BJ and raph being played out of position

Solar · Post: # 561506Post **Solar** » Mon 05 May 2008 8:55pm

Ok I will make one concession first up, the injuries caused raph to be pushed back, especially with the injury to dempster.

Why does Lyon persist with allowing the opposition to pull these two into positions that not only stifle their attacking attributes but place them into positions (FB/BP) that they are not naturally attuned to. I understand that BJ should keep to his player while the ball is with the opposition but for huge periods of the game he is pulled back to FB. It's no suprise that his best game was when he was allowed to drift from HB to HF, setting up play. Since then against port and tigers his oppenant drags him to the defensive goal square and the coaching box refuses to give him the cut out. This only came very late in the game where he followed brown into the centre square.

The coaching box needs to start using some of the players as attacking options and have options to go to when they are dragged back.

hAyES · Post: # 561510Post **hAyES** » Mon 05 May 2008 8:59pm

Raph shouldn't be in the team full stop. He's incapable of making a decision and when he does, it's always the wrong one. But I agree with you about Goddard. I think he should be played in the midfield which is where you want players that can use the ball as well as he does. Anyone remember how well he played in '06 after Hayes went out and he played in the midfield? We need to see Ross try it.

iwantmeseats · Mon 05 May 2008 9:05pm

Id like to see him maybe leaning towards more of an outside mid when appropriate. Could do some damage.

Bernard Shakey · Mon 05 May 2008 9:09pm

hAyES you obviously have not been to or watched any St Kilda games this year, if you think Raph always makes the wrong decision.

Raph is on the the verge of making a lot of people on this site look stupid.

Having said that, I agree with Solar that BJ and Raph are being played out of position. They both need to be attacking playmakers. Raph needs to be on the wing or forward of it and BJ should never have to go beyond half back.

borderbarry · Mon 05 May 2008 10:03pm

There is a lot of animosity towards Raph on this Site. I have it at home too with both my sons. Against the Tigers, he got tackled and he was theworst player in history, never mind he laid 6 tackles himself. They accused him of being slow etc when he could'nt see any Saints in front of him on several occasions. He had 19 possessions, mucked up about 3. He was miles ahead of other players with single figure possessions. What about a bit of credit where it is due.

ace · Post: # 561583Post **ace** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:11pm

Lyon is obstinate and inflexible.

maverick · Post: # 561584Post **maverick** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:12pm

Totally agree on BJ, this is a big bug bear of mine.

He is the perfect flanker, who reads the ball well, a good mark for his size and the best kick in our side by a long way.

Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me.

I would rather see Rix, Gwilt or even Ferguson at FB than BJ, it just hurts us more than it plugs a hole.

Raph, I think may be a bit different, I think the coaching panel is trying to teach a defensive side to his game as his career formulates, releasing him as a running back or wing/HF.

Spinner · Post: # 561585Post **Spinner** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:12pm

Agree.

Both are probably the answer to the missing HFF that we so dearly miss.

plugger66 · Post: # 561587Post **plugger66** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:16pm

maverick wrote:Totally agree on BJ, this is a big bug bear of mine.

He is the perfect flanker, who reads the ball well, a good mark for his size and the best kick in our side by a long way.

Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me.

I would rather see Rix, Gwilt or even Ferguson at FB than BJ, it just hurts us more than it plugs a hole.

Raph, I think may be a bit different, I think the coaching panel is trying to teach a defensive side to his game as his career formulates, releasing him as a running back or wing/HF.

I think that he may have a very slow turning circle which is a problem on the forward line. As for Raph he is to slow and not smart enough to play on the forward line.

maverick · Post: # 561591Post **maverick** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:20pm

plugger66 wrote:
maverick wrote:Totally agree on BJ, this is a big bug bear of mine.

He is the perfect flanker, who reads the ball well, a good mark for his size and the best kick in our side by a long way.

Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me.

I would rather see Rix, Gwilt or even Ferguson at FB than BJ, it just hurts us more than it plugs a hole.

Raph, I think may be a bit different, I think the coaching panel is trying to teach a defensive side to his game as his career formulates, releasing him as a running back or wing/HF.
I think that he may have a very slow turning circle which is a problem on the forward line. As for Raph he is to slow and not smart enough to play on the forward line.

Yeah, possibly, but I think he really improved aerobically before he did his ACL last year, and will again next year. His turning circle and 1 on 1 work are his weaknesses...

Also agree on Raph but i think his footy smarts can be worked on by playing down back, but maybe its more in hope....

ace · Post: # 561592Post **ace** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:20pm

BorderBarry is right about Raph - he mucked three times but he saved his team mates bacon many more times. He cleaned and a linked up often.
I was at the match and then watched the full replay.
There were a few occassions where he stood the mark where a teammate had given away the mysterious free, and he was outmarked by Richardson a few times. Was Richardson his opponent? If he was then blame Lyon.
Raph did far more than his fair share. If everyone had competed as much as Raph the game would have been won with a quarter to go.

Eastern · Post: # 561610Post **Eastern** » Mon 05 May 2008 10:56pm

I don't know where people get this theory that Raph is slow. His leg speed would in the top 10 at the club (he looks slow, but he takes very very long strides). I'll admit that his decision making makes him look like a startled rabbit in the spotlight sometimes, but he aint slow !!

hAyES · Post: # 561643Post **hAyES** » Mon 05 May 2008 11:30pm

I've watched every game this year, and I've been to all the ones in Melbourne. I would love to see any of you would act if Raph played for another team. This guy is close to the worst player in the AFL but because he plays for St. Kilda, people keep giving him chance after chance after chance. Sad really.

*Waits for b4e to come in and say "fair dinkum give him a chance FFS!"*

Buckets · Post: # 561648Post **Buckets** » Mon 05 May 2008 11:42pm

borderbarry wrote:There is a lot of animosity towards Raph on this Site. I have it at home too with both my sons. Against the Tigers, he got tackled and he was theworst player in history, never mind he laid 6 tackles himself. They accused him of being slow etc when he could'nt see any Saints in front of him on several occasions. He had 19 possessions, mucked up about 3. He was miles ahead of other players with single figure possessions. What about a bit of credit where it is due.

But we can give credit to someone who we dont want in the team!
I agree he was good on Saturday, yeah he made mistakes but he did some good things as well!!!!!
To the OP i hope both get a go down forward over the next month or so i reckon our problem dealing with the missing HFF position could possibly be solved! Raph in particular could make a few people on here look very very silly if he gets to play a position that suits his ability!

Saint Bev · Post: # 561649Post **Saint Bev** » Mon 05 May 2008 11:43pm

YOu are right, Raph is being played out of position. He should be played in the VFL where he would be brilliant.

The Peanut · Tue 06 May 2008 12:18am

oh yet another thread hijacked by the Raph baggers ... gives a new meaning to the word supporter.

Solar · Post: # 561663Post **Solar** » Tue 06 May 2008 12:19am

Saint Bev wrote:YOu are right, Raph is being played out of position. He should be played in the VFL where he would be brilliant.

I've meet you saint bev and respect your passion for the saints. But this type of comment really adds nothing to the conversation. He set up at least 3-4 goals as an attacking half forward/on baller. Then he was forced into the backline where he battled manfully when we lost players to injury.

On goddard I just think that he is fantastic at setting up play, best kicker in our squad over distance. Yet we are willing to allow him to be pulled back to the goal square. This is poor coaching IMO

The_Dud · Post: # 561665Post **The_Dud** » Tue 06 May 2008 12:27am

with the current injuries in the backline, i wouldn't mind seeing S FIsher play a more traditional FB/CHB role (as much out of neccesity as anything else) and Goddard take over his role rebounding off the backline/spare man back (seeing as it seems Lyon is sticking with that)

Raph, still makes too many mistakes, i think THIS time he is on his last chance, must cement a spot in the team or get rid of him

bigcarl · Post: # 561667Post **bigcarl** » Tue 06 May 2008 12:34am

Buckets wrote:Raph in particular could make a few people on here look very very silly if he gets to play a position that suits his ability!

agree. should be given a stint forward

Otiman · Post: # 561674Post **Otiman** » Tue 06 May 2008 12:42am

Bernard Shakey wrote:Raph is on the the verge of making a lot of people on this site look stupid.

Totally agreed, he's ready to burst out of his bubble, but needs to be coached properly. Not that i'm having a go at the coaches here either, but they obviously thought if they persisted with him down back that he'd come good.

I think it's becoming clear to everyone that Raph aint a backman's bootlace. Throw him forward of centre and he can and will tear apart games.

Raph, my friends, is a gamebreaker. He won't give full 100% gametime at the elite level, but he'll play 5-10 minute bursts that can open a game up for us. It's the kind of impact player we've been missing.

Saint Bev · Post: # 561676Post **Saint Bev** » Tue 06 May 2008 12:46am

Solar wrote:
Saint Bev wrote:YOu are right, Raph is being played out of position. He should be played in the VFL where he would be brilliant.
I've meet you saint bev and respect your passion for the saints. But this type of comment really adds nothing to the conversation. He set up at least 3-4 goals as an attacking half forward/on baller. Then he was forced into the backline where he battled manfully when we lost players to injury.

On goddard I just think that he is fantastic at setting up play, best kicker in our squad over distance. Yet we are willing to allow him to be pulled back to the goal square. This is poor coaching IMO

Hi Solar, yes, enjoyed our afternoon when we met, but, we will have to agree to disagree on Raph. Without making smart arse comments, I just think Raph's biggest problem is that he doesn't play by instinct and it brings him undone. I'm sure he's a great bloke and I have nothing against him personally, but I just can't see him contributing to a St Kilda premiership side, playing the way he does.

As for Goddard, well he is just a joy to watch. Very happy for him that he has been able to come back from injury so well. At least we can agree on that one

bigred · Post: # 561690Post **bigred** » Tue 06 May 2008 1:45am

Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me

have you not seen his field kicking?

60m onto someones chest...THATS why he is playing off half back..

Solar · Post: # 561728Post **Solar** » Tue 06 May 2008 10:07am

bigred wrote:
Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me
have you not seen his field kicking?

60m onto someones chest...THATS why he is playing off half back..

at full back? Where he is more focused on stopping his oppenent? Waste of talent at FB. HB, yes I can agree with that but currently he is pulled back to the goal square a little too much.

Bev, look I agree that he doesn't seem to take the right option right now but he remind me of a player who has played less then 50 games. He is still being taught the game. Unfortunately because of injury and lack of preseasons in the past this teaching period is taking ALOT longer then we had hoped. Watching him run and create during periods of saturday night shows that he is starting to learn the game, thus there were less mistakes and better options made.

IMO he has a huge upside still be to seen. I am more worried about gram presently then raph, just need to play them in their best positions.

Spinner · Post: # 561729Post **Spinner** » Tue 06 May 2008 10:07am

plugger66 wrote:
maverick wrote:Totally agree on BJ, this is a big bug bear of mine.

He is the perfect flanker, who reads the ball well, a good mark for his size and the best kick in our side by a long way.

Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me.

I would rather see Rix, Gwilt or even Ferguson at FB than BJ, it just hurts us more than it plugs a hole.

Raph, I think may be a bit different, I think the coaching panel is trying to teach a defensive side to his game as his career formulates, releasing him as a running back or wing/HF.
I think that he may have a very slow turning circle which is a problem on the forward line. As for Raph he is to slow and not smart enough to play on the forward line.

Not smart enough to play forward?

That scenario doesn't exist.

Solar · Post: # 561733Post **Solar** » Tue 06 May 2008 10:10am

Spinner wrote:
plugger66 wrote:
maverick wrote:Totally agree on BJ, this is a big bug bear of mine.

He is the perfect flanker, who reads the ball well, a good mark for his size and the best kick in our side by a long way.

Why he continually lines up as a key back baffles me.

I would rather see Rix, Gwilt or even Ferguson at FB than BJ, it just hurts us more than it plugs a hole.

Raph, I think may be a bit different, I think the coaching panel is trying to teach a defensive side to his game as his career formulates, releasing him as a running back or wing/HF.
I think that he may have a very slow turning circle which is a problem on the forward line. As for Raph he is to slow and not smart enough to play on the forward line.
Not smart enough to play forward?

That scenario doesn't exist.

It's a strange one because I think that when he is able to be creative he is able to pinpoint and set up forward play very well. Have a look at a couple of goals he set up from the wing saturday night.

plus raph aint that slow, he also works harder then a good majority of our current forward line at present.