays every game
Jayden Attard has an ok season as a tagger

2008
David Armitage comes into the team and looks to be a star of the future
Anything else?

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

wow MSG, that's quite an effort you've made there. I think though you're mistaken to lay the blame at Lyon;s door for lack of development. The rot really started in late 2005 through 2006.
Look at the list of players you've noted as developing in 2005. You mentioned nine players. Of those Raph Clarke, Ackland, McQualter, Gwilt and Koschitzke have not gone forward since that time. Only one of them has a regular first 22 gig and he's a GOP, nothing more.
2006 - Grammy plays a great year, Sam Fish continues to develop and BJ starts to show why he was a #1 draft pick. Apart from that, Fiora and Leigh Fisher are two you've mentioned and I think you're being generous in including them as significant improvers in 2006.
We had already started to go backwards in 2006. The lack of development didn't start with Lyon. It was already under way, magnified by poor list management in Thomas' last two years.

[st.byron]

It doesn't help when GT's last two years at the draft table (3rd and 4th year players now) have produced possibly one player of a decent AFL standard (Gilbert) or is that RL's fault that he couldn't turn the following into guns
McQualter
McGough
Ackland
Gwilt
Rix
Raymond
Sweeney
Watts
......................
This whole post of yours is idiotic, i mean it must have taken an absolute genius to turn guys like Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo etc into decent AFL quality players.
Where was your mate Brooks?
You must be a good judge on talent, i know you rated him fairly highly. How the hell did we fail to develop that superstar?

Hard at it , whilst I think you're being a bit harsh on msg, I completely agree with you about recruiting under Thomas. What a bunch of nothings we finished up with from 2004 and 2005 under Thomas, apart from Gilbert.

[Otiman]

Ackland played one good season
Rix gave us some height in the ruck when we were being smashed in that department.
Gwilt played two good games (vs Hall, and the semi vs Adelaide)

The rest you couldn't make a case for.