Let's face it, it's time to rebuild.

[saintsRrising]

Do not believe Ross has decided to top up. In his 1st draft we drafted kids, in his 2nd draft (07) he drafted another 3 kids, used our 2nd pick for two 23 year old premiership players and used pick 90 for King & Charlie. Not sure Ross has missed on much young talent given the recent draft was not all that strong. Has also used the rookie draft better than any other previous saints coaches. List wise i think he has made the right decisions.

Well he has topped up...but in a limited (in terms of cost) and very commercial and controlled way and very economically.

He has by and large kept his best picks for kids.

2007....Basically got Birss and M Gardiner for pick 43. Also took Clarke in the PSD...but unless you have the first or second picks the PSD is basically a "free" pick.

Rookies produced 3 players who have gained senior games....with Eddy still having a chance ((and you would not normally expect a return from rookies within a year))

2008... Basically got Schneider, King, Dempster and Charlie for pick 26

Rookies...to early to say..particularly with the injuries that have hit them.


McEvoy and the underage Steven (who looks very likely) and Eljay were all about long term investments in our list.

One could say in hindsight that getting GTrain back may not have been the best use...but he was late in the draft.


Importantly with RL's picks you note several things;

*that he has actively sought to address the many flaws and weaknesses in our list that had built up....and which given the age of some of players was about to get dramatically worse (ie midfield).

* that while he has traded...that he has gained quite extraordinarily good value for the picks used. indeed many non St Kilda people rated the saints as the best overall performed in last years combined trade/draft.

*that while he has sought immediate improvements for the list...that he has also achieved a good stockpile of young talent (only Howard now looking like a pick where the price paid is out of kilter with his current perceived worth)

[Teflon]

Has Lyon "topped" up or simply recruited ti fill obvious holes? aka ruck?

[mad saint guy]

Has Lyon "topped" up or simply recruited ti fill obvious holes? aka ruck?

Players recruited from AFL clubs under Lyon

Shane Birss
Michael Gardiner
Matthew Ferguson
Matthew Clarke
James Wall (r)
Jayden Attard (r)
Adam Schneider
Sean Dempster
Steven King
Charlie Gardiner
Fraser Gehrig
Andrew McQualter (r)

There's 12 recycled players (3 rookies) recruited in two years, and only 3, maybe 4 are in the best 22. That is mass topping up. The plus side is that those players have generally been very cheap.

[Dis Believer]

That's a somewhat disingenious way of putting things MSG.

3 of those players were redrafted SAints - one being demoted to the rookie list and Gtrain who wouldn't have come into the equation other than for a change of heart.

And 3 more of those "recycled" players are ruckmen spoecifically grabbed to try and fill our most glaring deficiency, with one of them playing for a year and another grabbed to replace the one year player.

How you choose to portray this can be very subjective and completely unrelated to the context of when events occurred.

[Red]

I keep hearing people saying this is such a good list and then after a game

these same people bag half the players in the side. Fact is this team won't

win a premiership. In two years time the gold coast side will get the pick of

the draft and we will struggle to gain quality kids.

This side has gone backwards since 04/05 and it is a damn shame because

unlike others I don't want to have to support a team that is happy to make

up the numbers in the finals.

[The Fireman]

With the list we had why wouldn't you top up?
We were cherry ripe for a tilt, I would have topped up.
Injuries didn't play a positive part in our plans and remains a real bug bear for us. Well.....

[Red]

topped up with the wrong players

[The Fireman]

topped up with the wrong players

we needed rucks...what was wrong with getting King and Gardiner???? on the cheap as well.?????
Which ones were the wrong ones?

[Red]

We'll see how long and how many games we get out of them.

[The Fireman]

We'll see how long and how many games we get out of them.

yes we will, in the meantime why do you think it was a bad decision to fill our ruck positions with proven ruckmen to compliment a list that has the potential of winning us a flag?

[Red]

That's the difference between your thoughts and mine. I believe this side

is past it's best just as I think these two ruckmen are. I feel that people

overrate certain players in this list. How many A grade players do you think

we have?

[The Fireman]

That's the difference between your thoughts and mine. I believe this side

is past it's best just as I think these two ruckmen are. I feel that people

overrate certain players in this list. How many A grade players do you think

we have?

when the selections were made did you think the list was capable? or do you think we have been incapable for how many years?

PS The difference between my thoughts and yours may be massive but theres no need to bring that up. Is there?

[derby Street]

Nobody can dispute we needed rucks - we went and got them. What was the option ?

[bob__71]

Yet we have still seen blake in the ruck...and kossi....

[spert]

I believe Lyon got the best he could for the club with what was available -S.King is not long term, but a BOG ruckman in a grand final is not a bad pickup a couple of months later -for a team who is struggling in ruck. Many recycled players go on and do better in other clubs, and some don't.
I remember Greg Williams was regarded as a bit of a plodder and too slow at Geelong, but went on to play in a premiership for Carlton. Charlie Gardiner for example was never a star or a key-position player, but a good half forward at Geelong, and he will be a good useful forward for us, same goes for Schnieder, who can be swung into the midfield. M.Gardiner is one of those pickups that coaches take a punt with and hope can contribute due to their skills and size alone, sometimes it works.
We have to come to grips that we have players who came in during Thomas's reign, who are not reaching their supposed or expected star potential for various reasons, and others are getting older and slower. Lyon will no doubt make some tough decisions in the second half of this season if it looks like we are missing the finals -though I think we will make the finals, but the pressure is on some players who need a kick up the bum.

[rodgerfox]

Geelong 'topped' up with Ottens.

Hawthorn 'topped' up with Dew and Croad.

The Bulldogs 'topped' up with Marsh and Aker.

North have 'topped' up for a while.

Collingwood try to 'top up' every year.

Sydney do top up every year.

So do Adelaide.

West Coast topped up with Stenglein and Chick.


What's the issue with topping up?

It's like playing Deal or No Deal. You might get a star in the draft, but you might also get 50c. Some coaches prefer to take the $46,500 deal. It's not the $200k you might fluke in the draft, but it's much better than getting Luke Livingston with your prized pick 6.

With our core of players, we have the luxury of going either way.

Thomas believed (I think) that with our core of drafted players all dedicated to the club long term, that we had the talent on our list to keep us in the 8 for another 5 years. Therefore, you add young 'top ups' to plug holes and give depth during that period (and please, let's not forget that if not for injuries to Hamill, Peckett, Kosi, Goddard, X, Ackland, Sam Fisher and others in the prelim of 05, it would have worked)

Lyon obviously feels very similar. He hasn't traded any of our 'stars' in two pre-seasons for draft picks or established players. So he obviously feels we have the goods.

He has definately 'topped up'.

All his draftees, are long termers. If you don't believe you have the core to win the flag, you draft long term and unload good players for draft picks - or young stars.

We've done neither.

[terry smith rules]

I think this subject is hilarious.

I would love to go back and see what everone was saying 10 weeks ago.

This site was full of people saying how much depth we had and how this list was so exciting.

Now here we are sitting 5th at 4 and 3. Losing to 2 of the top 3 sides and one of last years grand finalists.

and suddenly we are not good enough.

ask yourselves one question, are your expectations too high.

in reality we are a team that took on anew coach last year and finished out of the 8, then based on goodness knows what, come february we are suddenly second favourite for the flag, ask yourself why?

support your team

fqf

[congorozides]

Don't we have 9 new players that weren't there in 2006?

I'd say we are rebuilding.

9 since 2006? let me see

schneider, king, dempster, armitage, c gardner...

birss?

thats 6 and besides schenider - they are all fringe players at best.

[rodgerfox]

Don't we have 9 new players that weren't there in 2006?

I'd say we are rebuilding.

9 since 2006? let me see

schneider, king, dempster, armitage, c gardner...

birss?

thats 6 and besides schenider - they are all fringe players at best.

Doesn't matter whether they're Brownlow favourites or in the Casey 2s, we have introduced at least 9 players since Lyon took over.

That's alot.

That's basically a rebuild.


The OP was declaring this list is no good so we need to rebuild. I was pointing out that we pretty much have already.

[spert]

King a fringe player???

[terry smith rules]

King a fringe player???

and Schneider not

talk about expectations and hype, your would think Schneider was a gun

still has alot to prove

[congorozides]

Has Lyon "topped" up or simply recruited ti fill obvious holes? aka ruck?

Players recruited from AFL clubs under Lyon

Shane Birss
Michael Gardiner
Matthew Ferguson
Matthew Clarke
James Wall (r)
Jayden Attard (r)
Adam Schneider
Sean Dempster
Steven King
Charlie Gardiner
Fraser Gehrig
Andrew McQualter (r)

There's 12 recycled players (3 rookies) recruited in two years, and only 3, maybe 4 are in the best 22. That is mass topping up. The plus side is that those players have generally been very cheap.

you get what u pay for

[congorozides]

King a fringe player???

and Schneider not

talk about expectations and hype, your would think Schneider was a gun

still has alot to prove

schenider is good.

king gets a game because we dont have any rucks. i agree he has been a good pick up but hes not a saints 100 game player.

how many new players will play 100 game for the saints? probably none except schenider.

[rodgerfox]

you get what u pay for

And that's a key point.

Thomas, and Lyon haven't traded players.

This means they are happy with our list - at least it's core.

If there are glaring holes that will prevent you from winning a flag, if you're fair dinkum, you trade for it.

Obviously in Lyon's eyes, our list is sound enough to simply top up.

Our list is sound.

Our best 22 is as good as any.

[terry smith rules]

King a fringe player???

and Schneider not

talk about expectations and hype, your would think Schneider was a gun

still has alot to prove

schenider is good.


how many new players will play 100 game for the saints? probably none except schenider.

so you caught his turnovers on saturday night?