Brendan Goddard - has he lived up to expectations??

[Dan Warna]

I wouldn't say he hodge and cooney were that far ahead of goddard.

cooney plays pretty much the midfield and racks up a lot of possessions, and plays a lot as a midfielder HFF

when goddard did play centre / wing / HFF his possession rate went up dramatically to when he plays a negating role in the HBF.

At the end of goddard 250 plus game career I think he'll stand as one of the best players through st kilda.

[sunsaint]

Ok people.... to clarify.... I'm not asking you to compare to the top ten list of his draft year....

I'm asking you.... do you believe he's lived up to the expectations you had of him based on all the hype prior to his drafting??

The only hype was that he could't go to Carlton because of there antics, if I remember correctly........and he barracked for them.

Which is why I always leaned towards Salopek in that draft for the reason he barracked for the Saints. He ripped us apart two weeks ago.
In a word no.
I had to bite my tongue when he went down with the knee, and I hoped he would come back good as new. But the flaws in his game, will inhibit him from becoming one of the games greats.
I want him in the side every week, he has one of the best kicks at the club. Which is why he has carved out a career as the loose man in defense. Give him the ball with lots of space and he will use it to advantage.
But he has a chip on his shoulder, is slow, and he lacks spatial awareness.

[rodgerfox]

No.

[plugger66]

I wouldn't say he hodge and cooney were that far ahead of goddard.

cooney plays pretty much the midfield and racks up a lot of possessions, and plays a lot as a midfielder HFF

when goddard did play centre / wing / HFF his possession rate went up dramatically to when he plays a negating role in the HBF.

At the end of goddard 250 plus game career I think he'll stand as one of the best players through st kilda.

He plays HBF because that is his best position. He hasnt really graduated to a midfield role like Hodge did. Of course this may have happened had he not done his leg. Cooney has improved every year to now and is one of the favourites for the brownlow. I suppose one way we can see how BJ is rated at the Saints is his finishing positions in the B&F. Does anyone have those.

[rodgerfox]

I wouldn't say he hodge and cooney were that far ahead of goddard.

cooney plays pretty much the midfield and racks up a lot of possessions, and plays a lot as a midfielder HFF

when goddard did play centre / wing / HFF his possession rate went up dramatically to when he plays a negating role in the HBF.

At the end of goddard 250 plus game career I think he'll stand as one of the best players through st kilda.

He plays HBF because that is his best position. He hasnt really graduated to a midfield role like Hodge did. Of course this may have happened had he not done his leg. Cooney has improved every year to now and is one of the favourites for the brownlow. I suppose one way we can see how BJ is rated at the Saints is his finishing positions in the B&F. Does anyone have those.

BJ is a tad soft.

Not a coward, but he's not hard enough.

Gets pushed aside too easy and run sideways too much.

[Dan Warna]

just some stats on goddard for 2006:

18th for most kicks
9th for most marks

a 60metre kick for goal against freo in 06 (and note the kick passed OVER the TOP of the sticks)

averaging 18.8 disposals per game from the HBF, with 7.4 marks per game and 5 goals in 2008.

in 2006 he averaged nearly 22 possessions and 8 marks and 3 tackles per game, as a defender...

a pure stats comparison between goddard and hodge has hodge about 4 possessions per game ahead and more goals, but goddard has hodge covered in the air with 3 more marks per game. (hodge is 12 months older with 22 more games)

a pure stats comparison with adam cooney has goddard and cooney at the SAME age, witih cooney dominating with 6 more disposals per game, again well behind on marks.

both cooney and hodge play midfield, and goddard plays defence, and very few defenders get the the possession counts of their running team mates.

if someone offered you a "an 8 mark per game, 20 possession 2 tackle per game running player with a 65 metre kick at age 22 who you can throw into the middle at a pinch for a 30 possession game you interested?'

[mad saint guy]

was hitting his straps till injury kicked in, but has been a solid contributor from his early days.

I dont think goddard was ever 'carried' but 2006 and 2007 he was really blossoming.

BJ was carried in 04 and 05. Even GT came out and said that they were willing to put up with sub-par performances from Goddard because they had faith that it would be best for the club in the long term.

on the other hand mcintosh was a disaster till 2007, and really had North fans scratching their heads why he was on the list.

you can imagine what st kilda fans would have been saying about mcintosh for 4 years on the list for about 11 games.

No matter how many times you say that, it will never become true. McIntosh only played one game in his first three years, but most teams don't want to play ruckmen until they are at least 21 or 22. In 2006 McIntosh played 17 games and showed that he was going to be a gun. Obviously in 2007 he became their number one ruckman and is now one of the best in the comp.

There was nothing abnormal about McIntosh's transition to the seniors.

[Dan Warna]

I wouldn't say he hodge and cooney were that far ahead of goddard.

cooney plays pretty much the midfield and racks up a lot of possessions, and plays a lot as a midfielder HFF

when goddard did play centre / wing / HFF his possession rate went up dramatically to when he plays a negating role in the HBF.

At the end of goddard 250 plus game career I think he'll stand as one of the best players through st kilda.

He plays HBF because that is his best position. He hasnt really graduated to a midfield role like Hodge did. Of course this may have happened had he not done his leg. Cooney has improved every year to now and is one of the favourites for the brownlow. I suppose one way we can see how BJ is rated at the Saints is his finishing positions in the B&F. Does anyone have those.

I'd argue he hasn't got a midfield role because its been perceived we have better players to run through the midfield than goddard.

its also argued that our defence is weak and thus goddard, as a superbly talented player, is required to curb his own aggressive abilities for the good of the team.

Stan Alves said that frankie pecket would have been a great wingman if we didn't have winmar, aussie jones, damen shaw and other players ahead of him for that role.

I would say goddard is put in defence because 1. we have good midfielders, 2. we need good players in defence too.

were we say port with a surplus of defenders or WCE with a shortage of fowards you'd throw goddard up the pointy end in a flash, but we have some real talent int he forward line.

[plugger66]

just some stats on goddard for 2006:

18th for most kicks
9th for most marks

a 60metre kick for goal against freo in 06 (and note the kick passed OVER the TOP of the sticks)

averaging 18.8 disposals per game from the HBF, with 7.4 marks per game and 5 goals in 2008.

in 2006 he averaged nearly 22 possessions and 8 marks and 3 tackles per game, as a defender...

a pure stats comparison between goddard and hodge has hodge about 4 possessions per game ahead and more goals, but goddard has hodge covered in the air with 3 more marks per game. (hodge is 12 months older with 22 more games)

a pure stats comparison with adam cooney has goddard and cooney at the SAME age, witih cooney dominating with 6 more disposals per game, again well behind on marks.

both cooney and hodge play midfield, and goddard plays defence, and very few defenders get the the possession counts of their running team mates.

if someone offered you a "an 8 mark per game, 20 possession 2 tackle per game running player with a 65 metre kick at age 22 who you can throw into the middle at a pinch for a 30 possession game you interested?'

Well I would take Hodge and Cooney over BJ at the moment or at any stage of their careers so far. Hard at it onballers are harder to find than HBF any day. A HBF in this day and age can easily average plenty of possesions. Look at Joel Bowden. That is similar to how BJ plays.

[Dan Warna]

was hitting his straps till injury kicked in, but has been a solid contributor from his early days.

I dont think goddard was ever 'carried' but 2006 and 2007 he was really blossoming.

BJ was carried in 04 and 05. Even GT came out and said that they were willing to put up with sub-par performances from Goddard because they had faith that it would be best for the club in the long term.

on the other hand mcintosh was a disaster till 2007, and really had North fans scratching their heads why he was on the list.

you can imagine what st kilda fans would have been saying about mcintosh for 4 years on the list for about 11 games.

No matter how many times you say that, it will never become true. McIntosh only played one game in his first three years, but most teams don't want to play ruckmen until they are at least 21 or 22. In 2006 McIntosh played 17 games and showed that he was going to be a gun. Obviously in 2007 he became their number one ruckman and is now one of the best in the comp.

There was nothing abnormal about McIntosh's transition to the seniors.

Mcintosh was drafted in 02, he didn't play 03, 04 and got 1 game in 05.

in 2006 he averaged 10 possessions and 8 hitouts per game, not what you'd call good. His reserves form was ordinary and he was being lambasted as lazy and soft.

Not many predicted in 06 that mcintosh was going to be a gun in 07, he was barely passed pedestrian and considered soft.

[Richter]

BJ's 22 and just had a year out following a knee reco - prior to which he was showing a real presence.

Next step up needs to be taken now. But he must be allowed to make that step by team selection - must NOT be used as a fallback key defender. He has too much offensively to be sacrificed like this. Rather Gwlit or even Blake to fill one of the key defensive posts than BJ.

[Seaford_Saint]

Richter... I think you've hit the nail on head.....

I also feel BJ is being held back from developing into something more than a next generation Joel Bowden, by not being released further forwards.

I actually think with harder work in the pre-season he could take on a Kouta-type role in the middle.... big strong body who can bust packs, run all day, kick 50+ and create havoc with mis-matches pushing into the forward line.

Playing loose man in defence long term will mean he never has the opportunity to be regarded as an out&out champion of his era... the respect just doesn't come with that position / role... it would however mean he would probably make it to 300 games, as the punishment on the body is much less

Richter - sorry but can't have anything to do with your comment of Blake taking over his role in the back-half..... Christ, I would have to double my alcohol intake during games to sit down and watch that....

[hotdish]

Would love for Gilbo to take over Goddard's role and he can play on the wing.

One of best kicks in the AFL, would love to see him kicking goals off the wing and hitting 50 metre stab passes to our forwards.

Is the top 5 utilities in the AFL. Can literally play every position bar ruck.

[Dan Warna]

even if some say he is a soft receiver in the back line, top 10 for marks even in a defencive line in 2006 is damn damn impressive.

you might get 1 or 2 easy marks in a game, but pretty much any decent coach will zone in on you and stop you feed. I do remember BJ getting a lot of marks in packs, backing into players, throwing himself in front of opposition forwards and getting rag dolled etc.

sure you might have a game where they don't zone you up, but its not going to happen often.

and secondly that kick 5 metres outside the centre square shows exactly how dangerous he can be if he's allowed to play football.

I kind of get the feeling BJ is a Bugatti Veyron being driven by a series of grandma's who are too scared to put the foot down.

even now I think that with tactics and strategies, and what not, teams are forgetting how to play football, and Geelong in 07 and WCE in 05 and brisbane in 01/02/03 are probably teams that really let their players talents loose and explore what they are capable off.

from 06 (maybe through injury) 07 (maybe through injury and maybe through preconceptions) and 08 we havent' let our boys loose.

[Ghost Like]

Yes but my only expectation was that it would p1ss off Carlton supporters. Fortunately the boy can also play footy, has a great footy brain, is single mindedly determined and is a leader. So for me he came ith a few bonuses.

[plugger66]

even if some say he is a soft receiver in the back line, top 10 for marks even in a defencive line in 2006 is damn damn impressive.

you might get 1 or 2 easy marks in a game, but pretty much any decent coach will zone in on you and stop you feed. I do remember BJ getting a lot of marks in packs, backing into players, throwing himself in front of opposition forwards and getting rag dolled etc.

sure you might have a game where they don't zone you up, but its not going to happen often.

and secondly that kick 5 metres outside the centre square shows exactly how dangerous he can be if he's allowed to play football.

I kind of get the feeling BJ is a Bugatti Veyron being driven by a series of grandma's who are too scared to put the foot down.

even now I think that with tactics and strategies, and what not, teams are forgetting how to play football, and Geelong in 07 and WCE in 05 and brisbane in 01/02/03 are probably teams that really let their players talents loose and explore what they are capable off.

from 06 (maybe through injury) 07 (maybe through injury and maybe through preconceptions) and 08 we havent' let our boys loose.

What about Leigh Fisher taking 17 against Hawthorn. Backmen get most of their marks uncontested these days.

[Lynch Beast]

Wisbey Profile on Goddard

have one on Salopek as well if your interested

[quote]Brendan Goddard

188/80, right-foot dual-sided, bottom-age.

6'2" ruckrover-type midfielder who can play tall or small. No obvious fault. Clearly #1 pick. Ready for AFL 2003.

Style like Michael Tuck (but better kicking style).

"Genuine footballer - a ball magnet who does his job extremely well without fuss and is wherever the ball is", rather than a spectacular "magic" type. Is consummate all-round professional footballer – “the footballer’s’ footballerâ€

[saintsRrising]

Well Wiseby really nailed that one right!!!

[Enrico_Misso]

I also liked his leadership qualities in defence.

He was becoming our defensive general.
Marshalling the troops.
Giving orders to players.
Leading by example.
Cool and calm.

I remember in one of his first games, during a stoppage he directed Riewoldt to where he should have been - big call for a kid against an emerging champion.

Was just emerging as the superstar we all knew he would be before the injury.

Let him work his way back this year.
2009 will allow us to see his star shine.

[Eastern]

If anything the timing of this thread is poor. We all know that it takes almost a full year back from a reco before you are back to where you were.

BJ was on the cusp of exploding onto the scene (in other fans eyes) when he went down with his knee. His form since his return has exceeded all expectations.

BJ was one of those kids who took a little longer than most to adapt from playing schoolboy footy to plaing AFL. He was really starting to look like he believed that he belonged when he went down. I am hopeful that he gets back to his pre-reco form during the 2nd 1/2 of this year and shows us his full worth in 2009 !!

[St DAC]

The retrospective rating of draft picks relative to other years is really unfair to the particular player. They don't pick themselves, or talk up the expectations thrust upon them. The question posed in this thread is IMO wrong; it really should be:

"Did we pick the best player available in that draft for the club given we had the first choice?".

And the answer is in the form of the other players in that draft. Who from the 2002 draft has played consistently better footy than BJ over that period?

Wells? Better at times, but has been inconsistent (although is a more attractive/flashy player to watch than BJ)

Salopeck? Has had many injury issues, and only in the past couple of seasons has showed his wares. Is a good player in a good team.

Mackintosh? Nothing in his first few seasons, and plays a completely different position and style.

McVeigh? A decent but not great player.

Mackie? A decent but not great player. Plays a similar role and style to BJ in a better team.

No one else springs to mind from that draft. BJ is at least as good value over the journey as any of these, and IMO there is no standout from that list who could be rated as obviously better than BJ, so on balance I'd say we got it pretty right.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

plugger you are insulting bj by comparing him to bowden

bowden is the defintion of a soft c**k...bj is an agressive angry footballer

bowden runs around and never enters contests...bj does...even first game back after a reco he throws himself in there

bowden cant kick yet he gets a tonne of the ball...bj can kick he gets the ball but i wish we could find ways to get him more without the added attention

[killa_gram]

As good a player as BJ is (and he is a very good player), he hasn't lived up to my expectations just yet. I was under the impression he was going to be an out and out gun. Perhaps my expectations were too high? I think his situation is a bit like Tambling as so much in that all the Tigers fans had huge expectations of him and although he is a good player IMO, he is not the championm the Tigers thought he would be.

[Dan Warna]

wrt 17 marks, I thought that was sam fisher, but aside from that, the point with BJ is he does average more than 1 contested mark a game AND cosistently gets his 8 marks a game, not just the odd spanker, and he has been doing it for the past 3 1/2 years or so.

even dispite being 'carried' in the early part of his career, his 'career' average is 7.2 marks per game, he also achieves a substantial amount of hard ball gets and contested marks.

I think because of his nature and his style and the positioins imposed on him, folks really undervalue his contribution.

I'd be suprised if there were players with 10 years experience who contribute on the field what BJ does consistently.

and I can't remember him being the 'goto' man out of defence for the relatively easy touches, its usually been gram or sam fisher as the first receiver out of defence.

[matrix]

i thought he was no good for about a year and a half.....
then he started to do what apparently someone saw in him before he was drafted.
then my opinions of him changed to a more positive side.

then the poor bastard did a knee.

id prob trade him for cooney but other than that i think he is vital to our team.
seeing him up the ground a bit when we finally manage to get a stable defense would be nice.
bombing goals from 50 out, or hitting our FF on the tits with a stab pass