Lyon- Player Improvement?

[Animal Enclosure]

Apologies if this has already been discussed (I know how sensitive some are about multiple posts).

First of all I was initially very happy with Ross Lyon's appointment. He seemed ready to go & really make a tactical difference as well as reinvigorate a list that had stagnated. The jury is still locked in debate over the first point & he certainly has changed personnel list wise. What I am querying is the improvement in the remaining players from 2006.

During an in depth chat at the Carron before Friday's game, a group of struggled to nominate more that a handful of players who are clearly better players under the Lyon regime. Sam Fisher, Sam Gilbert and Jason Blake were the only 3 that we mutually agreed on. We all agreed that Fisher & Gilbert were likely to improve anyway while Blake has thrived playing away from a position that he was not suited.

What an indictment on the coaching staff at our football club that out of a list of almost 40 players only 3 are clearly better players than they were 2 years ago.

I acknowledge that injury has restricted Luke Ball and a few others but the terrible loss of form & confidence is endemic across the list.

The style of play has severely restricted some of our absolute stars while inflexible and uninspired coaching leaves out of form players in the same positions week in week out.

If the current trend continues then at very least the assistant coaching staff needs a massive overhaul. While I can't imagine Lyon getting the flick this year even if we miss the finals, 2009 looms at his absolute last chance. With the Gold Coast getting draft picks on a silver platter it will be a long & painful rebuild for teams finishing low in 2010 & beyond.

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

[milney044]

It's hard to say because last year i thought Jason Gram showed big signs under Ross however this year has shown very little. The same can be said for Sam Gilbert and Aaron Fiora. As mentioned in another post, I think Lenny, Milne and Ball have been the only ones to improve so far this year, and for Lenny and Ball it's because they are getting over their injuries.
So excluding a few, the team as a whole has lost something, i don't know if you can put it down to the coach but there's something missing. We seem to have lost the spark, mind you despite more wins in 2006 i thought we were quite a boring side then too.

But it is only Round 8, maybe there is still lots of individual improvement to come? we hope.

[Saint Bev]

I would have thought it was early days yet, only his second season and not even half way through. Lets not forget, first head coach position and he had to start from scratch. If David Armitage continues the way he is, surely he could be added to the list, certainly looks promising. Maybe also add Banger, not so much for improving but being given the opportunity to continue playing. Others thought he should retire years ago

[Teflon]

I would have thought it was early days yet, only his second season and not even half way through. Lets not forget, first head coach position and he had to start from scratch. If David Armitage continues the way he is, surely he could be added to the list, certainly looks promising. Maybe also add Banger, not so much for improving but being given the opportunity to continue playing. Others thought he should retire years ago

Your a voicde of reason among many looking to blame Lyon for lots.

Hes absolutely responsible for aspects of the way we are playing right now but FFS not even half way into his coaching tenure he all of a sudden he hasnt developed players?

Could I suggest player development may have stagnated (along with the list a season or 2 earlier??????) Were players really going forward when we finished 8th in 2006?

Id like to look at this year, asses truly whose capable of being developed (removing those who have struggled with injury) and then assess.

That said.....so far I like the look of Geary, Armitage, Stevens (still early but he has something IMO), use of Harvey, M Gardiner (a few more games like Friday and we are way in front of our investment outlay for him IMO).

Jury's still out for Lyon on this.

[rodgerfox]

Others thought he should retire years ago

Really?

Who?

[Saint Bev]

Others thought he should retire years ago

Really?

Who?

Grant Thomas, stated more than one.

[Zippy]

I agree.

But, bear in mind, player's aren't improving ATM because of grant thomas's influence a couple of years ago

Also, I think developing players'll have a better chance to show their stuff when they're in a team that's clicking and looking good, rather than a team that's still only firing on three cylinders.

If we play a bit better as a team (and I was encouraged by our midfield's solid performance against the pies - we just need to get the forwards functioning now), I think everyone will start to look better.

[Hard at it]

Others thought he should retire years ago

Really?

Who?

Pretty straight forward i would have thought

[Saint Bev]

I would have thought it was early days yet, only his second season and not even half way through. Lets not forget, first head coach position and he had to start from scratch. If David Armitage continues the way he is, surely he could be added to the list, certainly looks promising. Maybe also add Banger, not so much for improving but being given the opportunity to continue playing. Others thought he should retire years ago

Your a voicde of reason among many looking to blame Lyon for lots.

Hes absolutely responsible for aspects of the way we are playing right now but FFS not even half way into his coaching tenure he all of a sudden he hasnt developed players?

Could I suggest player development may have stagnated (along with the list a season or 2 earlier??????) Were players really going forward when we finished 8th in 2006?

Id like to look at this year, asses truly whose capable of being developed (removing those who have struggled with injury) and then assess.

That said.....so far I like the look of Geary, Armitage, Stevens (still early but he has something IMO), use of Harvey, M Gardiner (a few more games like Friday and we are way in front of our investment outlay for him IMO).

Jury's still out for Lyon on this.

The jury's still out for me also, definately some players are showing alot of promise, but how much input Lyon has on them at Casey, I wouldn't have a clue.

[rodgerfox]

Others thought he should retire years ago

Really?

Who?

Grant Thomas, stated more than one.

Did he?

[Teflon]

I agree.

But, bear in mind, player's aren't improving ATM because of grant thomas's influence a couple of years ago

Also, I think developing players'll have a better chance to show their stuff when they're in a team that's clicking and looking good, rather than a team that's still only firing on three cylinders.

If we play a bit better as a team (and I was encouraged by our midfield's solid performance against the pies - we just need to get the forwards functioning now), I think everyone will start to look better.

So player development in the context of a group many have said are flag contenders since 04?

Player development hasnt happened for years - THATS THE POINT - development cant be looked at in 1.5yr isoltaion of a NEW coach FFS.

[Shaggy]

I agree.

But, bear in mind, player's aren't improving ATM because of grant thomas's influence a couple of years ago

Also, I think developing players'll have a better chance to show their stuff when they're in a team that's clicking and looking good, rather than a team that's still only firing on three cylinders.

If we play a bit better as a team (and I was encouraged by our midfield's solid performance against the pies - we just need to get the forwards functioning now), I think everyone will start to look better.

So player development in the context of a group many have said are flag contenders since 04?

Player development hasnt happened for years - THATS THE POINT - development cant be looked at in 1.5yr isoltaion of a NEW coach FFS.

Thats not true Teflon.

Every year we have player improvement. And certainly during 2004-5 it was amazing how many players were at their peak (not in terms of age but in terms of performance).

[Teflon]

I agree.

But, bear in mind, player's aren't improving ATM because of grant thomas's influence a couple of years ago

Also, I think developing players'll have a better chance to show their stuff when they're in a team that's clicking and looking good, rather than a team that's still only firing on three cylinders.

If we play a bit better as a team (and I was encouraged by our midfield's solid performance against the pies - we just need to get the forwards functioning now), I think everyone will start to look better.

So player development in the context of a group many have said are flag contenders since 04?

Player development hasnt happened for years - THATS THE POINT - development cant be looked at in 1.5yr isoltaion of a NEW coach FFS.

Thats not true Teflon.

Every year we have player improvement. And certainly during 2004-5 it was amazing how many players were at their peak (not in terms of age but in terms of performance).

Sorry Shaggy - Let me define what I look for in player development.

We know Nick Riewoldt will develop, same Dal Santo, Ball (uninjured ofcourse) fits same mould. What Im interested in is the "second tier" and bottom level development that win you flags - not much in this space for the past 3 yrs for mine.

Its also worthwhile remembering that most player development takes place in the first 3 or so years - the curve is steep. Id suggest Lyon hasnt had the upside of a "Nick Riewoldt" development to hang his hat on.

Im not making an excuse but pointing out that while Thomas has "stars" in the side in those eraly years - not a great deal came through at the middle bottom end of the list and that its just way to early to assess Lyon on this issue yet.

[mad saint guy]

Player development hasnt happened for years - THATS THE POINT - development cant be looked at in 1.5yr isoltaion of a NEW coach FFS.

2002
Lenny Hayes establishes himself as a gun midfielder
Nick Dal Santo plays close to a full season in his first year
Troy Schwarze plays a good season at half back
Xavier Clarke plays 16 games in his first year
Heath Black is brought into the team and becomes a key player
Aussie Jones regains form after a crap few years
Brett Voss comes into the team and takes his footy up to a new level
Brett Moyle plays good football and looks to be a gun of the future
Stephen Milne comes into the team and immediately stamps himself as a regular goalkicker
Steven Baker establishes himself as a premier tagger of the competition

2003
Matt Maguire becomes a best 22 players after playing good football as a key forward, defender and even as a pinch-hitting ruckman
Stephen Powell comes into the team and plays excellent football
Aussie Jones continues his improvement
Nick Riewoldt becomes one of the best key forwards in the comp at age 20
Luke Ball plays 16 games and shows he is a star of the future
Leigh Fisher plays the last 5 games and earns a best 22 spot
Brendon Goddard plays 18 games in his first year
Xavier Clarke plays a full season and kicks multiple bags of goals
Leigh Montagna plays 12 games and earns a rising star nomination
Luke Penny comes into the team and immensely helps the structure of the defence
Alan Murray is elevated from the rookie list and plays a few excellent games

2004
Luke Ball continues his improvement and becomes and elite midfielder
Nick Dal Santo continues his improvement and becomes an elite midfielder
Aussie Jones continues his improvement and becomes and elite running defender
Fraser Gehrig is moved permanently to the forward line and wins the coleman medal
Matt Maguire establishes himself as one of the best CHBs in the league
Brent Guerra comes into the team and kicks 29 goals
Sam Fisher impresses in his 7 games at full back
Trent Knobel becomes a solid tap-ruckman
Nick Riewoldt continues his improvement and wins the AFLPA MVP

2005
Sam Fisher establishes himself in the best 22 with a good season as the third tall defender
Raph Clarke strings some good form together in his 16 games and earns a rising star nomination
Cain Ackland comes into the team and has a solid season, finishing 8th in the B&F
Justin Koschitzke dominates the competition for a brief stretch, showing that he can be a superstar
Jason Gram shows potential in his few games late in the season
James Gwilt walks into the team in round 22, gets a gig in the qualifying final and stars
Andrew McQualter shows excellent signs in his 7 games and looks to be a gun of the future
Steven Baker becomes the best tagger in the competition and wins the club B&F
Stephen Milne establishes himself as the best crumbing forward in the competition, kicking over 60 goals

2006
Jason Gram comes into the team and dominates as a running half back, finishing 2nd in the B&F
Sam Fisher continues his radical improvement and finishes 3rd in the B&F
Leigh Montagna establishes himself in the best 22
Leigh Fisher returns and plays excellent football in defence
Brendon Goddard improves drastically and becomes one of the most valuable players in the team
Aaron Fiora strings together his best season, playing 17 games

2007
Sam Gilbert improves hugely and has a good season as a utility
Aaron Fiora improves on his 2006 season and plays every game
Jason Blake finds some extra confidence and plays every game
Jayden Attard has an ok season as a tagger

2008
David Armitage comes into the team and looks to be a star of the future
Anything else?

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

[Shaggy]

Thanks for the work MSG.

Its obvious the lack of progress we are currently making.

IMO if you focus on the negative you become negative which I think our players have

[Hard at it]

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

It doesn't help when GT's last two years at the draft table (3rd and 4th year players now) have produced possibly one player of a decent AFL standard (Gilbert) or is that RL's fault that he couldn't turn the following into guns
McQualter
McGough
Ackland
Gwilt
Rix
Raymond
Sweeney
Watts
That list shows he has had plenty to work with doesn't it.

Aaron Fiora strings together his best season, playing 17 games

Would have thought Fiora had by far his best yr last season, or does that go against your argument.

Leigh Montagna establishes himself in the best 22

Why not put this in 2007, pretty sure he developed immensely last season from average into a very good onballer.

Sam Fisher continues his radical improvement and finishes 3rd in the B&F

Why not put this in 2007. He finished 2nd in the B&F so obviously RL must have worked wonders also.
This whole post of yours is idiotic, i mean it must have taken an absolute genius to turn guys like Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo etc into decent AFL quality players.
Where was your mate Brooks?
You must be a good judge on talent, i know you rated him fairly highly. How the hell did we fail to develop that superstar?

[Boppa]

We never had such little improvement until Lyon took over. Every year we had a few players emerging from nowhere and a few reasonable players taking the next step and becoming guns. Under Lyon we've just had a couple of kids improve in their second year and two fringe players get more game time.

It doesn't help when GT's last two years at the draft table (3rd and 4th year players now) have produced possibly one player of a decent AFL standard (Gilbert) or is that RL's fault that he couldn't turn the following into guns
McQualter
McGough
Ackland
Gwilt
Rix
Raymond
Sweeney
Watts
That list shows he has had plenty to work with doesn't it.

Aaron Fiora strings together his best season, playing 17 games

Would have thought Fiora had by far his best yr last season, or does that go against your argument.

Leigh Montagna establishes himself in the best 22

Why not put this in 2007, pretty sure he developed immensely last season from average into a very good onballer.

Sam Fisher continues his radical improvement and finishes 3rd in the B&F

Why not put this in 2007. He finished 2nd in the B&F so obviously RL must have worked wonders also.
This whole post of yours is idiotic, i mean it must have taken an absolute genius to turn guys like Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo etc into decent AFL quality players.
Where was your mate Brooks?
You must be a good judge on talent, i know you rated him fairly highly. How the hell did we fail to develop that superstar?

It always makes me laugh on this site how people distort things to back up their arguments. As you have pointed out Lyon was hardly handed a bunch of elite 3rd to 4th year players to work with.
I find it funny that Montagna gets a mention in both 2003 and 2006 yet his break through season i would have thought was last season.

[Shaggy]

MSG's point is quite valid. What or whom has RL improved on field? I grant you Monty but fair go its pathetic. We have 18 players now close or at their peak but majority playing below it.

Maybe you are not worried but I am sure RL is.

[JeffDunne]

I raised this issue a couple of weeks ago and I'm interested to read that others have quantified what was a gut feel.

TBH, someone who used to be close to the club asked me this question during the Port Adelaide game. I was struggling to come up with one name that had improved.

It will be interesting to revisit this question at the end of the season especially if we miss the 8 and we're looking at someone to rebuild the list.

[rodgerfox]

Andrew Thompson, Stephen Powell and Justin Peckett have improved dramatically under Lyon.

[Dan Warna]

I haven't seen us play disciplined football since we beat sydney.

since then we've been playing on raw talent.

heck we nearly bludgeoned Sydney on Friday and frankly we showed more individual efforts and talent than they did and nearly won the game.

had we won, ball and dal santo would ahve got top votes.

we played as a collection of individuals, not as a team, and have done for MUCH of the last 18 months.

we have shown how close and disciplined we CAN be, and shown how devestating we CAN be, but the rest of the time we just run around and have fun.

[Buckets]

MSG i reckon you summed up what alot of people are thinking at the present time. There are some on here who see constructive criticism as stabbing the club in the back i don't agree i think if we are to improve and move forward we must be willing to look at all facets of the club.
The fact that there has been little improvement this year so far shows that things need to be done differently and that does not mean that Lyon has to go...I would rather see him prove me wrong and take this team all the way, no more hiding behind the fact that the players are following orders, have a good look at how he operates and change the things that needs to be changed!
Hell those who say we should just accept that the players are no good and that we are going backwards, i don't agree with...God have a look at how the Lions have resurged this year and they have only been out of it for a couple of seasons not as if they needed a complete clean out!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Fantastic post MSG. Even adding in Montagna and Fiora to 2007, it quantifies the criticism very well. The argument of "what's he had to work with" is certainly valid, so the other side that needs equal attention is players that have gone backward or stagnated across a similar period.

I think it's interesting because in the last 18 months, we've seen a much more intuitive development structure put in place as the link to Casey is strengthened and players appear to get roles based more on what they'd do in the AFL... over the long term, we'd expect to see a steadier influx of fresh players, but to date, it hasn't happened.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

MSG really you can type up all kinds of stuff doesnt make it correct or a true indication of what really has improved since RL came along

for instance you forgot to mentiong the ruck stocks now being a lot stronger then they have ever been , you forgot to mention cutting off of dead wood by the likes of Brooks you hve understated the emergance of Armo , the improvement in Sam Fisher , Goddard , Joey and the impending rise of Allen ,Mcevoy and Geerey.

[mad saint guy]

MSG really you can type up all kinds of stuff doesnt make it correct or a true indication of what really has improved since RL came along

What is this thread about? Players improving under Lyon. I pointed out that before Lyon was coach, we consistently had young players getting game time and fringe players becoming key members of the team. As soon as Lyon came to the club that stopped. And the scoreboard results have followed suit.